8th MOL example

CSGnet Archive CSG1998
1

Tonight I had a chat with a person called turnip. I tried to do a more
pure vanilla MOL. I think her summary of the chat is very good at the
end and this may be a way of evaluating how much self learning takes
place. Her summary is all the more impressive given that we started out
with a difficulty finding words to express herself.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 8th MOL example
Date: 1/22/98

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       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Thu Jan 22 23:03:58 1998

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<David> Hello.
<turnip> hi david
<David> Thanks for considering doing the exercise. Would you like for me to tell you about it?
<turnip> please..and where you are and the purpose etc, etc...
<David>
<David> I am in NJ. The exercise is designed to help a person become more aware of thoughts, feelings, etc., which are at the edge of his/her awareness. We can start talking about any topic and subject. I will take the role of guide. My main role is to help you notice background issues. I will not give any advice or make any interpretations. The purpose is to find out if people chosen at random can benefit from this exercise. It works well with my patients and selected volunteers.
<David> Questions?
<turnip> yup
<turnip>
<David> OK, shoot.
<turnip> you are a psychiatrist?
<David> No, a psychologist.
<turnip> ok
<turnip> why the internet?
<David> I just became aware of chat rooms. It occurred to me that it would be great testing grounds. It is hard to obtain a random sample from my practice or
<turnip> i hear ya
<turnip>
<turnip> sorry didnt mean to interrupt
<David> It takes anywhere from 15 minutes to 30 minutes to start and reach a natrual stopping place. Do you have the time?
<David> OK.
<turnip> yeah but i have to check the meatballs first but a few more questions
<turnip> are you doing research?if so for what?
<David> Informal research. There is a group of people around the country and world who are interested in what is called Perceptual Control Theory. The exercise which is called the Method of Levels is derived from this theoretical framework. At the end of the exercise, I will ask you for permission to save the buffer so that I can share the conversation with this group. The
<turnip> thats fine
<turnip> how many people have you asked and how many responded yes or nno
<David> So far I have done it with seven people. A few people have said no thank you. I am surprised. After we get going, I think that people see that it is a legitimate thing and that I am not some weirdo.
<turnip> lol you are probably a weirdo anyway
<David> OK.
<turnip> let me go for a sec and then im here ok?
<David> OK.
<turnip> ok 1 more question tho?
<David> Sure.
<turnip> of the 7, how many men?
<David> Maybe about three.
<turnip> oh you dont ask gender?
<turnip> ok
<turnip>
<David> I try not to just select one gender. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
<turnip> i know but you dont ask after you get going?
<turnip> or its not an issue
<David> It is not an issue. It usually becomes apparent during the conversation. It is not relevant to the purpose of the exercise.
<David>
<David> Any more questions?
<turnip> nope go ahead
<David> We start by you choosing any topic or subject which you feel comfortable talking about.
<turnip> hmmm thats tough
<turnip> im thinking
<David> We can even start with what is happening right now.
<David> For example, I can ask you what is it like for you to be thinking about choosing a topic or subject for this exercise?
<turnip> ok that i can handle
<turnip> i am having difficulty choosing a topic for 2 reasons
<turnip> 1. i feel like im being put on the spot and i dont function well there and
<turnip> 2, i dont know what topics really interest me
<David> OK. Now I will ask you to tell me more about each of the things you said. Describe what you are experiencing by the phrase "put on the spont." so I will understand your experience.
<turnip>
<turnip> i feel like i am going to give the "wrong" answer to the question of topic. it makes me feel ???/
<turnip>
<turnip> im trying to find the right word
<David> OK. As you are saying this, please be aware of any background issues, such as Im trying to find the right words.
<turnip> ok\
<turnip>
<David> So now I can ask, what is it like to trying to find the right words?
<turnip> frustrating that i cant cuz its right there
<David> You have a sense of what you want to say but can't find the words, is that it?
<turnip> yeah i want to say embarrased but thats not quite it
<David> Is this experience you are having something that is familiar to you or does it only happen once in a while?
<turnip> not being able to find the right word?
<David> yes?
<turnip> once in a while
<turnip> yes
<David> So, it is happening now and it sometimes happens at other times.
<David> And when it happens you feel frustrated and embarassed?
<turnip> frustrated yes, embarrassed was for the initial question...how i felt about not being able to choose a topic
<David> OK, frustrated. I am thinking ...As you step back and look at your frustrated feelings, what thoughts and feelings to you have about that?
<turnip> im not sure that it goes any farther than that
<turnip> frustration stems from inability to find a word that i know is there, and as an intelligent person its just frustrating. doesnt make me feel any other way.
<David> Is the frustration you experience consistent with your image of yourself as an intelligent person?
<turnip> sure
<turnip>
<turnip> a person can be both
<turnip> yes
<David> So, sometimes you are frustrated when it comes to expressing your thoughts. How do you usually handle this?
<turnip> the frustration, or trying to get the thought across?
<David> Trying to get the thought across?
<turnip> ask the person/people i am talking to if they get the gist without me being able yo completely express it.
<David> What is it like for you to have to ask people this?
<turnip> i have no problem with that
<David> Have you found other ways of expressing yourself other than words?
<turnip> in general? or what? clarify please\
<David> OK. In general to start with.
<turnip> i have found other ways in my life to express myself yes.
<David> Tell me about them.
<turnip> i write stuff down
<turnip> i am tattooed
<turnip>
<turnip> i dont have any specific talents..musical or such for expression, but
<turnip> those things are a way of expressing who i am
<turnip> sure
<David> Can you tell me a little more about the writing stuff down
<turnip> i sometimes write down my thoughts and feelings about things, especially if i have had an unpleasant hahahaha
<turnip> encounter with someone.
<David> Hope present company is not included.
<turnip> not at all
<turnip> i was laughing cuz i got stuck again...
<David> The laughing at yourself when you are stuck may point to a background stuff. Any thoughts about this?
<turnip> yeah 2..
<turnip> i can and do laugh at myself often and i was even more aware of my "stupidity" than before
<turnip> that i have a sense of humor and am not afraid to admit mistakes
<David> The laughing at yourself, what do you think it means?
<David> OK.
<David> How would you describe your sense of humor?
<turnip> sick and twisted
<turnip> hahahaha
<David> hahaha
<David> You do have a sense of humor.
<turnip> i know
<turnip> its important
<David> Has it always been or have you worked hard to develop it?
<turnip> comes natural
<David> What is it like to have a natural sense of humor?
<turnip>
<turnip> its fun, makes the bullshit in life easier to deal with
<turnip>
<David> Does it ever abandon you?
<turnip> never totally abandons me no, but certainly gets put away at times.
<David> Do you put it away or does it go away by itself?
<turnip> do you mean do i have to work at leaving it, or am i appropriate with it?
<David> I mean when it leaves you, do you want it to leave or is it all of a sudden not there like your words sometimes?
<turnip> oh very good!!!!!!
<turnip> i suppose i want it to leave
<turnip> its always there, just not always THERE
<David> Where do you think we are now?
<turnip> in terms of what? the end of this?
<David> I am trying to reconstruct our conversation so far. Can you do it for me?
<turnip> maybe
<turnip> i cant make a decision if i feel pressured at times
<turnip> this causes me frustration
<turnip> i do have other ways of expressing myself, however im not sure they can fix that frustration, or even if they should
<turnip> i have the ability to laugh at myself and certain situations regardless of their severity
<turnip> and thats it
<David> I agree.
<David> I wonder what you thought of the exercise, keeping in mind that it was a one time thing?
<turnip>
<turnip> i think it was useful in helping me know how i feel when i cant do something i know i am able to do
<turnip> you follow?
<David> Yes. I think it was helpful too.
<David> May I save the file buffer to show to other people involved in this project?
<turnip> be my guest
<David> Thanks very much for participating.
<turnip> your welcome, thank you
<turnip> bye for now
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2

[From Bill Powers (980123.0727 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 8th MOL example
Date: 1/22/98

Tonight I had a chat with a person called turnip. I tried to do a more
pure vanilla MOL.

Yes, it showed. Much less strain, isn't it? I sensed that you were more
alert to what was happening in present time.

I think her summary of the chat is very good at the
end and this may be a way of evaluating how much self learning takes
place.

For no good reason, I think the humor and other reactions showed that
something was happening -- some surprise, some interest in the result.
This, in addition to the self-evaluation. The person laughed at recognizing
the "stuck" feeling again, only this time from a higher point of view. What
had been a problem had become funny. It's only a small level-jump, but a
definite one, and there was a consolidating insight, I think. The next time
this person gets stuck like this, I think it will be easier to get unstuck.

Isn't it amazing how a person struggling for words can suddenly, one
sentence later, be explaining fluently how hard it is to find a topic? This
is one of the phenomena that gives me a vivid sense of a switch to another
viewpoint, another organization. Just by asking about the expressed
present-time subject ("This is tough"), you get an immediate switch to a
viewpoint (or something) in which the problem just vanishes. This often
happens.

Her summary is all the more impressive given that we started out
with a difficulty finding words to express herself.

Right. And if you hadn't caught that and brought it immediately to attention,
the "being put on the spot" feeling would have continued to operate,
slowing everything else down. This is why it's so important to keep a sense
of what's going on _right now_, because that's where any problems are
having their effect. I think I saw you doing this a number of times in the
session, sometimes just looking for a possible next level, and sometimes
picking up quickly (much more quickly than in some previous sessions) on a
clear hint about the next level.

The ability of the person to recap the session doesn't surprise me. As I
said before, even if you don't spend much time at a given level, the person
doesn't forget what went before, not if the progression has been smooth as
it was here. Can you see why I wonder what kinds of results might come from
doing this repeatedly, session after session, while the person gradually
puts together a new understanding of internal organization, starting from
all sorts of different beginning topics?

Best,

Bill P.

3

Today I had a chat with a person called SanityClause. This is the third
time that a person wanted me to choose the topic. Using that as the
starting point, was illuminating.

We went from social ackwardness, to wanting to please/help others. The
image I was getting was that of a shy, intellectual person, who was
interested in helping/tutoring others in well defined circumstances.
Probably a passive person.

While I tried to be pure Vanilla MOL, it is hard. I am thinking that
the first conversation is probably the hardest. And that as a person
does the MOL, the more aware he/she becomes of background issues and
the more willing he/she becomes in self-disclosing. It is probably
unrealistic to expect that a person will reveal that much in a one shot
deal.

I am still struggling with a way of quantifying what I have. It is so
subjective. I am thinking that my work with Q Methodology may come into
play. These conversations could become a set of items for the Q
Methodology approach. I would probably need at least 25 such
conversations. I would have to come up with the sorting dimensions,
"Conditions of Instruction".

A scaling question approach used in people doing Solution Focused
Therapy might be: At the beginning of the exercise, I ask the person:
On a scale of 0 to 10, with 10 meaning the most self-aware you ever
were and 0 meaning the least self-aware you ever were, how self-aware
are you right now?

Then at the end of the exercise, I ask the same question.

Any ideas for quantifying an MOL conversation would be welcome and
appreciated.

Here is the dialogue.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 8th MOL example
Date: 1/24/98

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       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sat Jan 24 12:31:14 1998

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<David> Sorry, we were cut off someohow.
<SanityClause> said u left the chat
<SanityClause> where were we?
<David> I received the same message about you.
<SanityClause> that's progress for u
<David> I was asking you what was it like, when you were in your element , and you were feeling knowlegeable/clever/witty.
<SanityClause> I either have a ready answer to listener requests, or resources available for obtaining it, I am comfortable/unconcerned that what I say will be received favorably
<David> The background issue I am noticeing is that you like to please other people. Is this on target?
<SanityClause> yes
<David> May we change the topic to this issue?
<SanityClause> k
<David> Tell me your experience when you are pleasing other people?
<SanityClause> I feel useful
<David> Tell me more about useful so I can know what you are experiencing.
<SanityClause> that I am meeting the needs of the other party's request
<David> I am thinking. Getting a message that you are away.
<SanityClause> not the case
<David> Is there anything else you can tell me about meeting the needs of the other party's request?
<SanityClause> it's situational
<SanityClause> depends on whether they require data/cheering up/other
<David> Do you wait until another they ask for it or do you see a need and offer?
<SanityClause> when I see a need, I offer
<David> What is your experience when you do this, what sort of response do you get from others?
<SanityClause> depends on the individual--most are appreciative, but there have been instances where it was indicated that my help was not desired
<David> Tell me about the times when it is appreciated.
<SanityClause> I suggest to the person the alternative I have, then walk them through it, if necessary (I'm a tutor)
<David> Do you like being a tutor?
<SanityClause> yes, mostly
<SanityClause> there have been some clients who only wanted someone to do their assignments for them
<David> And you handle this by?
<SanityClause> discussing it with their instructor
<David> Are you selected by the instructor or by the person who you are tutoring?
<SanityClause> selected as a tutor by the instructor, selected by tutee for session
<David> They know you before they select you?
<SanityClause> some, and I'm sure thet've seen me around--my photo is on the signup sheet posted in Student Services
<David> And this is what you do full time?
<SanityClause> no, I work in PC Tech. Support for a local industry full-time
<David> I think I got us off the exercise a little bit, sorry I didn't mean to ask personal questions.
<SanityClause> np
<David> So far, to regain the exercise, can you summarize for us where we started and where we are?
<SanityClause> we discussed my awkwardness around people I don't know and that I like to please people
<David> OK. Are you interested in doing a little more or would you like to stop at this point?
<SanityClause> whatever is convenient for u
<SanityClause> have plans for 1pm, but np until then
<David> Let's do a little more. OK. I am thinking just a little bit more. The comment you made, " Whatever is convenient for u " is an exmaple of your wanting to please people, yes?
<SanityClause> yes
<David> It seems that you do this in terms of your tutoring and giving people information to help solve problems. Does it extend to other areas of your life?
<SanityClause> I tell jokes/insert witticisms into conversation
<SanityClause> IMO
<David> What is IMO?
<SanityClause> in my opinion--referring to the "insert witticisms" part
<David> Got it. When you do this, what sort of response are you looking for in others?
<SanityClause> a smile
<David> What is it like to receive a smile?
<SanityClause> I like it--my attempt to help/entertain is proven succesful
<David> Tell me more about the entertain part?
<SanityClause> saying something to make the listener happy--whether by telling them something funny or something they need/want to hear
<David> Are you having an background reactions about yourself as a person as you say this?
<SanityClause> no
<David> OK. Just asking.
<SanityClause> np
<David> If you had to choose between entertaining and helping, what is your choice?
<SanityClause> helping
<David> What is it like to be helped by someone else?
<SanityClause> great, I am always seeking to improve my knowledge base
<David> Tell me more about "knowledeg base."
<SanityClause> the range of subjects from which I can provide assistance
<David> Is there any kind of help one person can give to another other than knowledge base kinds?
<SanityClause> no. Even friendship/compassion requires some knowledge of the person/situation
<David> When you are providing friendship/compassion help, how is that different than when you are providing information/tutoring help?
<SanityClause> they are more about perceptions than facts/methods
<David> How comfortable to you feel when you provide this kind of help?
<SanityClause> it depends on the situation--empathy can make it very uncomfortable
<David> Tell me about the empathy thing, I don't think I understand clearly.
<SanityClause> to an extent, I share the feelings of the other person
<David> To an extent?
<SanityClause> again, it's situational--I wouldn't feel the loss of one of their loved ones as acutely as they
<David> In such a situation, how comfortable do you feel compared to a tutoring situation?
<SanityClause> I provide what comfort I can, but have no method for solving the problem--tutoring is capable of providing a more definitive result in a measurable frame
<David> What is it like to be in an ill defined situation like this for you?
<SanityClause> similar to public speaking
<David> How is it similar?
<SanityClause> unsure what to say/do
<David> OK. I think we may be back at the beginning in a way. Maybe this is a good place to stop for now given your 1 pm appointment.
<SanityClause> k
<David> May I save the file buffer to share with others in this project?
<SanityClause> sure
<David> Thanks very much.
<David> Have a great day.
<SanityClause> np--u2
<SanityClause> may I hear your findings?
<David> Right now?
<SanityClause> no, when they are concluded
<David> OK, can I email them to you?
<SanityClause> sure
<David> OK.
<SanityClause> thanks
<David> Bye for now.
<SanityClause> k, bye
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4

[From Bill Powers (980124.1246 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 8th MOL example
Date: 1/24/98

Today I had a chat with a person called SanityClause. This is the third
time that a person wanted me to choose the topic. Using that as the
starting point, was illuminating.

We went from social ackwardness, to wanting to please/help others. The
image I was getting was that of a shy, intellectual person, who was
interested in helping/tutoring others in well defined circumstances.
Probably a passive person.

That was about it, wasn't it? This person didn't give you much by way of
hints about the next level. You tried valiantly to invite comments from
higher levels, but nothing obvious was forthcoming. If I'd been in your
position I might have tried some more probing questions, but that would
only show that even I could goof up the method if I really tried. I think
you were right to leave it alone, especially in a one-time session.

Roger on "#9".

Best,

Bill P.