What's your point?

[From Rick Marken (930504.1800)]

Oded Maler (930504) --

I believe you and believe that you believe you are doing your best.

What do you believe we believe we are doing?

I said:

The notion
that any person's opinions or actions can have anything to do with
what is really or objectively true, better or possible is the stuff
that ideological maniacs are made of.

I don't see how the
control-of-percetion kind of talk is the best way to speak about such
matters. I don't say it is not,

I'm having some difficulty understanding your point. PCT is not a way
of talking about social conflict -- it is a model of the individuals
who are involved in that conflict: and it has been shown to be an
accurate model of the kinds of social conflict (and cooperation) that
we see occuring in the "real world". We have not put guns in the
hands of our lab subjects, so we have not exactly duplicated many of
the conseuqences of conflict that we see actually happening in places
like Bosnia. But we are extrapolating based on real experimental results
and the behavior of a real model. If you have some better way of "talking
about such matters" then could you share it with us? That's what the
net is supposed to be about -- exploring ideas. You do say:

but to me it seems that there is an
incredible gap between the lower-levels and higher-level perceptual

This at least sounds like the start of an alternative to a PCT explanation;
why does it "seem that there is an incredible gap"? What evidence is there
that higher level variables are not controlled like lower level one's
(I would count Bill's demonstration of the use of "the test" on Greg W.
as evidence that higher level variables are controlled just like lower
level ones -- ie. a preferred value of such a variable is set by the
person themselves and precisely defended against disturbance; actions
vary, as needed, to prevent the disturbance from having much of an effect
on the controlled perception).

It sounds to me like you would prefer that PCT not be applicable to
understanding how people deal with political typr perceptions. Or
perhaps you would prefer that PCT modellers not speculate about
how PCT might relate to these really important things. Do you think that
PCT is just not up to dealing with these complex, political issues?
Why? Better yet, what do you see as the better approach? Why do you think
it's better than PCT; what's your evidence?