What's wrong with schizophrenics?

[From Rick Marken (2009.05.06.1150)]

Bruce Abbott (2009,05,06,1330 EDT)--

The notion that emotions are nothing more than perceptions of changes in our
physiological state (e.g., trembling hands, racing heart) doesn't cut it:

I agree. But that's not the PCT theory of emotion, as I understand it.
I'd say that the main difference between the PCT model of emotion and
the one you state above is that PCT views the perception of an emotion
as being based on changes in physiological state and the goal not
being achieved that is driving those physiological changes. This is
basically what Schachter found, right?

Now, what evidence does Bill call on to support his contention that emotion
systems do not exist?

Mostly anecdotal, like yours. See Bill Powers (2009.05.06.0906 MDT).
But the PCT explanation makes a great deal more sense to me than
yours. That's because your explanations are a bit too S-R for my
taste. For example, you say:

When we experience an emotion,
we not only experience those physiological changes, we become highly focused
on certain inputs from the environment and begin to act in ways that impel
us toward particular goals.

At best, this explanation says that the focus on certain inputs
happens by magic; at worst, it implies that the physiological change
causes the focus (S-R). If it's the latter, then how does the
physiology know which inputs to focus on? Aren't those inputs related
to the reason for the physiological changes themselves? It seems like
they often are (the sight of the lion is associated with the
physiological changes resulting from our desperate efforts to get the
hell away). PCT handles all this stuff in a nice, non-magical way,
without the need for all kinds of extra assumptions. The explanation
of many emotion phenomena falls out of PCT rather nicely, without the
need for a lot of post hoc additions to the model. It would be nice to
think of some more tests of the model, though. Any ideas?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.05.06.1232 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009,05,06,1330 EDT) --

The notion that emotions are nothing more than perceptions of changes in our
physiological state (e.g., trembling hands, racing heart) doesn't cut it: As
the physiologists Walter Cannon noted long ago, many emotional states
involve very similar physiological adjustments that are difficult to
discriminate purely based on how they feel. When we experience an emotion,
we not only experience those physiological changes, we become highly focused
on certain inputs from the environment and begin to act in ways that impel
us toward particular goals. When we experience fear, we pay close attention
to potential or actual sources of threat and attempt to neutralize that
threat through behavioral means, whether by hiding, by running away, or by
attacking the source of the threat. Animals across an extremely wide range
of species exhibit species-typical actions that occur to various types of
threat, and we humans have no trouble recognizing the signs of fear in many
animals not too distant from us on the evolutionary scale. Our own body
language when subjectively experiencing various emotions is relatively
little affected by experience and is seen universally across all human
cultures. Some of these are present at birth and others emerge early in
development. Even those born blind exhibit them. Fear, anger, jealousy,
love, grief, happiness, disgust all have distinct subjective feelings to
them as different from each other as the colors of the rainbow. Each appears
under different rather specific conditions, focuses attention on specific
aspects of the situation, and tends to activate specific desires and actions
that seem tailored to deal with the situation the person is facing.

Now, what evidence does Bill call on to support his contention that emotion
systems do not exist?

BP: I think you have misunderstood my proposed model, if you think it only proposes a source of the feelings that go with emotions. To be sure, it needed that to account for the way we experience emotions, but the main part of the theory addresses exactly all the points you make.

Consider this from your list: " When we experience fear, we pay close attention to potential or actual sources of threat and attempt to neutralize that threat through behavioral means, whether by hiding, by running away, or by attacking the source of the threat."

All I am saying is that cause and effect run the other way from what you describe. When we pay close attention to potential or actual threats and so on, and prepare for action, one of the preparations that occurs is setting the somatic systems to support a higher state of motor activity; a side-effect of those preparations is that the hierarchy perceives those changes and experiences them as what we call emotional feelings -- fear, in this case, because we are planning to run away or avoid something. The feelings are not specific to any particular emotion, but only to the action that is to be supported. Of course the hierarchy also experiences the control processes themselves -- the desired goal, the disturbances being resisted, and all the rest.

The only obvious flaw in my reversal of cause and effect is the fact that we sometimes experience the feelings of an emotion, and even find ourselves preparing to act, before we are conscious of anything to justify the emotion. In early psychological arguments about this subject, that was the main reason given for proposing the emotion systems were autonomous and inherited. But that is not the only possible explanation.

I resolve this problem by referring to the well-known mobility and selectivity of awareness. In cases where a person is not aware of disturbances when they occur, control systems in the hierarchy can still experience error and initiate changes in lower-level reference signals automatically. Those changes can disturb higher-order systems that are connected with awareness, so the higher systems notice the changes without noticing their causes. In fact the appearance is that of an autonomous system acting on its own, which is the truth: the systems are autonomous in relation to consciousness, but of course not in relation to the hierarchy. That is the only material difference between my view and the more conventional one you cite. I say that what you call the emotion system is simply part of the normal hierarchy, and the feelings that arise when we say an emotion is occurring are also normal aspects of hierarchical error-correcting action. There is, in my view, no separate specialized system designed to have emotions; some level of emotion is part of every control action whether conscious or not.

Notice that we can also consciously initiate heightened states of awareness, consciously detect threats, consciously prepare to avoid or attack, and so on, producing exactly the same changes in action and, through preparing to act (it's called "psyching up" in sports), the same feelings. This is hard to explain under the other proposed model. Furthermore, what we call emotions tend to be noticeable or strong mainly when the action needed to correct an error somehow becomes ineffective or impossible to carry out. Soldiers in combat often remark on the fact that in rapid actions, they may not experience any emotion at all during the actual attacks or retreats, and that the sharpest emotions occur when failure is imminent. The strong emotions seem to arise when then physiological preparation for action is not accompanied by, or immediate followed by, the contemplated action -- when you finally decide to use the escape hatch only to find it locked. When the action actually occurs, and has the intended effect, the state of preparedness seems to be "used up," and the emotion, if felt at all, immediately disappears when the error is corrected.

So I am proposing that emotion is a consequence of an error correcting control process, not a cause of it. Most error-correcting actions require so little preparation for action that we do not speak of emotions in connection with them, though the same somatic states are there in lesser degree, and the same vigilance, approach, or avoidance activities are taking place -- but with smaller errors.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Abbott
(2009.05.06.1810 EDT]

Bill Powers (2009.05.06.0906 MDT)

···


Bruce Abbott (2009.05.05.1830 EDT)
BA: (It does turn out to be relevant for therapy: replacing dopamine in
the basal ganglia reduces the motor rigidity and tremors of Parkinson’s
Disease.)

BP: That’s great, but so what? That’s not a cure. Finding a cure means
discovering what is causing the deficiency in dopamine, and fixing that if
that’s the end of the line, or looking even farther back in the chain until the
REAL reason for the problem is found. There are some rumblings about
“systems biology” in the air, but few signs that it’s getting
anywhere.

I’m with you there. But in the case of
Parkinson’s Disease, the symptoms are known to originate in the loss of dopamine-secreting
neurons that make synaptic connections in the basil ganglia. Patients are
treated by giving them L-DOPA, a precursor of dopamine that is able to cross
the blood-brain barrier where it is synthesized into dopamine in dopaminergic
neurons. This increases the amount of dopamine available for release at the
synapse during each action potential, helping to offset the loss of inhibition
resulting from the loss of neurons. Unfortunately, the afflicted neurons
continue to die off so that ultimately there are insufficient numbers to
maintain the required levels of inhibitions and Parkinson’s symptoms
return.

That much is understood. Unfortunately, no one has yet
figured out what is killing off the neurons. As for a cure, current efforts are
aimed at getting injected replacement cells (e.g., adrenal tissue) to survive
and produce dopamine in the basal ganglia – not a perfect replacement for
the missing neurons but at least replacing some of the missing inhibitory
influence.

The rest of this post deals with
emotion systems; I’ll reply to it and the subsequent one in another post.

Bruce A.

[From Bruce Abbott (2009.05.07.1240
EDT)]

Bill Powers (2009.05.06.0906 MDT) –

Bruce Abbott (2009.05.05.1830 EDT)

BA: We’ve had a discussion
about this before, although it’s been a while. I do believe that we have
emotion systems, which are a part of our inheritance from our evolutionary
past. As I see them, they are innately organized control systems
“designed” to deal with particular situations often faced by our
ancestors over the course of evolution. Certain inputs act as disturbances to
one or another of these systems; the behavioral and physiological
manifestations of a given emotion are the actions that often have been
successful in the evolutionary past in opposing those disturbances.

BP: That sounds convincing until you start asking for details. I won’t argue
against the idea that there are some inherited control systems; at the lowest
levels there are a lot of them. But the concept of a separate set of
“emotional” control systems just doesn’t hold water. How can a
primitive inherited control system know whether there is danger or not? How
does it know anything about the outside world or its relationship to the
organism? Considering all the things we get emotional about, you have to give
these inherited systems all the perceptual levels that are in the PCT
hierarchy, and all the abilities to send reference signals to other control
systems that the hierarchical systems have. When you get done you have two
hierarchies, one learned through reorganization and variable in its properties,
and the other inherited in a fixed form, and interacting in suspicious detail
with the first hierarchy.

I
hadn’t thought of these systems as lying outside the normal control
hierarchy. The question then becomes how they got there, inside the
normal control hierarchy. From my perspective, the cores of these systems
are inherited rather than emerging from random reorganization. Many
animals have a host of innate ways of dealing with challenges in their
environments. Their perceptual systems include mechanisms that recognize when
specific kinds of input are present and generate appropriate actions. For
example, in hungry newly hatched robins, any appropriately sized object seen
looming overhead induces a stereotyped gaping behavior (beak wide open and head
turned up). Normally the object looming over the chick its parent and the
consequence of this action is that the parent drops food into the chick’s
mouth. Here is a fully functional control system that gives the infant bird
some degree of control over its nutrient intake. (In this case it’s a
temporary one that fades away as the chick matures and develops more
independent ways of getting its food.)

As
I see it, emotion systems evolved rather early and have been elaborated, but
not replaced, over the course of evolution. As higher-level cognitive processes
developed, the range of inputs that could serve as disturbances to these
systems enlarged as well as the kinds of actions available as outputs. An
infant experiences fear in a limited range of circumstances; later, experience enlarges
that range. The infant’s actions when error occurs in the fear system
also become more varied and flexible. But the basic system is still there and
still activating the same physiological changes needed to support the vigorous
physical actions that characterized the output of the primitive system. So, for
example, a student must give a talk and interprets this situation as
threatening. (What if I perform badly and look foolish in front of my peers?)
This interpretation of this situation as threatening acts to disturb the fear
system, which among other preparations changes the reference levels of various
physiological systems, producing a racing heartbeat, increased breathing rate,
and tremors in the limbs and vocal apparatus, among other effects. The person
has difficulty focusing on the speech. The result is that these changes
make it far more difficult for the student to deliver the speech smoothly and
competently.

So
here is an example of the actions of an emotion system interfering with other
systems of the control hierarchy. Such effects are well known – people
often experience such effects as “taking over” their behavior and,
consequently, we learn techniques to suppress these actions when they interfere
with our ability to maintain control over other variables.

BP: What my proposal about emotion does is to eliminate all the problems of
duplication of and conflict between functions that are raised by the idea of an
inherited emotion system. We don’t have to explain how the emotion system can
recognize a lion, see that it is in a cage, and not be afraid, or see that it
is loose and cause the legs to run like mad, presumably wresting control of the
legs away from the hierarchical systems that had been using them. If you
propose that the emotion system reaches into the hierarchy and alters the
reference signals for running, you have to explain why the learned systems
don’t simply cancel out that disturbance. You’re trying to fit an old idea
about emotions into the PCT system, and it just doesn’t work.

In
my proposal, as I’ve already noted, these systems are part of the normal
control hierarchy. In PCT, each level in the hierarchy contains a myriad of
control systems, all of which, if they produce observable behavior, must ultimately
produce changes in the skeletal musculature. If two systems controlling
different variables are organized to use the same (or an overlapping) set of
muscles to maintain that control, then conflict results. To function
effectively, the systems must reorganize so as to use different sets of muscles
or be employed sequentially rather than simultaneously. This potential for
conflict between systems is an inherent property of the hierarchy. Introducing
emotion systems alongside the other systems occupying multiple levels in the
hierarchy does not create any additional problems not present a purely learned
hierarchy, so far as I can see at present.

BA: For example, either innately or because of prior experience we may
interpret certain conditions as threatening. This perception of threat is
opposed by what might be called a “threat control system” whose
reference is to keep perceived threats close to zero. When threat perception
rises above this reference, this error produces behavioral outputs (e.g.,
running away from the source of the threat) and physiological changes to
support vigorous behavior such as running or self defense. (The latter outputs
are generated by changing the references of appropriate lower-level systems.)

BP: Doesn’t that sound very much like something the learned hierarchy of
control systems does? Why do you need a built-in system to recognize threats
when you already have a learned one that can do the same thing – and how do
you explain the fact that most threats are not initially reacted to as threats?
Children happily trot out into traffic in ways that would scare them to death a
few years later. Do those inherited emotional control systems have to learn
about traffic, about the bogeyman, about strangers offering candy, about sharp
knives in the hands of maniacs, and so on? And if that is true, aren’t we just
talking about the one hierarchy of perception and control that is already
posited in PCT? Exactly what does the idea of an emotion system add?

It’s
very much like something the learned hierarchy of control systems does. The
question of why you need a built-in system to recognize threats and organize
actions appropriate to dealing with them can be addressed in at least three
ways. First, at least a primitive version of the system allows the organism
to have an organized and potentially adaptive way of dealing with certain kinds
of threat from the outset, before there has been much opportunity to learn.
(Infants in the crawling stage, for example, have an innate ability to
recognize sharp drop-offs and will refuse to crawl off the edge of one, as
shown many years ago by the “visual cliff” experiments (http://encarta.msn.com/media_461547576/visual_cliff_experiment.html
). Second, it may provide a kind of scaffolding on which a more capable system
can be elaborated. Third, as I see it, the evidence strongly indicates that
such a system is present and operates in much the same way across individuals
and even to a large degree across species. (So, even if it weren’t “needed”
on theoretical grounds, I believe that it is needed on empirical ones.)

BP: I think the idea of a separate emotional system arose because awareness is
not always connected to all control systems at all levels. Control systems
operating outside awareness, automatically, can still react to disturbances by
adjusting reference signals in lower system, so when awareness is engaged
elsewhere, it would seem that the reactions were caused from outside somewhere.
If a change in biochemical state accompanied the automatic motor reactions to
disturbances, the first the systems currently in the conscious mode would know
about it would be a set of bodily sensations and awareness of some automatic
action taking place. Of course attention would quickly go to the problem and
all the “reactions” would then appear as normal control behavior.
Doesn’t that cover all the evidence anyone has ever come up with for the
existence of an independent emotion system?

Yes,
but this suggestion does not argue against the sort of system I’m
suggesting, which is part of the normal control hierarchy but whose
organization depends more on innate factors and less on random reorganization
than some other parts of the hierarchy presumably do.

One thing I believe is important
to keep in mind about the process of evolution is that it builds upon the
products of previous evolution. A future engineer with enough knowledge about
the human brain might be able to design an artificial brain that could do all
the same things the human one does. Almost certainly, the designed brain would
have a far more rational structure than the natural one. The natural brain is
more like an early clock whose inventor started with a basic design which was
then found to perform poorly. So the inventor starts adding components to compensate
for various factors. After many additions, the clock now keeps accurate time
despite changes in temperature, movements, and so on. Some of the
additions are there to compensate for deficiencies created by some of the
earlier additions. Based on the lessons learned in building this clock, the
inventor could now build a simpler watch that would achieve the same accuracy. Our
brains, as products of a long evolutionary history, are more like that early
clock than the cleaner design of the inventor. From this perspective, it is
more likely that we will find that real brains have built upon and modified
existing prior innately-programmed structures rather than developing purely
under the direction of a random reorganization process (beyond the first
levels).

BA: A detailed model of all this
would be more complex than this condensed description suggests. For
example, what is perceived as threatening may involve a complex calculation
that includes one’s own capabilities, availability of weapons, etc.
Because learning is involved, the actual behaviors engaged in may be quite
diverse. (I could generate other descriptions suitable for other emotion
systems, such as those involved in the experiences of anger, grief, curiosity,
love, and so on, but this example gives the general flavor of the approach.)

BP: But now you’re not talking about an emotion system: that’s just the normal
hierarchy of control systems you’re describing. I’ve taken care of the feeling
component by proposing that motor actions are accompanied by adjustments of the
endocrine and other control systems, so what is left to account for?

Surely you’re not proposing that an inherited system separate from the PCT
hierarchy can perceive capabilities, availability of weapons, and other
things that an inherited system could not possibly know about, are you? With
what eyes would such a system see weapons? With what brain would it assess
capabilities? How could it seize control of reference signals for lower
systems without coming into conflict with the learned systems?

As
should be clear by now, that’s not what I’m proposing.

BA: So, what do you find objectionable about this conception of emotion
systems? It’s still turtles, er, control systems all the way down.

BP: All I object to is the idea that you need something other than the one
hierarchy of control that we talk about in PCT. In my proposal, what we experience
as and label as emotion arises naturally in the course of normal behavior, as a
consequence of error signals and the actions that follow from them. I have
added only the idea that when actions are called for, the state of the body is
also adjusted as appropriate to the action, and that we feel the result of that
as a change in feeling state.

It
looks to me that we may be much closer together on this than may have been
apparent at the beginning of this discussion.

Bruce
A.

[From Bruce Abbott (2009.05.07.1420 EDT)]

Rick Marken (2009.05.06.1150) --

Bruce Abbott (2009,05,06,1330 EDT)

The notion that emotions are nothing more than perceptions of changes
in our physiological state (e.g., trembling hands, racing heart) doesn't

cut it:

RM: I agree. But that's not the PCT theory of emotion, as I understand it.
I'd say that the main difference between the PCT model of emotion and the
one you state above is that PCT views the perception of an emotion as being
based on changes in physiological state and the goal not being achieved that
is driving those physiological changes. This is basically what Schachter
found, right?

What Stanley Schachter found is that, when the situation was ambiguous,
perceptible changes in physiological state (produced by an injection of
Adrenalin, in the case of Schachter's experiment) and environmental cues
provided by the behavior of the other participant in the room (who was
actually not a participant but a stooge of the experimenter feigning either
anger or euphoria) led the actual participant to interpret the physiological
changes as a result of an emotion, specifically a milder level the emotion
displayed by the stooge. Without the physiological changes, the participant
did not believe that he or she was experiencing an emotion. This actually
supports my point that the physiological changes alone are not enough to
define the subjective feeling of an emotion.

Now, what evidence does Bill call on to support his contention that
emotion systems do not exist?

RM: Mostly anecdotal, like yours. See Bill Powers (2009.05.06.0906 MDT).
But the PCT explanation makes a great deal more sense to me than yours.
That's because your explanations are a bit too S-R for my taste. For
example, you say:

When we experience an emotion,
we not only experience those physiological changes, we become highly
focused on certain inputs from the environment and begin to act in
ways that impel us toward particular goals.

RM: At best, this explanation says that the focus on certain inputs happens
by magic; at worst, it implies that the physiological change causes the
focus (S-R). If it's the latter, then how does the physiology know which
inputs to focus on? Aren't those inputs related to the reason for the
physiological changes themselves? It seems like they often are (the sight of
the lion is associated with the physiological changes resulting from our
desperate efforts to get the hell away). PCT handles all this stuff in a
nice, non-magical way, without the need for all kinds of extra assumptions.
The explanation of many emotion phenomena falls out of PCT rather nicely,
without the need for a lot of post hoc additions to the model. It would be
nice to think of some more tests of the model, though. Any ideas?

What I gave above is not an explanation, which is why it seems to you to
work by magic. It's a description of what happens when an emotion system's
outputs are strongly activated (in my experience, at least). I'm fairly
confident we could develop a model that would account for these changes
without violating basic PCT principles, but that's an empirical question
that cannot be resolved via mere verbal debate.

You assert that "the explanation of many emotional phenomena falls out of
PCT rather nicely," but that is a statement of faith and not based, so far
as I can tell, on any actual attempt to explain these emotional phenomena
using PCT. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I'd like to see some
working models that demonstrate this as opposed to a statement of faith.
Particularly challenging, I suspect, would be models of "positive" emotions
such as love. And before any models are built, we'd have to agree what
phenomena (both subjective and objective) any such model would have to
reproduce.

Bruce A.