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CSGnet Archive CSG2005
21

[From Bill Powers (2005.08.24.0235 MDT)]

Dag Forssell (2005.08.23.0815
PDT) –

Changes to the discussion of
reference, actuators (minor indeed) and input function.

What you say about the input function is that perhaps 90% of perceptions
come from memory. But an input function does not deal with
“perceptions”. One input function produces one perceptual
signal that stands for the amount of one single perception.
What you’re talking about, it seems to me, is memory association. One
perception operates via memory to evoke perceptual signals in
other control systems, not the one in the diagram. Those evoked
perceptions are each compared with their individual reference signals (if
they are controlled perceptions). They are not compared with the
reference signal for the perception that did the initial evoking. All the
evoked perceptions are certainly not bundled together and compared with a
single reference signal. Not, that is, as the model is currently
conceived.

While you’re controlling a given present-time perception, that one
perceptual signal should represent the actual state of a variable in the
environment. Otherwise actions on the environment will not control it
properly. While that is going on, you may be reminded of other
perceptions, but they would exist in other control systems, not the one
doing the controlling “in the foreground”.

It seems to me that the rich production of imagined signals would be most
practical in the passive observation mode, not when control is actually
going on.

Best,

Bill P.

22

[From Bill Powers (2005.08.24.0301 MDT)]

Dag Forssell (2005.08.23.0815 PDT)--

Just one more peanut and I can go back to sleep.

You need memory to recognize each and every letter. Otherwise, "S" is just a couple of dots on your retina.

I think you're skipping over a few levels when you say you need memory to "recognize" something. By "recognize" do you mean saying the name of the letter? You don't need memory to generate a perceptual signal that is unique to the letter S and that can be used to stand for it at higher levels. All you need is a third-order input function. Input functions don't require memory to work (other than fractional-second short-term memory for generating such things as transition signals).

Best,

Bill P.

23

[From Rick Marken (2005.08.24.0850)]

Dag Forssell (2005.08.23.0815 PDT)

Rick Marken (2005.08.23.1345)

I dont see what was changed. Maybe my browser is caching the old version.
Anyway, I still have a problem with the discussion of the input function
because you still seem to be implying that perception depends on memory.

Your perceptions depend hugely on your understanding of PCT, which comes from
your memories, not current input.

I think, as Bill said, that you are talking about memory associations, not
perceptions. See Bill Powers (2005.08.24.0235 MDT).

Maybe all thats needed to fix this is excision of the comments about the
meaning of signals coming from prior experiences stored in memory. While
this is true, it really has nothing to do with the input function, which
simply produces a perceptual signal as a function of lower level sensory and
perceptual inputs.

I don't think there is anything to fix. What I hear you say may be true
at the very lowest levels. You need memory to recognize each and every
letter. Otherwise, "S" is just a couple of dots on your retina.

Again, I like Bill Powers' (2005.08.24.0301 MDT) comment on this:

"You don't need memory to generate a perceptual signal that is unique to
the letter S and that can be used to stand for it at higher levels. All
you need is a third-order input Input functions don't require memory to
work (other than fractional-second short-term memory for generating such
things as transition signals)".

Meaning is a memory phenomenon, not a perceptual phenomenon.

Huh? Based on which science are you speaking?

PCT science. Think of it in terms of the meaning of a perception like the
word "boat". You can see the set of intensities, sensations and
configurations that are the word "boat". But the meaning of that perception
is another perception that is evoked in memory -- the imagined perception of
a boat. So the meaning of the perception "boat" is an evoked memory that
                             >
                           > >
might be something like \____/ .

You seem to be conflating these two phenomena in your discussion of of the
input function. The meaning of a perception comes from its eliciting another
(imagined) perception. So the meaning of the perception penis the remembered
configuration or category perception that is elicited by the word. But the
perception of the word pen has no meaning; it just is what you perceive: the
intensities, sensations, configurations and event that is the written word
pen.

Did you make up all that just now?

No. Bill made it up a long time ago and it just made a lot of sense to me so
I'm repeating it.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

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