A couple questions for the physics-adept on CSGnet

[From Dick Robertson,2010.04.13.1658CDT]

Some Dumb questions inspired by “Quantum Mechanics for Dummies

First let me say the current thread is fascinating, especially in regard to the speculation that the quantum “two-slits” anomaly (if it is one) might involve a “control of perception” function. When I first saw the question, “What does PCT have to say about the two-slit anomaly in quantum mechanics?” my reaction was, “Nothing. Quantum Mechanics is a field of physics and PCT is a theory of behavior.” But as the discussion has evolved, it has been intriguing to see how a physicist’s control of his perceptions could be a factor in the creation of an anomaly that a Vulcan (let’s say) might not experience.

Anyway, if anyone could clue me in on the following I would appreciate it.

  1. In high school physics we learned that the pressure of a gas in a confined space is determined by the rate of molecule or atomic collisions per unit time. (Have I got that right?)

QUESTION: Why do the atoms bump into each other in the first place? Does something propel them, or do they have intrinsic energy fueling their movement? Or, is it just an unexplained property of atomic particles? Or, do particles possess momentum left from the big bang?

  1. In the statement from QM for D, “one photon was being sent,” HOW was it being sent? The implication is that it was being propelled – by energy inherent in the laser beam? Where did it come from in the first place?

Best,

Dick R

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.13.1900 MDT)]

Dick Robertson,2010.04.13.1658CDT]

Some Dumb questions inspired by "Quantum Mechanics for Dummies

1. In high school physics we learned that the pressure of a gas in a confined space is determined by the rate of molecule or atomic collisions per unit time. (Have I got that right?)

QUESTION: Why do the atoms bump into each other in the first place? Does something propel them, or do they have intrinsic energy fueling their movement? Or, is it just an unexplained property of atomic particles? Or, do particles possess momentum left from the big bang?

That's one of those questions like "why is the sky dark at night," which is deeper than it looks at first. Here's my guess: because energy is quantized. That's a nice mystery answer of the kind people give to show how much more they know than you do. Are you humbled?

When I first started to answer the question, I just thought that collisions had to be pretty efficient for a cup of coffee to stay warm as long as it does. There must be billions or trillions of collisions per second in a cup of coffee, maybe more, so the collisions had to preserve kinetic energy almost perfectly (but if they didn't, where would the "wasted" energy go? Little bug in the argument there. Maybe into changes of state or radiation losses.)

Then I thought of quantum physics for obvious reasons, and Planck's Constant concerning minimum quanta of energy, and had the idea that below some minimum level of energy loss per collision, there wouldn't be enough to make up a whole quantum so nothing would happen. That would prevent the ultimate cooling to absolute zero and preserve molecular motions (including vibrations) much longer than could happen if energy just kept being lost right down to zero.

This is a very long answer to a short question and is based on a large supply of ignorance, so I'd better leave it there. I don't think that the velocities have been simply getting smaller since the Big Bang, because so much energy is stored in gravitation and mass and is periodically released in ordinary and super novas and other such things. The velocities may slowly run down but they keep getting renewed in smaller Bangs. But most cooling comes from sharing momenta between fast and slow particles, not from inefficient collisions, so the mean velocity doesn't decline very fast over a few billion years.

Your other point, that perception has a lot to do with physics, is probably a more important one. Martin T. will probably have a more informed answer about the velocities than I have.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.13.2315 EDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.13.1900 MDT)]

This is a very long answer to a short question and is based on a large supply of ignorance, so I’d better leave it there. I don’t think that the velocities have been simply getting smaller since the Big Bang, because so much energy is stored in gravitation and mass and is periodically released in ordinary and super novas and other such things. The velocities may slowly run down but they keep getting renewed in smaller Bangs. But most cooling comes from sharing momenta between fast and slow particles, not from inefficient collisions, so the mean velocity doesn’t decline very fast over a few billion years.

BG: The sun is the primary source of energy as far as we are concerned. (It generates its energy by fusing hydrogen into helium.) Some energy is also provided by radioactive decay. The energy left from the Big Bang takes the form of photons with energies of black body at 2.7 K.

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2010.04.14.01.21]

[From
Dick Robertson,2010.04.13.1658CDT]

Anyway, if anyone could clue me in on the
following I would appreciate it.

  1. In high school physics we learned that the
    pressure of a gas in a confined space is determined by the rate of
    molecule or atomic collisions per unit time. (Have I got that right?)

Close, but not quite. What we observe as “pressure” is the effect of
atoms or molecules bumping against the container wall. When the atom
bumps, it recoils, and Newton’s law that every action has an equal and
opposite reaction applies. The atom applies a force against the wall
and vice versa. The faster the atom, the greater the force. If there
were no other atoms in the neighbourhood, there would be one bump, and
that would be it. But when the atom can bump off other atoms in the
neighbourhood, it might well be bumped back again, and hit the wall
many times. On average, there must at any one moment be about as many
heading toward the wall as away from it, so it doesn’t matter whether
it is THIS atom coming back, or another. Some atom will be going to
bump the wall, and some atom will be recoiling from a bump, and on
balance, they average out. Overall, there’s no loss of energy in this
process of atoms bumping into each other and into the wall except
possibly from heating the wall – there’s nowhere else for the energy
to go, and if the wall is at the same temperature as the atoms of the
gas, it won’t even get lost there.

So, two things determine the pressure: how hard an atom hits the wall
(how fast it was going perpendicular to the wall), and how many of them
hit in a given time period. The average speed determines the
temperature, and how many of them hit depends on the density. How many
of them hit the wall in a given time is affected by speed and density
in the same way as is the rate at which the atoms hit each other. So in
a roundabout way, you could say that the rate of molecule or atom
collisions per unit time “determines” the pressure, but only if by
“determines” you mean the one can be deduced from the other. It’s
really a case of correlation due to common cause.

QUESTION: Why do the atoms bump into each other
in the first place? Does something propel them, or do they have
intrinsic energy fueling their movement? Or, is it just an unexplained
property of atomic particles? Or, do particles possess momentum left
from the big bang?

If you believe Einstein, mass and energy are interchangeable. The
Universe came into being with a certain amount of it, and if the law of
conservation of mass-energy is correct, it still has the same amount.
As Bruce pointed out, the Sun’s continuing conversion of mass into
energy is ultimately (apart from starlight and radioactive decay
locally) what energizes everything on the Earth, including the atoms or
molecules of your hypothetical gas.

  1. In the statement from QM for D, “one photon
    was being sent,” HOW was it being sent? The implication is that it was
    being propelled – by energy inherent in the laser beam? Where did it
    come from in the first place?

Any photon of the energies we are dealing with has come from an
electron at one energy level in an atom dropping to another level. In
some of the experiments talked about in this thread, a single atom is
held in a cavity, so only one photon can be emitted from it. In others,
there may be a laser beam, in which the atoms are energized by pumping
electrons from a low energy shell to a higher one, and then are
stimulated to emit to an intermediate shell by interaction with a
photon of intermediate energy. That’s a rather crude way of putting it,
but the end result is that the newly emitted photon is in phase with
the initial one, and both can go on to stimulate new emissions from
pumped-up atoms they encounter, and that can exponentially build up a
powerful coherent wave of many photons.

Here’s one way of looking at the particle-wave issue. If there is one
photon, you could think of it like this (it’s a time-amplitude graph):

Wavicle.jpg

Because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (and that’s not a
dormitive principle) the wave could be sharply peaked, and you could
know where it is quite accurately, but you wouldn’t be able to
determine very accurately its energy/wavelength. On the other hand, you
could identify its wavelength very well if the wave was smeared over
many cycles, but then you wouldn’t know where the particle was.

When there are lots of these wavicles all in phase with each other, the
individual photons seem to have no identity. They aren’t anywhere
particular within the beam, because you know the wavelength with great
accuracy, and you know it only because you can’t identify the location
of any particular contributor photon. If you could isolate a particular
photon in the laser beam, and know where it was, you wouldn’t have the
benefit of averaging it with all the others to determine its energy.
There’s a reciprocity relation. As a crude rule of thumb, if you know
where the thing is (and this applies to atoms and molecules as well as
to photons - you can get fringes from a two-slit experiment with
objects as big as C60 fullerene molecules), it probably looks like a
particle, but if you don’t, it might look like a wave. Either way, it’s
the same “wavicle”.

Martin

[From Dick Robertson, 2010.04.14.0952CDT]

Thanks Bill, Bruce and Martin.

That helps a lot.

Best,

Dick R

···

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.14.0810)]

Martin Taylor (2010.04.14.01.21)–

Dick Robertson asks:

  1. In the statement from QM for D, “one photon
    was being sent,” HOW was it being sent? The implication is that it was
    being propelled – by energy inherent in the laser beam? Where did it
    come from in the first place?

Any photon of the energies we are dealing with has come from an
electron at one energy level in an atom dropping to another level. In
some of the experiments talked about in this thread, a single atom is
held in a cavity, so only one photon can be emitted from it.

How do they do that? Isn’t the cavity made out of atoms too? How do they manage to keep that one atom from leaking out? The space between atoms is much greater than the diameter of any atom, as I recall.

And while you’re at it, could you answer my question about the “which slit” version of the two slit, single photon experiment. This seems to have been the finding that motivated the “Copenhagen interpretation” of the results, which, I think, is the reason why Gavin Ritz may think that PCT is relevant to QM. Is that right? As I understand it, in that experiment, there are detectors set up at each slit (or maybe just one) which tells which slit the photon went through. When the detector is off (as in the regular two slit experiment) the interference pattern occurs; when it’s on, the interference pattern disappears.

Interpretations of this result seem to involve the idea that the wave (wavicle?) that hits the slits somehow carries information about which slit it’s hitting and that this “which slit” information seems to be required for the phenomenon to occur. When the detector is on, this “which slit” information goes to the detector, rather than to, what, the next photon? Is that right?

Just from the high level description of the experiment it seems like the first place one would look for an explanation of the absence of interference pattern when the detector is on is in the detector itself. I must be missing something – which is why I would appreciate your help with this – but it seems to me that the last place I would go to for an explanation of this interesting result would be to the idea of photons carrying information about themselves.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2010.04.14.12.09]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.14.0810)]

Martin Taylor
(2010.04.14.01.21)–

Dick Robertson asks:

  1. In the statement from QM for D, “one
    photon
    was being sent,” HOW was it being sent? The implication is that it was
    being propelled – by energy inherent in the laser beam? Where did it
    come from in the first place?

Any photon of the energies we are dealing with has come from an
electron at one energy level in an atom dropping to another level. In
some of the experiments talked about in this thread, a single atom is
held in a cavity, so only one photon can be emitted from it.

How do they do that? Isn’t the cavity made out of atoms too? How do
they manage to keep that one atom from leaking out? The space between
atoms is much greater than the diameter of any atom, as I recall.

Rather than have me try my half-understood explanation, if you really
want to know, you might try Googel Scholar or Scholarpedia. Google
scholar gives quite a few results from the search terms “single atom
trap cavity”.

And while you’re at it, could you answer my question about the “which
slit” version of the two slit, single photon experiment. This seems to
have been the finding that motivated the “Copenhagen interpretation”
of the results, which, I think, is the reason why Gavin Ritz may think
that PCT is relevant to QM. Is that right? As I understand it, in that
experiment, there are detectors set up at each slit (or maybe just one)
which tells which slit the photon went through. When the detector is
off (as in the regular two slit experiment) the interference pattern
occurs; when it’s on, the interference pattern disappears.

As I understand it from skimming the papers that have been linked in
this thread, the detection is not done at the slit, but elsewhere,
perhaps much later, using some state of the world that is different if
the photon went through one slit or through the other. In the Shih
group study, it’s a photon that coul be observed at any time after its
emission. If it exists, you can tell which slit. If it doesn’t, you
can’t. I’d have to go back to the A&Z review to be sure that’s
right. Why don’t you do that and save me the bother?

Interpretations of this result seem to involve the idea that the wave
(wavicle?) that hits the slits somehow carries information about which
slit it’s hitting and that this “which slit” information seems to be
required for the phenomenon to occur. When the detector is on, this
“which slit” information goes to the detector, rather than to, what,
the next photon? Is that right?

I don’t understand the concept of an object “carrying information”
about where it is. Does a transport truck “carry information” that
allows the receiver at the loading dock to tell that the truck is ready
to unload? If you answer “yes”, then the wavicle does carry information
about where it is. If you answer “no”, then it doesn’t. The issue is
not the physics, but your concept of what it means to “carry
information”.

Just from the high level description of the experiment it seems like
the first place one would look for an explanation of the absence of
interference pattern when the detector is on is in the detector itself.
I must be missing something – which is why I would appreciate your
help with this – but it seems to me that the last place I would go to
for an explanation of this interesting result would be to the idea of
photons carrying information about themselves.

What you are talking about is an environmental affordance. Does the
truck at the loading dock have properties that allow the receiver to
know that it is there to be unloaded? Of course it does. Does it “carry
information about itself” that represents these properties? That’s a
question for you to answer, and the answer you give to that question is
the same for the photon/wavicle.

A photon, like any physical entity, has properties that allow an
appropriate detector to know roughly where it is, and roughly when it
was there, and roughly how energetic it is. No detector can detect all
these properties infinitely accurately, and the more accurately you
know the energy-time aspects (momentum), the less accurately you can
know the “where” aspect. That complementarity limits the amount of
information you can get about the photon, but does it mean the phton
“carries information about itself”? That’s a linguistic question, and
it’s your call how you want to use the language.

When you come to entanglement, you get into the necessarily Quantum
Theoretical issues, whereby some property that could in principle be
determined is shared across two or more entities, perhaps two photons,
perhaps a photon and an atom, perhaps two electrons, etc. If one of
these entities has the entangled property determined, the other is
fixed. Entanglement is the key to most weird effects at the quantum
level. Again, I suggest you don’t ask me, but check out Scholarpedia or
google scholar (or perhaps even Wikipedia, even though it’s moderately
likely to contain misinformation, yet it is more likely to be written
in lay language).

Relevance to PCT? I’m beginning to think it could be relevant to a
necessary discussion of the half of the control loop that is seldom
mentioned on CSGnet, the complex environmental feedback paths available
in the real world, and the perceptual control of the environmental
affordances of other control loops.

Martin

Martin

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.14.1410 EDT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.14.0810)]

Just from the high level description of the experiment it seems like the first place one would look for an explanation of the absence of interference pattern when the detector is on is in the detector itself. I must be missing something – which is why I would appreciate your help with this – but it seems to me that the last place I would go to for an explanation of this interesting result would be to the idea of photons carrying information about themselves.

BG: See if this helps:

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/DoubleSlit/DoubleSlit.html

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.14.1745)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.14.1410 EDT)--

Rick Marken (2010.04.14.0810)]

Just from the high level description of the experiment it seems like the
first place one would look for an explanation of the absence of interference
pattern when the detector is on is in the detector itself. I must be missing
something -- which is why I would appreciate your help with this --� but it
seems to me that the last place I would go to for an explanation of this
interesting result would be to the idea of photons carrying information
about themselves.

BG: See if this helps:
The Feynman Double Slit

Yes, this helps enormously. Very clear. Thanks. I still don't quite
get what the light bulb is about but I assume it is some kind of
detection system that tells "which slit" the electron when through.
The light bulb detector is even called a "disturbance" so there is an
understanding that this detection system could influence the photons.
He talks about failures to design a "perfect experiment" such that the
light bulb would not influence the result. Since such an experiment is
apparently impossible, why not develop a model of what the light bulb
(the "which slit" detector) might be doing and then see if
manipulations of the bulb have the predicted effect on the
interference (or non-interference) pattern? It seems like trying out a
physical, causal model of some kind (I have no idea what kind; I don't
know all the physics that would constrain it) would be something to
try before suggesting that the effect is created in some mysterious
way by the act of observing itself. But you obviously know more about
this than I do so maybe you can help me out. I think I now understand
the basics of the two slit experiment with single electrons, at least
in terms of what was done and what was observed. I don't understand
the QM explanation of it yet, though.

Thanks again

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.0912 EDT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.14.1745)]

Yes, this helps enormously. Very clear. Thanks. I still don’t quite
get what the light bulb is about but I assume it is some kind of
detection system that tells “which slit” the electron when through.
The light bulb detector is even called a “disturbance” so there is an
understanding that this detection system could influence the photons.
He talks about failures to design a “perfect experiment” such that the
light bulb would not influence the result. Since such an experiment is
apparently impossible, why not develop a model of what the light bulb
(the “which slit” detector) might be doing and then see if
manipulations of the bulb have the predicted effect on the
interference (or non-interference) pattern? It seems like trying out a
physical, causal model of some kind (I have no idea what kind; I don’t
know all the physics that would constrain it) would be something to
try before suggesting that the effect is created in some mysterious
way by the act of observing itself. But you obviously know more about
this than I do so maybe you can help me out. I think I now understand
the basics of the two slit experiment with single electrons, at least
in terms of what was done and what was observed. I don’t understand
the QM explanation of it yet, though.

BG: The experiment is easier to understand if you think in terms of electrons rather than photons. The light source is used to detect the electron. If you want to know which slit the electron passed through, you must use a sufficiently energetic photon to localize the electron’s position. It turns out, by employing the Heisenberg indeterminacy (or uncertainty) relationship, you find that you will thereby disturb the electron’s momentum to such a degree that the interference pattern is washed out. So you have a choice. You can either know which slit each electron passed through, or you can see the interference pattern, but you cannot do both. This is the essence of the two-slit experiment as described by Feynman. I hope this helps.

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.0750)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.0912 EDT)--

BG: The experiment is easier to understand if you think in terms of
electrons rather than photons. The light source is used to detect the
electron. If you want to know which slit the electron passed through, you
must use a sufficiently energetic photon to localize the electron's
position. It turns out, by employing the Heisenberg indeterminacy (or
uncertainty) relationship, you find that you will thereby disturb the
electron's momentum to such a degree that the interference pattern is washed
out. So you have a choice. You can either know which slit each electron
passed through, or you can see the interference pattern, but you cannot do
both. This is the essence of the two-slit experiment as described by
Feynman. I hope this helps.

Now I'm completely puzzled because this seems so non-puzzling. Just as
I thought, the detector (light) affects the particle (electron) so
that the interference pattern disappears when the detector is on and
reappears when the detector is off. It seems, then, that the only
puzzling QM phenomenon is the interference pattern (typically
explained as a wave based phenomenon) that occurs when particles are
shot through the two slits. And that phenomenon might be handled by a
property of the detector material itself (on which the interference
pattern is seen), as Bill has suggested. I still don't see why people
thought that human the "act of observation" had anything to do with
these QM phenomena.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.1327 EDT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.0750)]

Now I'm completely puzzled because this seems so non-puzzling. Just as
I thought, the detector (light) affects the particle (electron) so
that the interference pattern disappears when the detector is on and
reappears when the detector is off. It seems, then, that the only
puzzling QM phenomenon is the interference pattern (typically
explained as a wave based phenomenon) that occurs when particles are
shot through the two slits. And that phenomenon might be handled by a
property of the detector material itself (on which the interference
pattern is seen), as Bill has suggested. I still don't see why people
thought that human the "act of observation" had anything to do with
these QM phenomena.

BG: The "act of observation" enters the picture because of the probability amplitudes responsible for the interference. We never observe these amplitudes but only individual electrons or photons. So long as an irreversible process has not occurred, the probability amplitudes can produce interference. When an irreversible process occurs the probability amplitude "collapses" and a particle is observed in some given state. We go through all this because we cannot say that the electron is in given state prior to the observation. If we make this assumption, the statistics comes out wrong. So in certain experiments we say that an electron is in in a "superposition of states", e.g. spin up and spin down. When we observe the electron, we always find it either spin up or spin down. The problem arises when we say that the detector is also a quantum system. The theory then predicts that the detector is in a superposition of states corresponding to the superposition of states of the electron. Since this is not what we observe, one "solution" is to say that consciousness collapses the state vector. Schroedinger did not think much of this "solution", hence the infamous Schroedinger's cat thought experiment. According to the orthodox interpretation of quantum mechanics the cat is in a superposition of live/dead states until the box is opened and the cat is observed. Schroedinger used this example to point out the absurd consequences of the orthodox interpretation. The orthodox, however, did not find the argument to be absurd. Thus we still have consciousness playing a role in some interpretations of quantum mechanics.

If you find this a clear as mud, I refer you to Feynman who cautioned, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." And "Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, "But how can it be like that?" because you will get "down the drain," into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2010.04.15.11.34]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.0750)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.0912 EDT)--
     
BG: The experiment is easier to understand if you think in terms of
electrons rather than photons. The light source is used to detect the
electron. If you want to know which slit the electron passed through, you
must use a sufficiently energetic photon to localize the electron's
position. It turns out, by employing the Heisenberg indeterminacy (or
uncertainty) relationship, you find that you will thereby disturb the
electron's momentum to such a degree that the interference pattern is washed
out. So you have a choice. You can either know which slit each electron
passed through, or you can see the interference pattern, but you cannot do
both. This is the essence of the two-slit experiment as described by
Feynman. I hope this helps.
     

Now I'm completely puzzled because this seems so non-puzzling. Just as
I thought, the detector (light) affects the particle (electron) so
that the interference pattern disappears when the detector is on and
reappears when the detector is off. It seems, then, that the only
puzzling QM phenomenon is the interference pattern (typically
explained as a wave based phenomenon) that occurs when particles are
shot through the two slits. And that phenomenon might be handled by a
property of the detector material itself (on which the interference
pattern is seen), as Bill has suggested. I still don't see why people
thought that human the "act of observation" had anything to do with
these QM phenomena.

That way of looking at it won't work for the "Quantum Erasure" phenomenon. But in any case the serious experiments on the two-slit phenomenon make sure that the wavicles are equally interfered with whether the information is or is not then made available to the outer world as to which path the entity used. Remember that this effect has been demonstrated with objects as large as fullerene molecules made of 60 carbon atoms, not just with massless photons or very light electrons.

Martin

[Martin Taylor 2010.04.15.13.53]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.0750)]

  I still don't see why people
thought that human the "act of observation" had anything to do with
these QM phenomena.

Neither do I, and neither did Shroedinger, which is why he thought up the cat. He thought it was absurd to think there was something special about a human observing, as opposed to, say, a dog or an electronic sensor. My suspicion is that it was a leftover from the Victorian era, when there were people who thought there was something about humans that made them special and distinct from the rest of the natural world. Maybe to say that the effects depended on human observation aligned humans with God in the minds of people who thought it put humans on some kind of exalted plane of existence.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.1640)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.1327 EDT)--

BG: The "act of observation" enters the picture because of the probability amplitudes
responsible for the interference.

I thought we don't really know what's responsible for the interference?

We never observe these amplitudes but only individual electrons or photons.
So long as an irreversible process has not occurred, the probability amplitudes
can produce interference.

This is all theory, right?

When an irreversible process occurs the probability amplitude "collapses" and a
particle is observed in some given state.

Sounds like still more theory (such as it is; kind of like a snazzy
way of saying "and then a miracle occurs"). But I love that word
"collapses". Maybe PCT would get more attention if we described the
theory with some cool words like that.

We go through all this because we cannot say that the electron is in given state prior
to the observation.

Why does what we say matter?

If we make this assumption, the statistics comes out wrong. So in certain experiments
we say that an electron is in in a "superposition of states", e.g. spin up and spin down.
When we observe the electron, we always find it either spin up or spin down. The
problem arises when we say that the detector is also a quantum system. The theory
then predicts that the detector is in a superposition of states corresponding to the
superposition of states of the electron. Since this is not what we observe, one
"solution" is to say that consciousness collapses the state vector.

OK, sounds very impressive but somehow not very satisfying. I still
think it's interesting that this simple little experiment has been
treated as such an important window into the nature of physical
reality. I wish psychologists could feel the same way about our simple
tracking experiments (in terms of their being an important window into
the nature of living systems, as I think they are).

If you find this a clear as mud, I refer you to Feynman who cautioned, "I think I can
safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

I do like Feynman.

And "Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, "But how can it
be like that?" because you will get "down the drain," into a blind alley from which
nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

How about if I say to myself "Maybe it's not like that". Is that OK?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.15.1758 MDT);

Rick Marken (2010.04.15.1640)]

Bruce G: > We never observe these amplitudes but only individual electrons or photons. So long as an irreversible process has not occurred, the probability amplitudes can produce interference.

RM: This is all theory, right?

BG: When an irreversible process occurs the probability amplitude "collapses" and a particle is observed in some given state.

RM: Sounds like still more theory (such as it is; kind of like a snazzy
way of saying "and then a miracle occurs").

BP: This relates to my comments a few days ago. The above statements from BG go even further than my example, in that there aren't any directly observable items at all in the list other than "interference", provided we take that term as merely descriptive of the way the screen looks (light and dark bands) rather than a reference to an invisible process of cancellation and reinforcement of waves or wavicles.

Notice the declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions of directly observed processes, though they are really predictions from theory. newcomer wouldn't know which they are.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.21.49)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.15.1758 MDT);

Notice the declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions of directly observed processes, though they are really predictions from theory. newcomer wouldn’t know which they are.

BG: Now I see the connection to PCT.

Bruce

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.2206 EDT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.15.1640)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.15.1327 EDT)--

BG: The "act of observation" enters the picture because of the probability amplitudes
responsible for the interference.

I thought we don't really know what's responsible for the interference?

BG: Just like we don't really know what's responsible for behavior? There's no evidence that there are control loops inside human beings effecting their behavior, is there? It's all just a word game.

We never observe these amplitudes but only individual electrons or photons.
So long as an irreversible process has not occurred, the probability amplitudes
can produce interference.

This is all theory, right?

BG: No it describes experimental results.

When an irreversible process occurs the probability amplitude "collapses" and a
particle is observed in some given state.

Sounds like still more theory (such as it is; kind of like a snazzy
way of saying "and then a miracle occurs"). But I love that word
"collapses". Maybe PCT would get more attention if we described the
theory with some cool words like that.

BG: Fine. If you want to believe in miracles, go right ahead. You have lots of company.

We go through all this because we cannot say that the electron is in given state prior
to the observation.

Why does what we say matter?

BG: You're right. All this stuff about control is just talk isn't it? I'll try not to take it too seriously.

If we make this assumption, the statistics comes out wrong. So in certain experiments
we say that an electron is in in a "superposition of states", e.g. spin up and spin down.
When we observe the electron, we always find it either spin up or spin down. The
problem arises when we say that the detector is also a quantum system. The theory
then predicts that the detector is in a superposition of states corresponding to the
superposition of states of the electron. Since this is not what we observe, one
"solution" is to say that consciousness collapses the state vector.

OK, sounds very impressive but somehow not very satisfying. I still
think it's interesting that this simple little experiment has been
treated as such an important window into the nature of physical
reality. I wish psychologists could feel the same way about our simple
tracking experiments (in terms of their being an important window into
the nature of living systems, as I think they are).

If you find this a clear as mud, I refer you to Feynman who cautioned, "I think I can
safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

I do like Feynman.

And "Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, "But how can it
be like that?" because you will get "down the drain," into a blind alley from which
nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

How about if I say to myself "Maybe it's not like that". Is that OK?

BG: Sure. You're not a physicist, go ahead and make a fool of yourself. Who'll even notice?

I can see that you have no interest in understanding this subject. It was naive of me to think otherwise. Not only do you and Bill know more than all the psychologists in the world, you know more than all the physicists too. I think there is a name for this. Megalomania, perhaps? You might Google it some time.

Best,

Bruce

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.16.0707 EDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.15.1758 MDT);

Rick Marken (2010.04.15.1640)]

Bruce G: > We never observe these amplitudes but only individual electrons or photons. So long as an irreversible process has not occurred, the probability amplitudes can produce interference.

RM: This is all theory, right?

BG: When an irreversible process occurs the probability amplitude "collapses" and a particle is observed in some given state.

RM: Sounds like still more theory (such as it is; kind of like a snazzy
way of saying "and then a miracle occurs").

BP: This relates to my comments a few days ago. The above statements from BG go even further than my example, in that there aren't any directly observable items at all in the list other than "interference", provided we take that term as merely descriptive of the way the screen looks (light and dark bands) rather than a reference to an invisible process of cancellation and reinforcement of waves or wavicles.

Notice the declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions of directly observed processes, though they are really predictions from theory. newcomer wouldn't know which they are.

BG: A point of clarification. Can we now assume that Rick Marken will cease to make declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions of directly observed processes, though they are really predictions from a hypothetical theory? I say hypothetical because there are no quantitative models of higher order control. The clarity would be most appreciated.

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.04.16.0818 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.16.0707 EDT) –

Bruce, you’re getting into that strange mood again. I don’t think it
makes you any happier. How about regrouping?

BP earlier: Notice the
declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions of directly
observed processes, though they are really predictions from theory.
newcomer wouldn’t know which they are.

BG: A point of clarification. Can we now assume that Rick Marken will
cease to make declarative statements that might be taken as descriptions
of directly observed processes, though they are really predictions from a
hypothetical theory? I say hypothetical because there are no quantitative
models of higher order control. The clarity would be most
appreciated.

I’m not against using declarative statements that assume the truth of a
theory; I do it myself. But I try to include a reasonable number of
disclaimers, such as “according to PCT” and “The standard
PCT diagram shows” and so on. I think disclaimers help newcomers
sort out what can actually be observed from what is only imagined. They
remind us, too, of what remains to be accomplished. The imaginary part
forms a bridge between observables and helps us find intermediate
observables (or at least tells us where too look – not finding them is
also informative). The point of science is not what we imagine but what
we actually experience. Everything hypothetical is iffy until nailed down
by an observation. And then only the observation can be deemed real. I
can observe dark and light bands on that screen behind the slits, and
nobody can tell me I don’t see them. Even when they’re only Mach bands.
Any theory that says I don’t see them is wrong – even if I’m the only
one who can see them.
There are times when we all resist inserting the disclaimers, because it
weakens the conviction behind what we’re saying. The theory, as Gilbert
and Sullivan (once), and Bob Clark (incessantly) have said, “lends
an air of verisimiltude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing tale.”
In some circumstances, these disclaimers would be positively denounced:
“Oh, God, from whom, according to the God theory, all blessings
flow…”. When we treat a theory as a truth, it becomes a belief,
and this gives beliefs entirely too much weight in our thinking.
Instead of defending quantum mechanics, why not just take it for what it
is, an attempt to make sense of observations by imagining processes and
entities that we can’t observe? Wavefronts, photons, probabilities,
entanglements, and all the rest of such paraphernalia of quantum (and
standard) mechanics are inventions of the human imagination, and are not
observable. Like electrons, protons, neutrons, neutrinos, and quarks,
they belong to a model of that which we can’t observe. If reality
contained such things and all the proposed relationships among them, then
it would necessarily react to our experimental probes by making our
perceptions change in the specific ways that we observe. But while 2 + 2
= 4, it also is true that 3 + 1 = 4, so the same predicted outcome can
occur in ways different from what we imagine.
Maybe the world of the small does work according to the baroque ad-hoc
rules of quantum mechanics. But it’s also possible that the way it works
has a far simpler explanation that we just haven’t stumbled across yet. I
remember that my friend Walter Weller, while a graduate student at the
Dearborn Observatory, used the new computer in the back room, an IBM 650,
to compute the positions of planets in the sky using epicycles, and they
worked very nicely (though Wally incurred Dr. Hynek’s wrath). All those
crystalline spheres spinning within spheres were equivalent to a Fourier
series. We know now, as Ptolemy didn’t, that any waveform however complex
can be expressed as the sum of a series of sine and cosine waves, and
that is what Wally did. Ptolemy was basically right, although the
imagined crystalline spheres didn’t have counterparts in reality. The
explanation we accept today, which has pretty much been proven by sending
spacecraft and people where theory says the planets and satellites are,
remains a theory, but hardly ever requires a disclaimer, except perhaps
“at velocities small compared with the velocity of light.” And
it’s a whole lot simpler than the crystalline spheres idea, with its
plenitude of unexplained properties.
It’s always been something of a disappointment to me that the observable
aspects of PCT get less attention than the theoretical aspects. I have
suggested, for example, that there are 11 levels of perception and
control which are related to one another in very specific,
observable, ways. I found them mostly by observing, not
theorizing. Even though it took me decades to discover those eleven (nine
without anyone else’s help), I’m sure they can’t be exactly right or in
exactly the right order or the only levels there are. If other people
would examine these proposals and compare them with their own
perceptions, some of the defects and lacks might be remedied and we could
be more sure that these are the right levels, and real, meaning common to
all of us. We have ways of setting up models and testing them, at least
for one level at a time, and with enough people doing the investigating I
think we could really get somewhere. But how many people are looking at
their own perceptions with the intent of checking out my descriptions?
And how many have just thanked me politely for the nice theory and
adopted it as a belief system?

The observed levels have nothing to do with PCT, which is an attempt to
explain how such observations might be accounted for by a model of what
we (carefully) imagine goes on inside the brain.

Fortunately, I’m now working with Henry Yin, a real neuroscientist, and
there is a good chance we will actually find things inside brains that
both account for what we observe in direct experience and correct the
interpretations that are off the mark. I doubt that this task will be
completed by only two of the hundreds of thousands of people who might
also be looking into this matter, but maybe we can get the process
started.

Bruce, every theory, including quantum mechanics and PCT, should be
assumed wrong until proven right. We shouldn’t accept any theory until we
have run out of ways to prove that it can’t be true. It’s trying
systematically, experimentally, to prove the theory wrong that teaches us
what its strengths are, and weeds out the nonsense (and in some cases, as
with phlogiston, the entire theory).

Best,

Bill P.