Action Science

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.0950)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1059) to Bill Powers --

Bill, I hear your frustration...We are not rivals with Argyris.

In his post [Bill Powers (2003.05.12.0750 MDT)], Bill showed the Argyris's words
indicate that he has a programmed action model of behavior. This is one of the
models that is a rival to PCT. So it looks pretty clear that PCT and Argyris'
theory are rivals. So? That's what science is about: testing alternative
theories. We have done a number of experimental studies that show that Argyris'
theory is wrong. So I guess maybe PCT is not a rival with Argyris' theory since
the latter has already lost.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.12.0750 MDT)]

Here is a quote from the start of Chapter 3 in Argyris' _Action Science_,
about page 80 of the book:

"The theory of action approach begins with a conception
of human beings as designers of action. To see human behavior
under the aspect of action is to see it as constituted by the
meanings and intentions of agents. Agents design action to
achieve intended consequences, and monitor themselves to learn
if their actions are effective. They make sense of their environment
by constructing meanings to which they attend, and these
constructions in turn guide action. In monitoring the effectiveness
of action, they also monitor the suitability of their construction
of the environment." (p. 80-81)

This is one of the theories with which PCT has had to compete since the
beginning. The organism analyses its environment, and designs or computes
the actions required to achieve intended outcomes. When you ask about the
details of what is needed to be able to do this, you end up with "modern
control theory," and a model with infinite knowlege of the physical world,
the laws of physics and chemistry, and its own anatomy -- not to mention a
Pentium 40 computer and actuators and sensors of infinite precision that
never change their calibration, in an environment containing no unexpected
("unmodeled") disturbances.

It also includes a second model that is actually incompatible with the one
just described: it says that actions are guided by sensory inputs , not
desired consequences. This seems to be an attempt to merge the
stimulus-response view with the cognitive-science view.

Now consider this passage from later in the chapter:

" ...agents learn a repertoire of concepts, schemas, and strategies,
and they learn programs for drawing from their repertoire to
design representations and action for unique situations. We
speak of such design programs as theories of action.
These theories may be thought of as a very large set of
complexly related propositions. The form of a proposition in a
theory of action is, "In situation s, to achieve consequence c,
do action a" (Argyris and Schon, 1974). From the perspective
of the agent who holds the theory, it is a theory of control. It
states what the agent should do to achieve certain results. From
an observer's perspective, to attribute a theory of action to an
agent is to propose a theory of explanation or prediction. In the
language of the previous chapter, it is to make a dispositional attribution.
The example we used is, "John follows the rule, 'If I
am about to deprecate someone, first deprecate myself." " But
from John's perspective, this is a theory of control. We can see
this by making explicit the intended consequence of enacting
the rule, which, let us suppose, is to avoid making the other person
defensive. Hence a proposition of a theory of action can be
understood both as a disposition of an agent and as a theory of
causal responsibility held by an agent."

When I first came across this passage I thought it looked promising, but
the catch is in what Argyris means by the word "control". He does not mean
varying actions to control perceptions, but says " a theory of control ...
states what the agent should do to achieve certain results." That is not
what control means in PCT. He is repeating what he said in the first quote
above: control is a mtter of deciding what output to produce to have an
intended consequence.

If my guesses about the levels of control are correct, we shouldn't be
surprised to find that Argyris' writings include programs, principles, and
system concents: the above snippet clearly shows programs (the rule for
self-deprecation) and principles (don't make others defensive). Everybody
who writes about such things speaks in terms of programs, principles, and
system concepts whether they know it or not (they usually don't), so this
is nothing startling. What distinguishes Action Science from other schemes
is only _which_ programs and principles are proposed to be important.

The basic problem is this. Argyris says, " The form of a proposition in a
theory of action is, 'In situation s, to achieve consequence c,do action a
(Argyris and Schon, 1974)' ". This is a purely logic-level prescription,
formally identical to Skinner's theory of reinforcement. The "situation" is
the discriminative stimulus; the consequence is the reinforcement, and
"action a" is the behavior that is reinforced. I claim, of course, that
while it is possible for people to construct theories of action of this
sort, it is also possible (I would say probable) that the behavior
described in this way is not actually produced that way at all.

This problem is similar to one I have mentioned before concerning
rule-driven behavior. You may be able to interpret behavior as following a
certain symbolicly-stated rule, but symbolically-stated rules may have
nothing to do with that behavior even if you can predict it from the rule.
Consider the raindrop rule: if you have not hit the ground, keep falling.
Otherwise, go "splat." This rule predicts what raindrops will do in the
vast majority of cases, but raindrops do not apply this rule or behave
because of it; they fall and go splat because of gravity and mechanical
interactions. The rule is in the eye of the observer.

In the case of the "theory of action", it may well be that we observe
action a, in situation s, to be the one that produces consequence c, so we
make up a rule to summarize this observation. The flaw in our assumption
will remain undiscovered until something in the environment changes so that
in the same situation. action a produces consequence d . Then we find that
instead of action a and a new consequence d, we get a new action b and
consequence c as before. The action, under the same perceived conditions,
changes so as to make the same consequence as before occur. The rat changes
its action until, after the same discriminative stimulus as before, it
makes the reinforcer appear again.

To discover these somewhat surpring anomalies, one has to deliberately
introduce disturbances that alter the way behavior affects the final
outcome. Then it becomes clear that what is controlled is the outcome, and
that this is not done simply by repeating the behavior that produced it
before. To understand how it _is_ done, you have to get into negative
feedback control systems and understand how they work.

I find books like _Action Science_ very hard to read; I feel lost in a
blizzard of words. Once in a while something interesting shows through the
murk, but most of the time I find myself wondering "How does he know that's
true? Why did he cite that person? Why did he use that word? When is he
going to get to the point?" Little snippets of what this person or that
person said don't tell me anything, particularly when nobody ever defines
any word, and when mentions of some idea are simply dropped, as if they had
served some purpose and now could be forgotten. I forget all too easily.

I guess I'm just not the academic type.

Best,

Bill P.

Best,

Bill P.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
The Wizard Of Oz

"Convince a man against his will;
He's of the same opinion still."
Embroidery by Grammy Alice

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1215)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1322)--

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.0950)--

>This [Argyris's model] is one of the models that is a rival to PCT.

Rival? PCT has no rival. I know of no other theory of human behavior that
uses the concept of control and hierarchy. Do you?

That's not what a rival theory is. A rival theories provide alternative
explanations of the same phenomena. Thus cognitive theory rivals PCT because it
purports to explain many of the same phenomena, not because it uses the same
explanatory mechanisms (like a hierarchy of control loops)

>So it looks pretty clear that PCT and Argyris' theory are rivals.

Rivals over what? Argyris makes no claims to a theory of human behavior.

Well, if that's true then Argyris' theory is certainly not a rival of PCT. But
the stuff Bill posted sure sounded like Argyris was proposing a theory of how
people achieve goals, which is certainly a behavior.

>So? That's what science is about: testing alternative theories.

Yes, if they were "alternative" explanations for the same phenomena, but
they are not. There is clearly some overlap, but rivals?, hardly.

OK. If Argyris' theory is not a rival to PCT then it's irrelevant to me.

>We have done a number of experimental studies that show that Argyris'
theory is wrong.

You have done no such thing.

I was thinking of the research described in the "Models and their worlds" paper by
Bourbon and Powers. They showed that a programmed output model could not achieve
goal results in a disturbance prone environment, as people do.

And it is wild claims like this that get you into trouble with others.

The claim wasn't wild. It was informed by quite a copious amount of research. It
may get me into trouble but that's the way science is; it often produces results
that are inconsistent with some people's most fervent hopes.

your experimental studies show that the behavioral
model Argyris is using for _his_ theories and methods is incorrect.

What? The model he's using for his theories? So output generation is the model
that is the basis of his theories? What are his theories?

>So I guess maybe PCT is not a rival with Argyris' theory since the latter
has already lost.

lost?, exactly what did you win?

The explanation of behavior game.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0512.1248)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1059)

"...It suggests that as to research, behavior is the penultimate variable to
study, the ultimate variable being the theory-in-use through which human
beings produce their actions. The main task, we believe, is to identify the
conceptual models that form the basis for people's theories-in-use. As to
practice, the observation described above suggests that practitioners should
be helped to focus on their theories-in-use, especially the causal reasoning
embedded in them." (*Theory in Practice*, 1974).

I have become increasingly interested in the theories-in-use and the causal
reasoning embedded in these theories insofar as thermostats are concerned. I
have come to the conclusion that thermostats believe that they are able to
causally influence the temperature of their environment by following this program:

If the temperature is "too low," check to see if the furnace is on.
If the funace is on, leave it on.
If the furnace is not on, turn it on.

If the temperature is "not too low," check to see if the furnace is on.
If the furnace is on, turn it off.
If the furnace is off, leave it off.

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0512.1336)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1307)

You are not talking about theories-in-use. You are talking about single and
double-loop learning. You apparently either missed or misinterpreted my post
earlier today. In it I posted a`quote to the effect that Arygris found
_behavior_ to be the penultimate variable to study.

Me too.

  He believes the ultimate

variable to study being the theories-in-use through which humans produce
their actions.

Me too.

Both of your examples are examples of single-loop learning.

I only gave one example and no learning was involved.

(i.e. a change in "action strategy" alone) the thermostat does not act
alone, and cannot act alone. A human agent must set it.

I don't know about that. I haven't touched my thermostat in years. It _seems_
to have a mind of its own.

A "double-loop"
problem would be to understand the "principles" and inferences a person
would use in setting the thermostat.

I want to understand the principles and inferences that the thermostat uses to
guide its actions. If anyone set the thermostat he or she did so years ago.
All I know is the behavior I can observe now. You are conjecturing that a
human being is behind the thermostat's behavior. What evidence do you have to
support this assumption?

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1400)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1531)--

You get the last word. You usually do. Enjoy your win

I'm not trying to win. I don't think I won anything. I'm just telling you my
evaluation of Argyris' theory. It looks to me like output computation theory (or
"modern control theory" if you like). A lot of PCT research has been aimed at
showing what's wrong with this kind of theory. But if you like it, go with it.

As far as theories being based on PCT, well, that just doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't mean I win anything. It just means that it makes no sense to me.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1059) ]

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.12.0750 MDT)]

Bill, I hear your frustration. It is with the notion of clarity that I bring
"Action Science" to CSGnet. It is obvious in all the readings I have done,
that Argyris does not fully understand why his methods actually work and
what he is actually "seeing". As I said in an earlier post today. His
espoused views are his writings. The data, and his theories-in-use is
PCT/HPCT. The man needs to be shown how HPCT does in fact explain his
methods. We are not rivals with Argyris. We do not share a common goal. We
have overlapping interests, but different ends. I believe he succinctly sums
his feelings up with this statement, In talking about _all_ of his research
over the years he says;

"...It suggests that as to research, behavior is the penultimate variable to
study, the ultimate variable being the theory-in-use through which human
beings produce their actions. The main task, we believe, is to identify the
conceptual models that form the basis for people's theories-in-use. As to
practice, the observation described above suggests that practitioners should
be helped to focus on their theories-in-use, especially the causal reasoning
embedded in them." (*Theory in Practice*, 1974).

To this end I believe we can be of mutual benefit to each other. We are
interested in ( at least I am ) learning more about the upper levels of the
hierarchy. They are interested in understanding how we come to our
theories-in-use. I believe we can help them here. As an old salesmen, I feel
we both have something each other can use and benefit from. I believe a
"sale" can be made here. Now it is important to understand what I mean by a
"sale". It is _NOT_ convincing the other guy to discard his current line of
thinking. Argyris is and has used a Cog sci approach to his methods. it
won't due, simply to tell him that he is wrong or misguided, any more then
it would be for Argyris to tell us that we are.

In order for collaboration to be of any use to anyone we _both_ must be open
to the notion of change. If either one of us insists that it is the other
one only who must change, it will not work. that is not to say that both
_will_ or must change. Just that we both be open to the possibility of
change.
In order to do this we _both_ must try and;

* Ask to specify when faced with vagueness
* Clarify when we face ambiguity
*Test, when something has not been, and needs to be tested
* Concert, when information is scattered
* Be able to talk about possible "hidden agenda's"
* To inquire when uncertain about what the other "intends"
* To resolve issues of either inconsistency or incompatibility.

I will strive for this with Bob Putnam, and other Action Science
researchers/practitioners. I would hope others interested in collaboration
would do the same.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1510)]

Bruce Gregory 2003.0512.1719)--

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.0950)

> We have done a number of experimental studies that show that Argyris'
> theory is wrong.

Doesn't that depend on whether my Action Theory of the thermostat is a
correct interpretation of Argyris?

I depends on my interpretation of Action Theory being correct. If your interpretation
is correct then Action Theory is control theory and there are not experimental
studies that show control theory to be wrong...yet.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1307) ]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0512.1248)]

I have become increasingly interested in the theories-in-use and the

causal

reasoning embedded in these theories insofar as thermostats are concerned.

I

have come to the conclusion that thermostats believe that they are able to
causally influence the temperature of their environment by following this

program:

You are not talking about theories-in-use. You are talking about single and
double-loop learning. You apparently either missed or misinterpreted my post
earlier today. In it I posted a`quote to the effect that Arygris found
_behavior_ to be the penultimate variable to study. He believes the ultimate
variable to study being the theories-in-use through which humans produce
their actions. Both of your examples are examples of single-loop learning.
(i.e. a change in "action strategy" alone) the thermostat does not act
alone, and cannot act alone. A human agent must set it. A "double-loop"
problem would be to understand the "principles" and inferences a person
would use in setting the thermostat.

If the temperature is "too low," check to see if the furnace is on.
If the funace is on, leave it on.
If the furnace is not on, turn it on.

If the temperature is "not too low," check to see if the furnace is on.
If the furnace is on, turn it off.
If the furnace is off, leave it off.

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1322) ]

Purpose:

This is my final post in this thread. I am replying to it for the record
only, there doesn't seem to be much reason to continue. Time to move on.
Btw, Rick, you won.

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.0950)]

In his post [Bill Powers (2003.05.12.0750 MDT)], Bill showed the Argyris's

words

indicate that he has a programmed action model of behavior.

Yes, I said it right off the bat in my original post on the subject. From
[ Marc Abrams (2003.05.11.1033) ] " ...This model is based on Cog Sci
principles." that is what he believes is the basis for his research and
methods.

This is one of the models that is a rival to PCT.

Rival? PCT has no rival. I know of no other theory of human behavior that
uses the concept of control and hierarchy. Do you?

So it looks pretty clear that PCT and Argyris' theory are rivals.

Rivals over what? Argyris makes no claims to a theory of human behavior.
Where do you think he does?

So? That's what science is about: testing alternative theories.

Yes, if they were "alternative" explanations for the same phenomena, but
they are not. There is clearly some overlap, but rivals?, hardly.

We have done a number of experimental studies that show that Argyris'

theory is wrong.

You have done no such thing. And it is wild claims like this that get you
into trouble with others. your experimental studies show that the behavioral
model Argyris is using for _his_ theories and methods is incorrect. It does
not show _his_ theories and methods are incorrect. As I said in an earlier
post. In it I posted a`quote to the effect that Arygris found _behavior_ to
be the penultimate variable to study. He believes the ultimate
variable to study being the theories-in-use through which humans produce
their actions. Where do you see a rivalry and where is he "wrong".

So I guess maybe PCT is not a rival with Argyris' theory since the latter

has already lost.

lost?, exactly what did you win?

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1411) ]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0512.1336)]

I see it's time for a phone call. :slight_smile:

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory 2003.0512.1719)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.0950)

In his post [Bill Powers (2003.05.12.0750 MDT)], Bill showed the Argyris's words
indicate that he has a programmed action model of behavior. This is one of the
models that is a rival to PCT. So it looks pretty clear that PCT and Argyris'
theory are rivals. So? That's what science is about: testing alternative
theories. We have done a number of experimental studies that show that Argyris'
theory is wrong.

Doesn't that depend on whether my Action Theory of the thermostat is a
correct interpretation of Argyris?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1427)]

My last post replying to Bruce was meant to be sent privately. Sorry, no
harm done.

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0512.1336)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1307)
>

>
> You are not talking about theories-in-use. You are talking about single

and

> double-loop learning. You apparently either missed or misinterpreted my

post

> earlier today. In it I posted a`quote to the effect that Argyrols found
> _behavior_ to be the penultimate variable to study.

Me too.

Could you please elaborate on this "Me too"? What are you me-too'ing to.
This misrepresentation, or agreement with Argyris. I have no idea what you
are talking about with this "Me too".

  He believes the ultimate
> variable to study being the theories-in-use through which humans produce
> their actions.

Me too.

Can you please tell me in your own words what you believe theories-in-use to
be?

I only gave one example and no learning was involved.

No. learning was not involved. I used the examples as an analogy to
learning. You didn't.

> (i.e. a change in "action strategy" alone) the thermostat does not act
> alone, and cannot act alone. A human agent must set it.

I don't know about that. I haven't touched my thermostat in years. It

_seems_

to have a mind of its own.

You apparently, by this remark, do not understand either Argyris' concept of
learning or his notion of theories-in-use, maybe both. You seem comfortable
with that, so I am to.

I want to understand the principles and inferences that the thermostat

uses to

guide its actions.

No. It's apparent you do not understand. The thermostat does no "acting".
Principles and inferences are reserved for the people who act on a
thermostat. Even if that action is only once.

If anyone set the thermostat he or she did so years ago.
All I know is the behavior I can observe now.

What behavior do you observe from your thermostat?

You are conjecturing that a human being is behind the thermostat's

behavior.

No. A thermostat does not behave.

What evidence do you have to support this assumption?

The boiler or air conditioner act. (i.e. they do something) the thermostat
simply tells them when to do it. ( program level ). Above that are
principles and systems levels, such as I feel "comfortable" at so and so
temperature.

Argyris ( and so am I ) is mainly interested in how the principle and system
levels in conjunction with the program level, control the boiler and air
conditioner. he doesn't say it that way, but that is what infer from his
literature.

What do you have to support your view?

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1531) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1215)]

> Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1322)--

You get the last word. You usually do. Enjoy your win

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory 92003.0512.1922)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1427)

Could you please elaborate on this "Me too"? What are you me-too'ing to.
This misrepresentation, or agreement with Argyris. I have no idea what you
are talking about with this "Me too".

I too believe that behavior is the penultimate variable to study.

Can you please tell me in your own words what you believe theories-in-use to
be?

Theories-in-use are the conceptual systems that control systems (such as
thermostat/furnace systems) use to guide their actions.

You apparently, by this remark, do not understand either Argyris' concept of
learning or his notion of theories-in-use, maybe both. You seem comfortable
with that, so I am to.

Quite untrue as far as I am concerned. You'll have to explain why my
application of Argyris's concept of theories-in-use is wrong. Unless, of
course, you are not interested.

I want to understand the principles and inferences that the thermostat
uses to guide its actions.

No. It's apparent you do not understand. The thermostat does no "acting".
Principles and inferences are reserved for the people who act on a
thermostat. Even if that action is only once.

Suppose you can only observe the furnace. How can you tell if I am
turning it off or the thermostat is turning it off? Why does Argyris's
theory apply in one case and not the other? To phrase the question a
little differently, what test would Argyris use to determine if I am
turning the furnace on and off (so his theory applies) or the thermostat
is turning the furnace on and off (so his theory does not apply)?

What behavior do you observe from your thermostat?

It turns the furnace on and off.

No. A thermostat does not behave.

Am I behaving if I turn the furnace on and off?

The boiler or air conditioner act. (i.e. they do something) the thermostat
simply tells them when to do it. ( program level ). Above that are
principles and systems levels, such as I feel "comfortable" at so and so
temperature.

All you can see is the furnace being turned on and off. How do you (and
Argyris) infer the existence of principles and systems levels in this case?

Argyris ( and so am I ) is mainly interested in how the principle and system
levels in conjunction with the program level, control the boiler and air
conditioner. he doesn't say it that way, but that is what infer from his
literature.

What data are you using (besides the "behavior" of the furnace)?

What do you have to support your view?

I tried to be very specific. What else would you like to know?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

from [Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1906)]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1400)]

I'm not trying to win.

You said in your previous post you won. You have said in the past you take
words literally. I take you at your word.

I don't think I won anything.

I didn't want to be the one breaking the news to you.

I'm just telling you my evaluation of Argyris' theory.

Excuse me. What exactly did you "evaluate"? My introductory remarks? I would
hardly call that "researching an issue" or "due diligence", would you. How
do you know I didn't make it all up?, or that you would interpret the same
written material as I would? Maybe it all doesn't matter. That's fine, jusr
please don't waste my time asking me to clarify something you have no real
interest in me having clarify. it would make it a whole lot easier on both
of us if you just came right out and said; "Marc, this is the way I feel and
there is nothing you can do or say to convince me otherwise, my mind is
set." I would say great, and move on, saving you and me a great deal of
time.

>It looks to me like output computation theory (or "modern control theory"
if you like).

Nope. It's plain old Cog Sci. Nothing new or fancy. Argyris attributes all
his nifty theories and methods to Cog Sci. Of course he is wrong. All you
need to do is look at the phenomena he is describing and any good PCTer
could tell that. Of course that PCTer would have had to have read a minimum
of 7-9 of his and Schon's books to know that. You might have gotten a
glimmer after 2 books but not less. ( well, maybe one, if it was *Reasoning,
Learning, and Action*) Bill has read the first 3 chapters of *Action
Science* and doesn't quite see anything. That is because *Action Science*
devotes itself mostly to the researcher/practioner question, not to the
other 3 paths he has taken. But you never asked. Your assumptions might ( I
think they are from the data (words) I see you use ) be wrong. In most cases
it really doesn't matter. Sometimes it does. You need to decide when it is
or isn't and percieve accordingly.

A lot of PCT research has been aimed at showing what's wrong with this kind

of theory. But if you like it, go with it.

I think to much time has been spent in the negative and not enough in the
positive. I could care less tying to prove someone wrong. I want to spend my
time trying to see _IF_ I'm right. I will offer you the same pearls of
wisdom; If you like it, go with it.

As far as theories being based on PCT, well, that just doesn't make sense

to me.

"based" on PCT. All human nature, if not directly, is ultimately affected by
control.

It doesn't mean I win anything. It just means that it makes no sense to

me.

Then say that the next time. If you need clarification ask for it. If you
don't want it or don't care, don't. You are not doing me any favors. I will
always welcome your input and dialogue. When you show a disinterest in what
I have to say, we have reached the point where our conversation ends.

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1939) ]

[From Bruce Gregory 92003.0512.1922)]

> Can you please tell me in your own words what you believe

theories-in-use to

> be?

Theories-in-use are the conceptual systems that control systems (such as
thermostat/furnace systems) use to guide their actions.

I can see how you might think of it this way. Let me try another. It seems
to me that you have seperated control systems from conceptual systems. Am I
reading this right? If so, please elaborate on how you feel conceptual
systems and control systems interact.

> You apparently, by this remark, do not understand either Argyris'

concept of

> learning or his notion of theories-in-use, maybe both. You seem

comfortable

> with that, so I am to.

Quite untrue as far as I am concerned. You'll have to explain why my
application of Argyris's concept of theories-in-use is wrong. Unless, of
course, you are not interested.

You know better. :wink: I need an answer to the question above before
preceding.

Suppose you can only observe the furnace. How can you tell if I am
turning it off or the thermostat is turning it off?

You can't. How do I know from observing your actions why you are acting in
that fashion. Maybe I can, maybe I can't.

Why does Argyris's theory apply in one case and not the other?

Sorry Bruce, I lost you here. Which case does it not apply to?

To phrase the question a little differently, what test would Argyris use to

determine if I am

turning the furnace on and off (so his theory applies) or the thermostat
is turning the furnace on and off (so his theory does not apply)?

I can't answer this without the answer to the question above. I don't know
what case isn't described. There is _much_ that is not explained.

> Argyris ( and so am I ) is mainly interested in how the principle and

system

> levels in conjunction with the program level, control the boiler and air
> conditioner. he doesn't say it that way, but that is what infer from his
> literature.

What data are you using (besides the "behavior" of the furnace)?

What other kind of data would suffice?

> What do you have to support your view?

I tried to be very specific. What else would you like to know?

You did not address the issue of analogy. You did not address the issue of
learning. You seem to be fixated on the thermostat. The thermostat might
turn out to be a bad analogue for human cognitive issues.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.12.2210)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.12.1906)

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.1400)

> I'm not trying to win.

You said in your previous post you won. You have said in the past you take
words literally. I take you at your word.

Neither of these things sounds like me (to me). Could you please show me where
I said "I won" and that I take words literally? I think I remember saying that
action theory had _lost_ against PCT in experimental tests. But that's not me
winning over you. It's an explanation "winning" over another explanation as a
result of experimental test. Is that what you were talking about?

>I'm just telling you my evaluation of Argyris' theory.

Excuse me. What exactly did you "evaluate"?

Bill's post from earlier today (2003.05.12.0750 MDT) which quoted Argyris.
Action science sounds like a typical computed output model of behavior to me.
That's my evaluation of it.

>It looks to me like output computation theory (or "modern control theory"
if you like).

Nope. It's plain old Cog Sci.

Cog Sci is the name of a discipline. Output computation theories (there are
several versions) are one class of theories within Cog Sci.

Nothing new or fancy. Argyris attributes all
his nifty theories and methods to Cog Sci. Of course he is wrong. All you
need to do is look at the phenomena he is describing and any good PCTer
could tell that.

You can't look at phenomena and tell what kind of theory is being used to
account for them. You look at the theory to see what kind of theory it is. It's
clear to me from reading Bill's quotes from _Action Science_ that that theory
is just a version of computed output theories of control.

Bill has read the first 3 chapters of *Action
Science* and doesn't quite see anything.

No. He (like me) sees an output generation theory. That's all a PCTer needs to
know in order to know that the theory is of no interest to a PCTer. We've been
there, done that.

>A lot of PCT research has been aimed at showing what's wrong with this kind
> of theory. But if you like it, go with it.

I think to much time has been spent in the negative and not enough in the
positive. I could care less tying to prove someone wrong. I want to spend my
time trying to see _IF_ I'm right.

The only reason we have spent time trying to prove that theories like action
theory are wrong is so that people will see that they are wasting their time on
them and start looking in directions where might lie theories that are right.
You say we have spent too much time on this negative research. Apparently we
haven't spent nearly enough if you can see research like that described in
"Models and their worlds" (and in several of my own papers) and can still
imagine that there is something to be learned from an output generation model
of behavior.

> As far as theories being based on PCT, well, that just doesn't make sense
to me.

"based" on PCT. All human nature, if not directly, is ultimately affected by
control.

What does this have to do with the idea that a theory (like action theory)
might be based on PCT? PCT is a theory of behavior; it's not the basis of
_other_ theories of behavior.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Fred Nickols (2003.05.13.0543 EDT)] --

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.2210)]

Bill's post from earlier today (2003.05.12.0750 MDT) which quoted Argyris.
Action science sounds like a typical computed output model of behavior to me.
That's my evaluation of it.

If "computed output" is one model would it be fair to say that PCT is a
"controlled input" model?

Regards,

Fred Nickols
nickols@safe-t.net

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0513.0613)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.12.2210)

You can't look at phenomena and tell what kind of theory is being used to
account for them. You look at the theory to see what kind of theory it is. It's
clear to me from reading Bill's quotes from _Action Science_ that that theory
is just a version of computed output theories of control.

If you responded to my earlier query, I'm afraid I missed it. My model
of the thermostat/furnace appears to me at least to be a variety of
computed output control. Where have I gone astray?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org