Why adopt a different theory?

From Greg Williams (920105 - 2)

Rick Marken (920105.0800)

I completely agree. Greg's "devil's advocacy" shows that if people don't
want to believe in control, they don't have to.

Which begs the question: why might they want to? I think they would want to if
PCT allowed them to solve problems which they already want to solve but cannot
solve without PCT. Note that this involves BOTH (1) what nonPCTers want (over
which PCTers have NO control, only influence -- sez PCT) AND (2) what kinds of
problems PCT is capable of solving (over which PCTers DO have control, within
limits). To date, I've seen more emphasis on trying to influence nonPCTers to
change their notions about what problems are important than on trying to use
PCT to solve the problems nonPCTers are having problems with.

No amount of evidence can "demolish" someone's world view; people who wanted
to view the earth as a fixed sphere at the center of the universe had no
trouble dealing with evidence suggesting that it was not...

And today, most people (including me, most of the time) could care less about
this -- until they need to solve certain kinds of problems. Then, the fixed
central earth idea fails miserably as an aid. So (to return once more to the
Sixties resonance), I suggest that PCTers ask not what nonPCTers should do for
PCT, ask what PCT should do for nonPCTers. More succinctly, but definitely not
very Sixties-ish, at least as I recall the Sixties: don't waste time arguing,
beat 'em at THEIR OWN game. Beating them at YOUR game is guaranteed to merit a
"so what?"

As ever,

Greg

[From Rick Marken (920105.1800)]

Greg Williams (920105 - 2) --

I think they would want to [change to PCT] if
PCT allowed them to solve problems which they already want to solve but cannot
solve without PCT.

To date, I've seen more emphasis on trying to influence nonPCTers to
change their notions about what problems are important than on trying to use
PCT to solve the problems nonPCTers are having problems with.

This is indeed a big problem. But it's not that PCTers are arguing that
the problems of the nonPCTers and unimportant; just that they may not be
problems at all, or problems only because they are looking at behavior
the wrong way. Just today I was asked to help with a task at work that
involved trying to find a "reliable and valid test instrument" that could
be used to ascess some behavioral variables. Well, there is a problem;
how can PCT help solve it? First I could point out that the
tests are useless unless the reliabilities are on the order of .99. There
are no such tests and right off hand I don't know how to design them.
I think they are just barking up the completely wrong tree simply because
this is the conventional way of dealing with things (by the way, I will
help with this task -- because they are paying me to do it -- I will
statistically evaluate their data until their hair turns blue -- and if
possible I will gently suggest that maybe the whole exercise is useless.
But I can't tell them how PCT can help them solve their problem--designing
a more reliable and valid test--because 1) I don't know and 2) I think the
answer would require a major shift in the direction of the whole effort --
away from what they consider their problem).

Beating them at YOUR game is guaranteed to merit a
"so what?"

But part of the problem is that PCT says that much of their game
is based on an illusion -- or at least a misconception. So it's
not that simple to just say "watch, we can solve your problem". As
I said above -- many of their problems are simply not problems from
a PCT perspective.

I'm also surprised that you're saying this given your experience
with "Science"; you offered a model that solved a problem that was
only partially solved (and inelegantly, at that) by some "biggies"
in the field of motor behavior; was anyone interested in it?

I have done research which could be seen as providing a solution
(or, at least, the start of a solution) to some problems of concern
to psychologists -- the problem of how to coordinate actions in a
disturbance prone environment. My "Degrees of freedom" paper explained
the solution to two specific "problems" (and called such) in motor
behavior psychology; the paper was published -- but I have never seen
any use of the approach in recent editions of the Journal of Motor Behavior
or any other place where one might expect to find motor behavior
problem solvers solving problems.

I know that you believe that PCTers should spend more time showing what
they can do to help the nonPCTer and less time saying what the nonPCTer
can't do. That sounds GREAT -- but I have tried it -- earnestly -- with
virtually no success. Bill has done it too -- look at the 1971 Behavioral
Science paper, for example -- a beautiful model of operant behavior that
predicted the data to within 1% (as I recall) and not a SINGLE reference
to it in the operant literature.

Maybe a shotgun approach might help; why don't you describe all the
problems you know about (in any field) that PCT might help with.
Then we could try to solve ALL those problems and maybe a person
dealing with ONE of those problems will notice. I'm really interested
in knowing what these PROBLEMS are that people need to have solved?
What if they are problems like "how does reinforcement strengthen
behavior"? Do you think they would really want to know the solution
to THAT problem?

Best

Rick

[Martin Taylor 930105 22:40]
(Rick Marken 920105.1800)

Just today I was asked to help with a task at work that
involved trying to find a "reliable and valid test instrument" that could
be used to ascess some behavioral variables. Well, there is a problem;
how can PCT help solve it? First I could point out that the
tests are useless unless the reliabilities are on the order of .99. There
are no such tests and right off hand I don't know how to design them.

It seems to me that you (and Gary Cziko some weeks ago) are confounding two
issues: (1) what is going on in the tested person, and (2) what is the
tester controlling for. Both of you in different ways argue that the
statistical approach in the test of reliabilities less than 0.99 is
pointless. Maybe it is, when you are dealing with the tested person
(though I hold my options open to disagree later). But when you are
dealing with the tester, the controlled variable may be something like
"how many people exceed a criterion of success" in education or handling
a complex instrument, or whatever. Generally speaking, the reference
level for this variable might be 100%, so anything that increases the
proportion is an action that forms part of the tester's functioning
control system. They usually don't want to reduce the proportion of
success if it is, say 90% and they were hoping for 80%, so it is only
a one-sided control most of the time.

The tester may have a conflicted control system (and often does). To get
100% passes {ay be possible, but only a great cost, and the tester also
has a reference level that the cost be zero. So the two tester control
systems conflict, resulting in less than 100% pass rate of the testees
and greater than zero cost for whatever they do to the testees to improve
the pass rate.

All of what goes on in the tester relates to the ACTIONS of the testees,
not the control systems of the testees, and it seems to me that the
testers are justified in being happy that (more people survive the cancer
longer> more students can read the instructions in a manual| more people
are happy using the isntrument), even if the differences are measurable
only statistically. It's a question of whose control systems are you
worrying about, the tester's or the testees'.

Martin