6th MOL example

CSGnet Archive CSG1998
1

Dr. MOL has struck again tonight. This might be a good nickname, I
don't have one yet.

Tonight I spoke to a young woman who is a preschool teacher. It was
kind of hard getting started. Following Bill's suggestion, I didn't
ask for one with a lot of emotion or feeling attached to it. As you
will see, this was probably a good idea in the case of this person.

As I recall, we went from being a preshool teacher, to the difference
between good versus bad days, to hiding feelings on bad days, to the
sense of being vulnerable.

Comments are invited. I feel good about tonight's chat. It could have
easily gone astray but seemed to work out OK.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 6th MOL example
Date: 1/19/98

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       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Mon Jan 19 22:36:18 1998

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<David> Hello Brandy.
<BrandyC> hi you the psychologist?
<David> Yes.
<David> Do you have a subject or topic which you wnat to start with?
<David> Still there?
<BrandyC> cool
<BrandyC> i always thought of going into that
<BrandyC> na you can choose it
<BrandyC> ya i'm here
<BrandyC> i'm doin somfin in another window kinda but it's minimized so i can do this at the same time
<David> Maybe this is not a good time . This exercise requires your full attention.
<BrandyC>
<BrandyC> ahh how long will it take then?
<David> About 15 minutes or so ,
<BrandyC> okay give me a minute and i'll be right back okay?
<David> OKay
<BrandyC> you don't have irc do you?
<David> What is irc?
<BrandyC> its another chat program
<BrandyC> easier one :wink: hehe but this is fine :wink:
<David> Are you still there?
<BrandyC> okay
<BrandyC> i think i am ready now
<BrandyC> hehe
<David> OK Brandy. Let me say a few words about the exercise. We can start with any topic or subject or incident. I will try to help you notice any thoughts or feelings at the edge of your awareness. this can lead to a change of view , to a higher level. Still want to go.\
<BrandyC> ok
<BrandyC> sure
<David>
<BrandyC> you can pick the topic ok?
<David> It works better if you do that way you are interested in it.
<BrandyC> i have no idea though hehe
<David> OK. What is it like to have no ideas?
<BrandyC> like not knowing what to say
<David> Do you have lots of different things and don't know what to say?
<David> Or is it blank?
<BrandyC> lots of diff things
<David> Which one of these different things would it be most comfortable for you to say?
<BrandyC> hmm
<BrandyC> how about we talk about children
<David> OK. Say something about children.
<BrandyC> i teach them
<David> What grade?
<BrandyC> i teach toddlers in a pre school
<David> Did you teach today?
<BrandyC> yes
<David>
<David> Tell me about today.
<BrandyC> it was a good day. the kids were really good and they listened well. 2 of my kids weren't there because of the holiday.
<David> How many are there in the class?
<BrandyC> right now i have seven, but one is moving up on Monday.
<David> Today was a good day. What is a bad day like?
<BrandyC> Well, mainly when the kids don't listen and they are really hyper, and pushy and like to fight and mess things up.
<David> What is it like for you on a bad day?
<BrandyC> stressful
<BrandyC> i get frustrated because they don't listen
<David> How does stress
<David> What thoughts or feelings do you notice as you are talking about a bad day, any?
<BrandyC> none really...it doesn't affect me unless i had one that day
<David> So you let it go and don't hang on to it.
<BrandyC> yes
<David> OK, today is a good day. What thoughts and feelings do you notice as you think about your good day?
<BrandyC> it makes me feel good and proud of my kids, and happy that things went well.
<David>
<David> When you have a good day, do you give the credit to your kids?
<BrandyC> not totally, because i help determine their day somewhat.
<David> Can you have a bad day, and through your actions turn it into a good day?
<BrandyC> i think so...how you make a day is how it ends
<BrandyC> like if i come in with a bad attitude and having a bad day then the kids will have one...but if I hide my bad mood, then i can make the kids day fun...
<BrandyC> one sec...sorry
<BrandyC> k
<David> Back?
<BrandyC> ya
<David> Can you describe this business of hiding your mood?
<BrandyC> well you don't want to show the kids you are having a bad day, so you put on a smile, and you laugh and you talk to the children as if they are important.
<David> Is this easy for you to do or is it hard?
<BrandyC> it's hard most of the time
<BrandyC> somtimes easier than others
<David> What do you think this means about you as a person?
<BrandyC> that i am emotional hehe
<BrandyC> i don't know
<BrandyC> are you talking about it being hard? what do i think THIS means about me as a person? or am i missing the question?
<David> Yes.
<David> You understand.
<BrandyC> well like i said i think i means that i am emotional, because i have a hard time hiding my feelings
<BrandyC> okay
<BrandyC> what does gone up a level mean exactly?
<David> In the exercise, it is my job to point out when I think that you may have "gone up a level" I think that this last statement may be an example.
<David> It means that a different state, view is evident. We started talking about one topic and the topic seemed to change.
<BrandyC> ahh okay i see
<David> Maybe you notice a change in yourself as you said the last thing: I am emotional because I have....etc.
<BrandyC> not really, because i have always known that i was
<David> What is it like to be an emotional person?
<BrandyC> I don't like it actually...because you depend on your feelings too much, instead of using logic or other things, you go on how you feel
<BrandyC> ...like if someone says something that is meant to be harmless, you can take it a different way...
<BrandyC> that's it i guess
<BrandyC> hee
<David> I think you see what I mean by going up a level.
<David> You kind of laughed at yourself.
<David> yes?
<David> What are you thinking right now?
<David> Still there?
<BrandyC> ya i am
<BrandyC> i'm thinking of what i'm thinking that its weird telling people how you feel or what kind of a person you are
<David> You mean in this exercise or in everyday life?
<BrandyC> in both
<BrandyC> no it's okay
<BrandyC> i don't mind
<David> We can stop if you want.
<BrandyC> i don't hate it..it's just not something i do everyday ya know?
<David> OK. Thanks for being willing to try it. I agree it is very different.
<David> The thought that it is weird may be another higher level view. What is the view?
<BrandyC> hmm
<BrandyC> maybe that it is unusual to open your feelings to someone that you don't know...if i knew you it would be some easier
<David> Do you open your feelings to people you are familiar with or do you hide them because you don't like being emotional?
<BrandyC> a little of both...like there is maybe 1-2 people that i would really open up to...to everyone else i don't share my feelings with, well i do some of my feelings, not the ones of me being vulnerable really though.
<David> Following the guide role, I would ask: What is it like being vulnerable?
<BrandyC> well, when you are emotional you are vulnerable...like you could fall for someone that says you are pretty, and they could just think you are pretty, not like you. that's just an example
<David> Any other examples come to mind showing what vulnerable means?
<BrandyC> hmmm when you make friends and you put trust in them easily and you get hurt easily
<BrandyC> because you were vulnerable to trust them
<BrandyC> .
<David> Any other examples?
<BrandyC> i think that's about it
<David> Are there any positive things about being vulnerable?
<BrandyC> i personally don't think so
<David> So being vulnerable never worked out well for you?
<BrandyC> not really no
<David> Are you feeling vulnerable right now?
<BrandyC> no
<David> If you decided to be vulnerable for a day, how would that make things different?
<BrandyC> i would probably be an emotional wreck all day ...i would get hurt a lot i am sure ...that's about it that i can think of
<David> Do you think it is possible to be close to another person without being vulnerable?
<BrandyC> its according if they are more vulnerable to you
<BrandyC> han you...if you sence that you can be close without being vulnerable
<David> How do know that a person is more vulnerable than you?
<BrandyC>
<BrandyC> You can tell if someone is vulnerable or not...if they act like you are their best friend and they just met you, or if they seem like they are emotional too, or stuff like that...
<David> OK.
<David> Brandy, I see by the clock that I have kept you way over the 15 minutes I promised. Sorry.
<BrandyC> its okay :wink:
<David> What did you think of this exercise?
<BrandyC> Well, i don't know ...what's the point of it? hehe i think i missed it kinda
<David> Maybe not. Do you think that your awareness of yourself is slightly different than we started with?
<BrandyC> Maybe a little
<BrandyC> .
<David> OK, that is the point. And the way of following your own thoughts and feelings is something you can practice doing for yourself.
<BrandyC> Okay :wink:
<David> Do I have your permission to save the file buffer so that I can show the conversation to others who are involved in this project?
<BrandyC> Sure go ahead :wink:
<BrandyC> where you from btw?
<David> From NJ. You?
<BrandyC> Ohio :wink:
<BrandyC> you can show it i don't mind :wink:
<David> Brady thanks and have a good night.
<BrandyC> you too :wink:
<David> bye.
<BrandyC> bye :wink:
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2

[From Bill Powers (980120.0400 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 6th MOL example
Date: 1/19/98

Tonight I spoke to a young woman who is a preschool teacher.

...

As I recall, we went from being a preshool teacher, to the difference
between good versus bad days, to hiding feelings on bad days, to the
sense of being vulnerable.

In this session (which I agree went well), I think I might have picked up
on the very first offering: "you pick the subject." You did deal with it
but you insisted on her choosing the subject. She had already done so: "I
want you to pick the subject" was the subject. Notice that you did end up
having to choose a subject for her. She simply wouldn't do it. She said
"how about children," but all she had to say about that was "I teach them."
You finally had to say "Tell me about today," and that got the ball rolling.

If I were feeling particularly sharp (easy to imagine in hindsight), I
might have responded with something like "That's a good start to show you
how this method works. You asked me to pick the subject. Instead of doing
it, the way I would in a normal conversation, I will ask you to consider
how you feel, or what your thought is, as you wait for me to pick the
subject, and describe the thought or feeling to me. So tell me about how it
is to be waiting for another person to pick the subject for you."

One never knows, but it's possible that this would have led directly into
vulnerability. And the next thing might have been "tell me what you mean by
being vulnerable" or "what does being vulnerable feel like? " Or even "Are
you feeling vulnerable right now?"

Of course you got there anyway (if that's where my beginning would have
led), but on the way there was just a little bit of arguing going on
between you and her: you pick the subject; no, you pick it; no, you pick it
for me. I might guess that _your_ background thought had to do with getting
the session started in "the right way," which was to have the explorer pick
the subject.
I guess my point is that the explorer _always_ picks the subject -- if you
can see what it is.

Best,

Bill P.

3

Bill's comments centered around who picks the subject. He suggested
that:

I might guess that _your_ background thought had to do with getting
the session started in "the right way," which was to have the explorer > pick the subject.

And then he suggested that I use the person's initial reaction as the
starting point:

If I were feeling particularly sharp (easy to imagine in hindsight), I
might have responded with something like "That's a good start to show > you how this method works. You asked me to pick the subject. Instead > of doing it, the way I would in a normal conversation, I will ask you > to consider how you feel, or what your thought is, as you wait for me > to pick the subject, and describe the thought or feeling to me. So > tell me about how it is to be waiting for another person to pick the
subject for you.

This might have worked but maybe not. It seemed to take this person a
little time to decide that she was serious about doing this. Recall
that she was talking to another person at the same time that she was
talking to me.

This is the problem with a case study, you can't replay the scene as if
nothing has happened. If could go back and ask her: At this point in
the dialogue, what if I said this, what might you have said.

I am still struggling with the issue of how to evaluate how well the
session went. I would appreciate any comments from people on this. I
did ask this person if her awareness of herself was any different than
it was at the beginning of the session and she said yes. I did notice
that her sentences seemed to get shorter after the point when I thought
she went up a level.

Comments, suggestions on how to evaluate the MOL sessions are invited.

Bill Powers wrote:

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re:6th MOL example; Bill Powers (980120.0400 MST)
Date: 1/20/98

[From Bill Powers (980120.0400 MST)]

>From: David Goldstein
>Subject: 6th MOL example
>Date: 1/19/98

>Tonight I spoke to a young woman who is a preschool teacher.
...
>As I recall, we went from being a preshool teacher, to the difference
>between good versus bad days, to hiding feelings on bad days, to the
>sense of being vulnerable.

In this session (which I agree went well), I think I might have picked up
on the very first offering: "you pick the subject." You did deal with it
but you insisted on her choosing the subject. She had already done so: "I
want you to pick the subject" was the subject. Notice that you did end up
having to choose a subject for her. She simply wouldn't do it. She said
"how about children," but all she had to say about that was "I teach them."
You finally had to say "Tell me about today," and that got the ball rolling.

If I were feeling particularly sharp (easy to imagine in hindsight), I
might have responded with something like "That's a good start to show you
how this method works. You asked me to pick the subject. Instead of doing
it, the way I would in a normal conversation, I will ask you to consider
how you feel, or what your thought is, as you wait for me to pick the
subject, and describe the thought or feeling to me. So tell me about how it
is to be waiting for another person to pick the subject for you."

One never knows, but it's possible that this would have led directly into
vulnerability. And the next thing might have been "tell me what you mean by
being vulnerable" or "what does being vulnerable feel like? " Or even "Are
you feeling vulnerable right now?"

Of course you got there anyway (if that's where my beginning would have
led), but on the way there was just a little bit of arguing going on
between you and her: you pick the subject; no, you pick it; no, you pick it
for me. I might guess that _your_ background thought had to do with getting
the session started in "the right way," which was to have the explorer pick
the subject.
I guess my point is that the explorer _always_ picks the subject -- if you
can see what it is.

Best,

Bill P.