(Gavin Ritz 2009.04.11.17.11NZT)
[From Fred Nickols (2009.04.10.1648 MST)]
Fred I pleased you are asking this question, if Prigogine would have looked
at this he would say Bill's answer is a "becoming" one he's taking the stand
with Heraclitus but what about Parmenides' "being".
PCT is trying to make a pure scientific stand on something that has a
sensual quality us "humans". Or a value. Nice reading on this is
Schr�dinger's "What is Life"
I have no doubt that we have whole sets of values and principles PCT does
this and says. It's in the HPCT model. Then it must the reference signal.
I have profiled thousands of people with my values profiler, it has even
been accurate about what a person values to the degree where I once said to
a person being profiled "would you like to drive a red BMW" and she was so
taken aback because she told me she drove a red Beamer. Are you saying that
this value did not exist with her?
Our entire marketing and segmentation concept is around the concept of
values and desires, to tell me this doesn�t not exist is really stretching
it.
Show me specifically how PCT deals with the value of beauty and harmony.
The Nazi Value system of "purity" and "world domination" is not a figment of
our imagination, it killed millions of people, are you telling me that these
values were not the foundation of National Socialism, it's something else.
Is this magical & mystical???
Regards
Gavin
Bill, I must confess I am mystified by the question at the end of your post.
If you meant to ask "How" instead of "Now" I think I get it. Otherwise, I'm
lost.
If it is "How" my answer would be the same I've given on that other list;
namely, that I don't believe in values in the ordinary usage of that term.
To my way of thinking, values are constructs or notions or, better yet,
inferred or invented explanations to account for observed behavior and
patterns in behavior. In ordinary conversation, the term "value" fits right
in with "motive" and "drive." I don't buy that magical, mystical notion of
values but, in PCT terms, I thought that what most people are really
alluding to might be observed patterns in behavior that suggest the
person(s) being observed are controlling for certain conditions (although
they would never couch it in those terms).
If I am controlling for "being respectful" to people, I have some kind of
reference signal against which my perceptions of my own behavior can be
compared. That kind of reference signal I initially placed at the principle
level. An entire code of conduct would fit at the system level (I think).
So, if my behavior is consistent with other people's notions of "being
respectful" they might infer or conclude that I value being respectful.
Similarly, if I insist on being treated with respect, they might conclude
that I value respect itself.
I don't have a good grip on all this; I'm just digging around trying to see
how values (as internal determinants of behavior) fit with PCT. Mind you,
I'm not saying that values are internal determinants of behavior but lots of
other people certainly do.
Regards,
Fred Nickols
Managing Partner
Distance Consulting LLC
nickols@att.net | www.nickols.us
"Assistance at a Distance"SM
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:33 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: A Question about Values
[From Bill Powers (2008.04.10.0922 MDT)]
Fred Nickols (2009.04.09.0707 MST) --
I'm embroiled in a discussion on another list that centers on
values. As PCT folks might suspect, values are seen there as
"driving" behavior - essentially an internal stimulus much like
"motive." It seems to me that values are similar if not the same as
principles. So, values might serve to establish or define reference
conditions but they do not "drive" behavior. Anyway, in terms of
the hierarchy, values would be at the level of principles would they not?
Depends on which values you're talking about. I value chocolate ice
cream, and I don't think that's at the level of principles. Moral
values, such as honesty, do look like principles, but even more than
principles I value the system concepts they support: the kind of
person I want to be, the kind of society I want to live in.
Doesn't a "value" imply something you try to achieve, or live up to,
or maintain? You may perceive that you haven't been as tolerant as
you would like to be. Is the value the perception you actually have,
or is it the way you would like that perception to be if you could
make it be that way? I say I value chocolate ice cream. Do I value
salty chocolate ice cream? Yuk. But I still value ice cream, even if
the ice cream of the moment doesn't quite get there.
Now do you know what a value is?
Best,
Bill P.