"when coercion is happening"

i.kurtzer (990504.2230)

>From Bill Powers (990503.1034 MDT)]

>Note that countercontrol is not possible when coercion is happening: the
>means of acting is no longer B's to vary.

Does this then mean that coercion does not occur when countercontrol is taking
place?
And does the above not assume that B's coerced CV is B's only way of acting?

i.

[From Bill Powers (990505.1224 MDT)]

i.kurtzer (990504.2230) --

Does this then mean that coercion does not occur when countercontrol is

taking

place? And does the above not assume that B's coerced CV is B's only way

of >acting?

If countercontrol is taking place, the conditions required for absolute
control of another's actions are not present. You can't exert
countercontrol if you can't vary your actions on pain of torture or death.

Isaac, I don't think you're clearly visualizing what a true case of
determined coercion looks like. You think there is some way out of it;
there isn't, except to make sure you are never subjected to it. Most people
who are captured, imprisoned, and abused do not escape or avoid the abuse
or find ways to do what they please despite their captors. A few do; most
don't. Most stay in confinement and do as they are told until they die or
are released. Only others, who remain free of domination and physical
control, can do anything to change the situation. The martyrs inspire those
who remain uncontrolled; those who are still being dominated and having
their wills nullified simply succumb.

We're talking about things that are truly evil, that are so outside normal
human interactions that they have led people to believe in the implacable
Enemy, Satan. Most people who coerce others will finally back off if called
upon to carry their control of another to its logical conclusion. They
can't really be coercers without destroying their own self-respect. How
often would a real teacher, especially an RTP teacher in the special room,
carry the scenario all the way to calling the guards and having the child
forcibly removed from the school? That would be a terrible defeat, with
future relations with that child all but destroyed, and probably sleepless
nights ahead while the teacher worries about what is being done to the
child. No normal person could carry coercion all the way.

But some people are so far from normal that all one can do is hope never to
fall into their grasp. Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!

Best,

Bill P.