About CSG, or What sort of thing is CSG?

Bill, and CSGfolk,

I more or less threatened a long time ago to provide a review identifying why many people have felt dismay about various things connected with CSG. This is the long delayed, but partial expression of my interest in why there is the level of unhappiness concerning CSG that there frequently is. No need as far as I can see for anyone to anticpate being stabbed in the back, it isn't that sort of a review.

You (that is Bill Powers) may recall that years ago we had a conversation in Durango concerning the peculiar mode in which CSG organization originated. In contrast to a normal, or should I say typical, research society or research group, the CSG process is a voluntary one. In contrast to a European university department in which the Professor more or less is in command of the efforts of collection of junior faculty, and graduate students, or a well funded American research program that can count on overlapping grants and a context of a somewhat assured resources-- the CSG program depends almost altogether upon who makes a choice to join the process. One of the implications of this, it seems to me, is that many of the assumptions which one could count on in a more traditional sort of program are invalid when they are retained in the context of CSG. Not that there is neccesarily anything wrong with these assumptions, but instead that they obiviously don't apply.

As I recall you mentioned your expectation that having, in your view, demonstrated the plausiblity regarding the applicablity of the control theory model when applied to human behavior, you would then be able to move on work on developing more sophisticated applications. What actually happened was in many ways a marked departure from, what as I understand, were your initial expectations as to how things would develop. The official recognition, the invitations to lecture, the grants, and what-all never arrived.

Rather than an orderly sequence of developments upon somewhat conventional lines your work has generated several distinct applications in clinical and social/community psychology. Each of these programs has been perceived as having to some extent to have strayed from a strictly PCT or HCPT body of theoretical assumptions in favor of some other set of principles. In my view each of the programs seems to provide a useful and better alternative than similar programs with inferior theoretical foundations. So that from your standpoint, while the over all favorable effect may to some extent be gratifying, this satisfaction may be tinged with irritation as a result of the eclectic way in which these programs mix what you consider to be incompatible assumptions.

I'm of the opinion that in the absence of an exposure to programing, or exercises in breadboarding elecronmic circuits few people are going to adopt a theoretical attitude toward the application of PCT or HCPT. Explicit experience writing programs or building circuits seems to be neccesary for making a transformation from a commonsense to a theoretical worldview. And, this element seems not be a feature of any of the applications in psychology in a clinical or school setting which require some sort of activities to obtain certification.

The most prominent controvery with regard to the clinical/school/commuity applications the "I see you have choosen..." seems to me to a controversy with many ambigious sources. I will excuse myself from making a judgement.
I can plead ignorance as an excuse. However, I think there may be a principle involved. The principle being that it is unlikely that people who are primarily interested in immeadiately practical results are not the sort of people who can be expected to be exactingly observant of theoretical principles. I could be proven wrong-- it is possible that a new applied PCT psychology program might be developed that would be 100 percent control theory and nothing but control theory. Will such a program be developed anytime soon? I don't think so. And, it seems to me that there might be a control theory explaination why it is so unlikely that such a thing will happen.

And, what about the discussions on the Net? I think the recent consideration devoted to linguistic issues may have been the best in history of the CSGnet. I'm not sure if anyone was convinced by the arguments developed, and maybe after a period of recovery a return bout might be inorder. Despite complaints recently expressed regarding the tone of disucssion on the list, I returned to active partisipation because it seemed to me that the conduct of discussion was no longer as dependent upon Bill Powers as I remembered them. And, it seemed to me that this was confirmed by my two commodity model despite its defects being acknowledged as making something of a contribution to the then ongoing discussion.

But there is still I think going to be a perception on Bill Powers' part that things aren't the way they should be. And, as long as CSG is the sort of thing it is, a primarily voluntary rather than a professional society I doubt that Bill is going to feel at ease. Even if everyone is polite as can be, I don't think that CSG is ever going to match the expectations Bill has had for it. Thus, I don't think it is at all surprizing that he might consider devoting less of his time to discussions of the sort that are often the typical CSG fare.

As best I can tell, for whatever such a self-assessment is worth, the above review contains a minimum of ax grinding. At least an Ax grinding of an immeadiately personal sort. Other people, of course, may perceive the situation quite differently. And, as far as I am concerned the "other people" are welcome to their opinions.

Bill Williams

[From Bill Powers (2003.12.05.0820 MST)]

Bill Williams (2003.12.05) --0

As I recall you mentioned your expectation that having, in your view,
demonstrated the plausiblity regarding the applicablity of the control
theory model when applied to human behavior, you would then be able to
move on work on developing more sophisticated applications. What actually
happened was in many ways a marked departure from, what as I understand,
were your initial expectations as to how things would develop. The
official recognition, the invitations to lecture, the grants, and what-all
never arrived.

Actually I had quite a few -- thirty or forty -- invitations to speak at
seminars, publish papers in journals, and contribute chapters to books, and
followed through on most of them. The results were that perhaps one or two
people out of every hundred who read or heard my message would join with
me. This shows either that I failed rather miserably to make clear what
this new theory was about, or that I succeeded all too well. I think the
latter is the case.

My gravest mistake was to focus on psychology as the place to introduce
this theory. The second gravest mistake was to think that cyberneticists
would be interested. People who think they already know the answer or are
making progress in that direction apparently do not like to be told that
they have missed something of fundamental importance. The more clearly I
explained how control works, the clearer I made it that the discipline in
question had managed to get more than halfway through the 20th Century
without taking these basic relationships into account. The leaders in
various disciplines did not like this message one bit -- I wrote to many of
them, trying to get a discussion going. I think most of them dismissed me
as a nut, especially after they began to see what I meant and realized that
they didn't understand it. How could there possibly be anything that
Edelman, for instance, didn't understand? He said as much.

In my view each of the [application-type] programs seems to provide a
useful and better alternative than similar programs with inferior
theoretical foundations. So that from your standpoint, while the over all
favorable effect may to some extent be gratifying, this satisfaction may
be tinged with irritation as a result of the eclectic way in which these
programs mix what you consider to be incompatible assumptions.

Actually I still have cordial relations with Ed Ford, and have worked at
some length with the other group, IAACT, to help its leaders understand and
apply control theory and make their break with Glasser. Ed has just been
consulting me about the new edition of his Discipline book, and also sent
me a box of them so I can try to make school authorities in Durango aware
of his program. I will be working with the IAACT people in January at their
annual meeting in Hilton Head. I am working with several clinical
psychologists to explore the Method of Levels. I think your view of my
relations with the "applications" people is too gloomy.

I'm of the opinion that in the absence of an exposure to programing, or
exercises in breadboarding elecronmic circuits few people are going to
adopt a theoretical attitude toward the application of PCT or
HCPT. Explicit experience writing programs or building circuits seems to
be neccesary for making a transformation from a commonsense to a
theoretical worldview. And, this element seems not be a feature of any of
the applications in psychology in a clinical or school setting which
require some sort of activities to obtain certification.

I agree. The curricula in the behavioral sciences are far too light on
engineering, physics, and mathematics, so people in on the liberal arts
side of the campus get entirely too pessimistic an idea about their own
abilities to understand such things.

The most prominent controvery with regard to the clinical/school/commuity
applications the "I see you have choosen..." seems to me to a controversy
with many ambigious sources.

Ed Ford told me a few months ago that this phrase is no longer taught as
the proper approach in RTP. I think the most vociferous disagreements came
from others in the CSG. Some of the main opponents of this usage were RTP
instructors.

I could be proven wrong-- it is possible that a new applied PCT psychology
program might be developed that would be 100 percent control theory and
nothing but control theory. Will such a program be developed anytime
soon? I don't think so.

I think we're gradually getting there, but it may take a couple of
generations (meaning I won't see it). Most people who have learned about
PCT have been adults with long educations behind them, and thus with
interests and agendas to defend that have nothing to do with PCT. I can't
offhand think of anybody in the CSG who has dropped everything he or she
believed in before and replaced it all with control theory, even where
there is a conflict. Well, maybe a couple.

And, it seems to me that there might be a control theory explanation why
it is so unlikely that such a thing will happen.

I think it is very difficult for even a willing person to change system
concepts.

But there is still I think going to be a perception on Bill Powers' part
that things aren't the way they should be. And, as long as CSG is the
sort of thing it is, a primarily voluntary rather than a professional
society I doubt that Bill is going to feel at ease.

I suppose you're right in that I still see errors to be corrected and am
still trying to learn how to make them smaller. I feel considerably more at
ease just now than I have in the past when I thought I had to try to nurse
everyone through their private hangups and take anything anyone wanted to
dish out (because everyone was telling me how patient I was, and I had to
live up to it). It's quite a relief to tell an idiot to piss off.

Even if everyone is polite as can be, I don't think that CSG is ever going
to match the expectations Bill has had for it. Thus, I don't think it is
at all surprizing that he might consider devoting less of his time to
discussions of the sort that are often the typical CSG fare.

Oh, I think the CSG meets my expectations pretty well. I hope I've managed
to accept reality.

Best,

Bill P.

Bill,

First: I didn't mean to minimize the extent to which your work has generated attention. What I had in mind was the over absence over a very long
period of the emergence of the sort of support financial and intellectual support that might ordinarily have been expected.

Second: It wasn't my intension to over emphasize the difficulty of your relations with the various psychology/clinical groups, that wasn't what I was concerned with, but rather of the tendency of the psychology people to resist changing their systems concepts comprehensively. The result has been what seems to be a consistent tendency toward eclecticism-- this varies quite a bit between the groups. But, it illustrates the difficulty and reluctance people have, as you say to change system concepts.

Third as you say, "It's quite a relief to tell an idiot to piss off." Of course it is. However, your perception that the guy is an idiot is if not a result of, at least connected with, his disturbing you. I think the point that may be the core of what I was attempting to say comes down to this: in a situation where there is adaquate funding, the guy who is an idiot may still be an idiot, but he's not a disturbance ( not at least to you) -- he doesn't get by the secretary.

There are more cosmic issues, such as the mythical idea of a mechanicanistic physics-- now there's a systems concept for you. But, I think enough said.

Bill Williams

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) on behalf of Bill Powers
Sent: Fri 12/5/2003 10:21 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: About CSG, or What sort of thing is CSG?

[From Bill Powers (2003.12.05.0820 MST)]

Bill Williams (2003.12.05) --0

As I recall you mentioned your expectation that having, in your view,
demonstrated the plausiblity regarding the applicablity of the control
theory model when applied to human behavior, you would then be able to
move on work on developing more sophisticated applications. What actually
happened was in many ways a marked departure from, what as I understand,
were your initial expectations as to how things would develop. The
official recognition, the invitations to lecture, the grants, and what-all
never arrived.

Actually I had quite a few -- thirty or forty -- invitations to speak at
seminars, publish papers in journals, and contribute chapters to books, and
followed through on most of them. The results were that perhaps one or two
people out of every hundred who read or heard my message would join with
me. This shows either that I failed rather miserably to make clear what
this new theory was about, or that I succeeded all too well. I think the
latter is the case.

My gravest mistake was to focus on psychology as the place to introduce
this theory. The second gravest mistake was to think that cyberneticists
would be interested. People who think they already know the answer or are
making progress in that direction apparently do not like to be told that
they have missed something of fundamental importance. The more clearly I
explained how control works, the clearer I made it that the discipline in
question had managed to get more than halfway through the 20th Century
without taking these basic relationships into account. The leaders in
various disciplines did not like this message one bit -- I wrote to many of
them, trying to get a discussion going. I think most of them dismissed me
as a nut, especially after they began to see what I meant and realized that
they didn't understand it. How could there possibly be anything that
Edelman, for instance, didn't understand? He said as much.

In my view each of the [application-type] programs seems to provide a
useful and better alternative than similar programs with inferior
theoretical foundations. So that from your standpoint, while the over all
favorable effect may to some extent be gratifying, this satisfaction may
be tinged with irritation as a result of the eclectic way in which these
programs mix what you consider to be incompatible assumptions.

Actually I still have cordial relations with Ed Ford, and have worked at
some length with the other group, IAACT, to help its leaders understand and
apply control theory and make their break with Glasser. Ed has just been
consulting me about the new edition of his Discipline book, and also sent
me a box of them so I can try to make school authorities in Durango aware
of his program. I will be working with the IAACT people in January at their
annual meeting in Hilton Head. I am working with several clinical
psychologists to explore the Method of Levels. I think your view of my
relations with the "applications" people is too gloomy.

I'm of the opinion that in the absence of an exposure to programing, or
exercises in breadboarding elecronmic circuits few people are going to
adopt a theoretical attitude toward the application of PCT or
HCPT. Explicit experience writing programs or building circuits seems to
be neccesary for making a transformation from a commonsense to a
theoretical worldview. And, this element seems not be a feature of any of
the applications in psychology in a clinical or school setting which
require some sort of activities to obtain certification.

I agree. The curricula in the behavioral sciences are far too light on
engineering, physics, and mathematics, so people in on the liberal arts
side of the campus get entirely too pessimistic an idea about their own
abilities to understand such things.

The most prominent controvery with regard to the clinical/school/commuity
applications the "I see you have choosen..." seems to me to a controversy
with many ambigious sources.

Ed Ford told me a few months ago that this phrase is no longer taught as
the proper approach in RTP. I think the most vociferous disagreements came
from others in the CSG. Some of the main opponents of this usage were RTP
instructors.

I could be proven wrong-- it is possible that a new applied PCT psychology
program might be developed that would be 100 percent control theory and
nothing but control theory. Will such a program be developed anytime
soon? I don't think so.

I think we're gradually getting there, but it may take a couple of
generations (meaning I won't see it). Most people who have learned about
PCT have been adults with long educations behind them, and thus with
interests and agendas to defend that have nothing to do with PCT. I can't
offhand think of anybody in the CSG who has dropped everything he or she
believed in before and replaced it all with control theory, even where
there is a conflict. Well, maybe a couple.

And, it seems to me that there might be a control theory explanation why
it is so unlikely that such a thing will happen.

I think it is very difficult for even a willing person to change system
concepts.

But there is still I think going to be a perception on Bill Powers' part
that things aren't the way they should be. And, as long as CSG is the
sort of thing it is, a primarily voluntary rather than a professional
society I doubt that Bill is going to feel at ease.

I suppose you're right in that I still see errors to be corrected and am
still trying to learn how to make them smaller. I feel considerably more at
ease just now than I have in the past when I thought I had to try to nurse
everyone through their private hangups and take anything anyone wanted to
dish out (because everyone was telling me how patient I was, and I had to
live up to it). It's quite a relief to tell an idiot to piss off.

Even if everyone is polite as can be, I don't think that CSG is ever going
to match the expectations Bill has had for it. Thus, I don't think it is
at all surprizing that he might consider devoting less of his time to
discussions of the sort that are often the typical CSG fare.

Oh, I think the CSG meets my expectations pretty well. I hope I've managed
to accept reality.

Best,

Bill P.

from Dick Robertson, 2003.12.06.0815CST]

"Williams, William D." wrote:

Bill, and CSGfolk,

I more or less threatened a long time ago to provide a review identifying why many people have felt dismay about various things connected with CSG. This is the long delayed, but partial expression of my interest in why there is the level of unhappiness concerning CSG that there frequently is. No need as far as I can see for anyone to anticpate being stabbed in the back, it isn't that sort of a review.

You (that is Bill Powers) may recall that years ago we had a conversation in Durango concerning the peculiar mode in which CSG organization originated. In contrast to a normal, or should I say typical, research society or research group, the CSG process is a voluntary one. In contrast to a European university department in which the Professor more or less is in command of the efforts of collection of junior faculty, and graduate students, or a well funded American research program that can count on overlapping grants and a context of a somewhat assured resources-- the CSG program depends almost altogether upon who makes a choice to join the process. One of the implications of this, it seems to me, is that many of the assumptions which one could count on in a more traditional sort of program are invalid when they are retained in the context of CSG. Not that there is neccesarily anything wrong with these assumptions, but instead that they obiviously don't apply.

As I recall you mentioned your expectation that having, in your view, demonstrated the plausiblity regarding the applicablity of the control theory model when applied to human behavior, you would then be able to move on work on developing more sophisticated applications. What actually happened was in many ways a marked departure from, what as I understand, were your initial expectations as to how things would develop. The official recognition, the invitations to lecture, the grants, and what-all never arrived.

Rather than an orderly sequence of developments upon somewhat conventional lines your work has generated several distinct applications in clinical and social/community psychology. Each of these programs has been perceived as having to some extent to have strayed from a strictly PCT or HCPT body of theoretical assumptions in favor of some other set of principles. In my view each of the programs seems to provide a useful and better alternative than similar programs with inferior theoretical foundations. So that from your standpoint, while the over all favorable effect may to some extent be gratifying, this satisfaction may be tinged with irritation as a result of the eclectic way in which these programs mix what you consider to be incompatible assumptions.

I'm of the opinion that in the absence of an exposure to programing, or exercises in breadboarding elecronmic circuits few people are going to adopt a theoretical attitude toward the application of PCT or HCPT. Explicit experience writing programs or building circuits seems to be neccesary for making a transformation from a commonsense to a theoretical worldview. And, this element seems not be a feature of any of the applications in psychology in a clinical or school setting which require some sort of activities to obtain certification.

I think so too. That is why, two years ago when I made the pitch for a new IMP2 I argued for beginning it with some simple programs, like simple tracking tasks, that learners could punch in themselves, using some easy to find language like Visual basic or some other easy to access language. The simplest way to do that is simply to write out the program so that the first move students have to make is simply to copy it and run it. The written text should explain what each part of the program does (Bruce Abbott did some preliminary work along this line but with a more complicated task a few years back as I recall). The written text should also show why and how the program shows something important about behavior. This step is very important because students often won't recognize the generalizability of a tracking task to other behavior without it being specifically pointed out. After this preliminary experience of how programming works and why it is important
then the learner will be far more appreciative of what WTP's demos are illustrating.

I state this on the basis of some real experience. If I'm not mistaken I'm the first to run a whole introductory undergraduate psychology course based on PCT. A few of my students were computer majors or had learned somethng about programming as a hobby (For example, Mike Mermel, who helped me write the program for the learning plateaus experiment with a lot of guidance from Bill). However, if the student had not come to the class already knowing programming on his/her own, it was very difficult for them to appreciate fully the importance of the demos. I. e. they tended to take them as perhaps interesting illustrations of various simple behaviors. They tended to equate the "little man" with other computer games with which they were already familiar, but didn't see what could be generalized to understand complex behavior from them. And thus, the significance of the simultaneous equations for understanding feedback and the instantaneous working of the control
system, as compared to the seemingly more intuitive method of imagining the control circuit to flow sequentially around the circle, could only be comprehended by students with a better understanding of math than is usually found in the majority of psych students.

The most prominent controvery with regard to the clinical/school/commuity applications the "I see you have choosen..." seems to me to a controversy with many ambigious sources. I will excuse myself from making a judgement.
I can plead ignorance as an excuse. However, I think there may be a principle involved. The principle being that it is unlikely that people who are primarily interested in immeadiately practical results are not the sort of people who can be expected to be exactingly observant of theoretical principles. I could be proven wrong-- it is possible that a new applied PCT psychology program might be developed that would be 100 percent control theory and nothing but control theory. Will such a program be developed anytime soon? I don't think so. And, it seems to me that there might be a control theory explaination why it is so unlikely that such a thing will happen.

I would make this point in a slightly different way. Only a few students attracted to psychology are devoted to basic theory development. Most come with some more specialized interest, even if they see themselves inclined to "do research" instead of pure application. Look at the kinds of "research" areas illustrated by feature articles in the American Psychologist month after month: "A Perspective on Judgement and Choice;" "False Hopes of Self Change;" "Covert Communications in Classrooms, Clinics, Courtrooms and Cubicles;" "Validating the Measurement and Structure of Self-concept: Snapshots of Past, Present and Future Research:" (They didn't cite Robertson, Goldstein et al, surprise!), etc., etc. These are_real_ problems needing research. They propose to "research" psychological "phenomena" that affect people's real lives. In fact a recent APA president took psychologists to task for not concentrating research efforts even more strongly on topics that are
of great national concern.

It is hugely unsatisfying to the average psychology student to present him with the view that our research methodology is in too early a stage of development to have any ready applicability to these important behavioral issues, never mind how fundamentally correct that argument is. They went off from my course to other professors blythely applying contempory "methods" to these important topics.

I think an IMP2_should_ take up the various issues highlighted in the lead articles of American Psychologist, etc. and do two things with them. First, show how they would look examined from the standpoint of PCT both as to when the method of casting nets is correctly applied and when incorrectly applied on questions of specimens. Phil's contributions in this area are unique and psychology undergraduates need to have their attention drawn to them. Secondly, it should acknowledge the attraction of the issues in the light of public concerns and show the relevance of modeling to them as with the models of crowding.

And, what about the discussions on the Net? I think the recent consideration devoted to linguistic issues may have been the best in history of the CSGnet. I'm not sure if anyone was convinced by the arguments developed, and maybe after a period of recovery a return bout might be inorder. Despite complaints recently expressed regarding the tone of disucssion on the list, I returned to active partisipation because it seemed to me that the conduct of discussion was no longer as dependent upon Bill Powers as I remembered them. And, it seemed to me that this was confirmed by my two commodity model despite its defects being acknowledged as making something of a contribution to the then ongoing discussion.

Yes, I faithfully saved all of them in hopes there might still be an IMP2 in which they would certainly fit.

But there is still I think going to be a perception on Bill Powers' part that things aren't the way they should be. And, as long as CSG is the sort of thing it is, a primarily voluntary rather than a professional society I doubt that Bill is going to feel at ease. Even if everyone is polite as can be, I don't think that CSG is ever going to match the expectations Bill has had for it. Thus, I don't think it is at all surprizing that he might consider devoting less of his time to discussions of the sort that are often the typical CSG fare.

As best I can tell, for whatever such a self-assessment is worth, the above review contains a minimum of ax grinding. At least an Ax grinding of an immeadiately personal sort. Other people, of course, may perceive the situation quite differently. And, as far as I am concerned the "other people" are welcome to their opinions.

Bill Williams

I'm glad you raised this issue again Bill.

Best, Dick R.

···

Dick,

Thanks for your comments on my "About CSG..." post. Maybe as Bill Powers said my view is a bit gloomy. I however think there are some continuing, or cronic problems that may be unavoidably characteristic of an attempt to introduce a massive change in nearly everyone self-concept, and that of humanity as well.

Having actually taught control theory stuff in a regular college classroom psychology course, you can say "I've teached the course." And, it really is a job getting all the stuff together to create an alternative world for a semester.

I think about the program that you, and Mermel created. I tell you what I think about it at long intervals-- that you or someone ought to extend it. As far as I know you didn't publish even the original stuff. Or am I mistaken?

Anyway thanks again.

Bill Williams

[From Bruce Nevin (2003.12.6 22:40 EST)]

···

At 09:13 PM 12/4/2003 -0600, Williams, William D. wrote:

[...]
In contrast to a normal, or should I say typical, research society or research group, the CSG process is a voluntary one.

[Various characteristics follow.]

Another characteristic, identified in the 'economic testbed' thread, is that those drawn to CSG are frequently exploring on the margins or even marginalized in their fields, or at least less than fully committed to its standard tenets.

         /Bruce Nevin

Bruce,

I would agree with what you say,

Another characteristic, identified in the 'economic testbed' thread, is
that those drawn to CSG are frequently exploring on the margins or even
marginalized in their fields, or at least less than fully committed to its
standard tenets.

         /Bruce Nevin

I would add that there is also, at the same time, a contrasting or polar characteristic that perhaps unkindly is suggested by the caption "True Believer." I haven't read Eric Hoffer's book by this title in several decades, but perhaps I should.

Bill Williams

[From Dick Robertson,2003.12.08.0730CST]

"Williams, William D." wrote:

Dick,

Thanks for your comments on my "About CSG..." post. Maybe as Bill Powers said my view is a bit gloomy. I however think there are some continuing, or cronic problems that may be unavoidably characteristic of an attempt to introduce a massive change in nearly everyone self-concept, and that of humanity as well.

Having actually taught control theory stuff in a regular college classroom psychology course, you can say "I've teached the course." And, it really is a job getting all the stuff together to create an alternative world for a semester.

It certainly is.

I think about the program that you, and Mermel created. I tell you what I think about it at long intervals-- that you or someone ought to extend it. As far as I know you didn't publish even the original stuff. Or am I mistaken?

I often wished I could repeat the study and throw in a few improvements but when I retired from teaching there weren't any more chances to get new subjects or student assistants to run them, so I have to leave it hopefully to the new generation, hoping there will be one, which I think there will be in time.

As for publishing the original study, yes, it's The Phantom Plateau Returns--Perceptual and Motor Skills, 1985, 61, 55-64.

Best, Dick R

[Bill Williams 8 December 2003 12:32 PM CST]

Dick,

Thanks for the reference to the publication of the study. One of the reasons I found the study so interesting was that it appeared to me that it was getting at something very important in identifying an aspect of motivation that the other concepts didn't really touch. And, this aspect of motivation was very important as an economic consideration.

However, it has been so long since I've thought about it that I'll have to read the paper to see if what I remember so very vaguely is what the experiment really was about.

I've got a question about the course you taught. I vaguely remember reading the text you wrote, and long ago descriptions of the course. But, what I'd be interested in is an estimate of what happened. Such as what fraction of the students really seemed to have "gotten it." Or, did some students really resist the message?

Bill Williams

[From Dick Robertson,2003.12.09.2330CST]

"Williams, William D." wrote:

[Bill Williams 8 December 2003 12:32 PM CST]

Dick,

Thanks for the reference to the publication of the study. One of the reasons I found the study so interesting was that it appeared to me that it was getting at something very important in identifying an aspect of motivation that the other concepts didn't really touch. And, this aspect of motivation was very important as an economic consideration.

However, it has been so long since I've thought about it that I'll have to read the paper to see if what I remember so very vaguely is what the experiment really was about.

I've got a question about the course you taught. I vaguely remember reading the text you wrote, and long ago descriptions of the course. But, what I'd be interested in is an estimate of what happened. Such as what fraction of the students really seemed to have "gotten it." Or, did some students really resist the message?

Hi Bill,

As best as I can answer your question I would say that out of two or three years courses a half dozen to a dozen or so students really got it to the point where they could apply it in their lives. In fact it was in a second course (seminar style, 6 or 7 students) that a discussion came up that eventuated in the Robertson, Goldstein et. al. papers.
Several more seemed to understand it to some extent, but I think they probably forgot it fairly quickly as they went on to other courses where they had once more to talk in S-R terms in order to survive.

I'm still occasionally in touch with 2 or 3. One might even show up at our July 04 meeting.

Best, Dick R

···

[From Bill Williams 9 December 2003 11:54 PM CST]

Dick,

Thanks for the description of the control theory course results. I don't know how you view the numbers that really got it, as a sucess or as a rather disapointing outcome. Your numbers match the results I've observed from my own experience with what I thought were very effective courses.

Innovation in economics faces a similiar difficulty to the one you report-- students must master the content of a prevailing orthodoxy. I've been fortunate recently in being in a situation in which I've had a student who has passed the comps and is now set up with a tolerant dissertation panel. Never thought I'd have a dissertation student. But, it isn't ideal. The student isn't going to learn programing or do modeling.

Bill Williams

[From Dick Robertson, 2003.12.11.2300CST]

"Williams, William D." wrote:

[From Bill Williams 9 December 2003 11:54 PM CST]

Dick,

Thanks for the description of the control theory course results. I don't know how you view the numbers that really got it, as a sucess or as a rather disapointing outcome. Your numbers match the results I've observed from my own experience with what I thought were very effective courses.

I guess I felt it was a modest success. I seem to have read of some one's study somewhere in which they concluded that only about 10% of any intellectual target audience seizes onto revolutionary ideas.

Innovation in economics faces a similiar difficulty to the one you report-- students must master the content of a prevailing orthodoxy. I've been fortunate recently in being in a situation in which I've had a student who has passed the comps and is now set up with a tolerant dissertation panel. Never thought I'd have a dissertation student. But, it isn't ideal. The student isn't going to learn programing or do modeling.

Better than the alternative I'd say.

···

Bill Williams