[From Kenny Kitzke 990204,1200EST]
<Martin Taylor 990202 20:02>
<I'm not, or not at high gain, controlling for perceiving myself as
than a monkey, a sheep, or a worm. I'm just different from them, and trying
to co-exist with them in a way that allows us all to control most of our
Do you ever eat lamb? Do you ever fish with worms strung on your hook?
I control for perceiving myself higher than these animals. I have no
illusion of having to have to co-exist with them. If a worm shows up on my
enclosed back porch, I throw it outside (my wife squashs it because she
will not pick it up). I certainly would not do that to you Martin,
because I believe that you are made higher than that worm, even if you are
not too sure of that difference.
<If you despise his sex addiction, and what he does as a
consequence, then he has done some despicable things. If you don't, he
hasn't. It's a value judgment, like "higher" when applied to life forms.>
This is fine except I would say more precisely that I despise adultery,
lying, deceiving, finger wagging, obstructing justice, violating solemn
oaths taken in God's name. I despise what Bill may have done, not him as a
higher life form. For I too have or could easily fall into the same hole.
<You have to have some kind of criterion if you are to make a value
Yes, they are my moral beliefs. Mine come from the Bible. I assume you
have some. Where do yours come from? Every tried to list them kind of
like the Ten Commandments for Martin Tailor?
<From my criteria, Mr. Clinton accepted offers from a tempting young girl,
a matter of little consequence, and tried to keep it from his wife (maybe
he didn't actually try to keep it from her--we have no evidence on that
either way, and she seems pretty open-minded about his prior behaviour).>
Have you seen the interview with Mrs. Clinton where she denied that Bill
had sex with Monica in the Whitehouse? It was a lie spread by the right
wing conspiracy. Ha! When asked if the President should be removed if
that was true, she said essentially yes. Perhaps these facts would
enlighten you about what Hillary knew and how situationally fluent her
references for morality are.
<As for keeping it from the country, that kind of thing is none of anyone
else's business outside the family, and anyone outside the family who
enquires about it is guilty of impoliteness at a minimum, and of gross
indecency if the inquiry is persistent.>
Would this be true for child abuse, sexual harrassment, homosexuality,
cruelty to animals or lying as well?
<But why do you say envy is not good for a higher-level control system?>
I say that because envy means "discontent and ill will over another's
advantage, possessions, etc. Do you claim that discontent and ill will is
good? Certainly, even a Canadian would not think that?
<It's probably occasioned by an error in the higher-level
control system, and if there isn't a conflict with other same-level
control systems, the error is likely to result in action to reduce it.
What's not good about that? And if there is a conflict with another same-
level control system, reorganization is quite likely to happen, resulting
in better overall control. That's not bad, either.>
By not envying, or coveting as the Bible calls it, the person never enters
into discontentment. No error is needed or desirable. No behavior to
reduce the envy, like making it with your best friends beautiful wife, is
required for you to control. Control is simply what living things do. PCT
and control are neither good nor bad in any moral sense.