An appeal for support

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There you will find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies multi-joint integration for fast feedback control." The abstract concludes, "... this provides neurophysiological support for influential theories positing that voluntary movement is generated by the intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback." You might incorrectly think that among these influential theories proposing that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback (perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory and some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed equally to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University, Kingston, Ontario. The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom Bourbon's (a cofounder of the Control Systems Group) at Stephen F. Austin State University at Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the CSG from shortly after it was formed, an association which continued through the years at Brandeis University where he got his PhD, just before he moved to Queen's University. He attended many CSG meetings and was surely acquainted with all my writings and models except perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems III.

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that have come out of it are flawed. If that is what he concluded, however, that is what he should say, because PCT has been established well enough to be at least worthy of consideration if not belief, and should not simply be ignored. If, on the other hand, he attempted to persuade his co-authors that PCT should be considered but was unable to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific morality, should have declared their reasons for not considering it important. Or so it seems to me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT that I see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I hope the result will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or perhaps some posts to the email address given as the appropriate point of contact with the authors:

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

Okay Bill can you send me the full article.

What specifically are you concerned about?

Regards
Gavin

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There
you will find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies
multi-joint integration for fast feedback control." The abstract
concludes, "... this provides neurophysiological support for
influential theories positing that voluntary movement is generated by
the intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback." You might
incorrectly think that among these influential theories proposing
that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback
(perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory
and some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still
incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed
equally to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University,
Kingston, Ontario. The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom
Bourbon's (a cofounder of the Control Systems Group) at Stephen F.
Austin State University at Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the
CSG from shortly after it was formed, an association which continued
through the years at Brandeis University where he got his PhD, just
before he moved to Queen's University. He attended many CSG meetings
and was surely acquainted with all my writings and models except
perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems III.

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an
incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that
have come out of it are flawed. If that is what he concluded,
however, that is what he should say, because PCT has been established
well enough to be at least worthy of consideration if not belief, and
should not simply be ignored. If, on the other hand, he attempted to
persuade his co-authors that PCT should be considered but was unable
to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific morality, should have
declared their reasons for not considering it important. Or so it seems to
me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT
that I see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I
hope the result will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or
perhaps some posts to the email address given as the appropriate
point of contact with the authors:

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

Here's the article in question.
Ted

nature10436.pdf (351 KB)

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:45 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: An appeal for support

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There
you will find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies
multi-joint integration for fast feedback control." The abstract
concludes, "... this provides neurophysiological support for
influential theories positing that voluntary movement is generated by
the intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback." You might
incorrectly think that among these influential theories proposing
that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback
(perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory
and some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still
incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed
equally to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University,
Kingston, Ontario. The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom
Bourbon's (a cofounder of the Control Systems Group) at Stephen F.
Austin State University at Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the
CSG from shortly after it was formed, an association which continued
through the years at Brandeis University where he got his PhD, just
before he moved to Queen's University. He attended many CSG meetings
and was surely acquainted with all my writings and models except
perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems III.

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an
incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that
have come out of it are flawed. If that is what he concluded,
however, that is what he should say, because PCT has been established
well enough to be at least worthy of consideration if not belief, and
should not simply be ignored. If, on the other hand, he attempted to
persuade his co-authors that PCT should be considered but was unable
to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific morality, should have
declared their reasons for not considering it important. Or so it seems to
me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT
that I see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I
hope the result will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or
perhaps some posts to the email address given as the appropriate
point of contact with the authors:

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

Thanks Ted

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Cloak
Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:04 p.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: An appeal for support

Here's the article in question.
Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:45 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: An appeal for support

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There
you will find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies
multi-joint integration for fast feedback control." The abstract
concludes, "... this provides neurophysiological support for
influential theories positing that voluntary movement is generated by
the intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback." You might
incorrectly think that among these influential theories proposing
that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback
(perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory
and some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still
incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed
equally to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University,
Kingston, Ontario. The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom
Bourbon's (a cofounder of the Control Systems Group) at Stephen F.
Austin State University at Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the
CSG from shortly after it was formed, an association which continued
through the years at Brandeis University where he got his PhD, just
before he moved to Queen's University. He attended many CSG meetings
and was surely acquainted with all my writings and models except
perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems III.

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an
incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that
have come out of it are flawed. If that is what he concluded,
however, that is what he should say, because PCT has been established
well enough to be at least worthy of consideration if not belief, and
should not simply be ignored. If, on the other hand, he attempted to
persuade his co-authors that PCT should be considered but was unable
to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific morality, should have
declared their reasons for not considering it important. Or so it seems to
me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT
that I see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I
hope the result will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or
perhaps some posts to the email address given as the appropriate
point of contact with the authors:

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

I logged-in to try to comment, but comments weren't allowed. Mine is not a paid login, are comments allowed for those of you with a subscription.

-- Martin

···

On 10/25/2011 10:45 PM, Bill Powers wrote:

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There you will find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies multi-joint integration for fast feedback control." The abstract concludes, "... this provides neurophysiological support for influential theories positing that voluntary movement is generated by the intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback." You might incorrectly think that among these influential theories proposing that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback (perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory and some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed equally to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University, Kingston, Ontario. The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom Bourbon's (a cofounder of the Control Systems Group) at Stephen F. Austin State University at Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the CSG from shortly after it was formed, an association which continued through the years at Brandeis University where he got his PhD, just before he moved to Queen's University. He attended many CSG meetings and was surely acquainted with all my writings and models except perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems III.

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that have come out of it are flawed. If that is what he concluded, however, that is what he should say, because PCT has been established well enough to be at least worthy of consideration if not belief, and should not simply be ignored. If, on the other hand, he attempted to persuade his co-authors that PCT should be considered but was unable to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific morality, should have declared their reasons for not considering it important. Or so it seems to me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT that I see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I hope the result will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or perhaps some posts to the email address given as the appropriate point of contact with the authors:

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2011.10.26.1010)]

Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387. There you will
find an article titled "Primary motor cortex underlies multi-joint
integration for fast feedback control." The abstract concludes, "... this
provides neurophysiological support for influential theories positing that
voluntary movement is generated by the intelligent manipulation of sensory
feedback." You might incorrectly think that among these influential theories
proposing that behavior is a process of controlling sensory feedback
(perceptions) might be found a reference to Perceptual Control Theory and
some of the modeling work that has come out of it.

The word "intelligent" would have been a tip off to me that these
people don't know what they are talking about. I would never think of
PCT as about "intelligent manipulation of sensory feedback"; it's
about control of perception. As far as "influential theories" this
looks like just a blatant self-advertisement by Mr Scott. Based on teh
reference he is only referring to one theory -- the "optimal feedback
control" theory (Todorov, E. & Jordan, M. I. Optimal feedback control
as a theory of motor coordination. Nature Neurosci. 5, 1226�1235
(2002)) and the only one influenced by it seems to be Scott himself
(Scott, S. H. Optimal feedback control and the neural basis of
volitional motor control. Nature Rev. Neurosci. 5, 532�546 (2004)).

The fact that the theory is called "optical feedback control" suggests
a computational model of control that is organized around producing
clever input manipulation schemes" rather than being organized around
the control of a hierarchy of different types of perceptual variables
(as in PCT). The "optimality" of PCT comes from the type of feedback
(perceptual variables) controlled, not from how it controls them.

But I would like to see what this "optimal feedback control" model
actually is so if someone could post the Scott (2004) or the Todorov &
Jordan (2002) papers that would be great. I have a strong hunch that
"optimal feedback control" is a computed output model disguised
(somewhat) as a control of input model. But we shall see.

You might be even more inclined to expect such a reference, still
incorrectly, when of the first two authors, said to have contributed equally
to this work, one is Isaac Kurtzer of Queens University, Kingston, Ontario.
The same Isaac Kurtzer was a student of Tom Bourbon's (a cofounder of the
Control Systems Group) at Stephen F. Austin State University at
Naucogdoches, Texas, and a member of the CSG from shortly after it was
formed, an association which continued through the years at Brandeis
University where he got his PhD, just before he moved to Queen's University.
He attended many CSG meetings and was surely acquainted with all my writings
and models except perhaps those in the latest book, Living Control Systems
III.

Isaac (like Tom) went his own way back at the end of the 1990s. Isaac
has done rather well for himself career wise, apparently. Part of his
success seems to have come from his complete desertion of PCT (to the
extent that he was ever "in it"). I think Isaac has bought completely
into what is basically the conventional "control of output" model of
the nervous system; he knows which side his career bread is buttered
on. I think you can get an idea of where he now stands from the title
of one of his referenced papers:

Kurtzer, I. L., Pruszynski, J. A.& Scott, S. H. Long-latency reflexes
of the human arm
reflect an internal model of limb dynamics. Curr. Biol. 18, 449�453 (2008).

"Internal model of limb dynamics"? Sorry, not according to PCT. I
guess he was sleeping during those parts of the meetings;-)

Of course it may be the case that Isaac has concluded that PCT is an
incorrect theory and that the models of multi-joint behavior that have come
out of it are flawed.

I think Isaac concluded that PCT was not a good career move.

If that is what he concluded, however, that is what he
should say, because PCT has been established well enough to be at least
worthy of consideration if not belief, and should not simply be ignored. If,
on the other hand, he attempted to persuade his co-authors that PCT should
be considered but was unable to do so, his coauthors at least, by scientific
morality, should have declared their reasons for not considering it
important. Or so it seems to me.

If anyone who reads this article sees the same parallels with PCT that I
see, and thinks that letters of protest are at all useful, I hope the result
will be a few letters to the editors of Nature, or perhaps some posts to the
email address given as the appropriate point of contact with the authors:

I would be happy to write a letter but only after I've managed to
understand what the hell the article shows. Maybe you could help me
out here; what is it about the experimental results described here
that has parallels to PCT, other than some of the wording (like the
stuff about manipulating sensory feedback). I really don't see why,
based on their recordings from "shoulder-like neurons in M1" they
conclude that maintaining limb position (which is I think what they
are taking about) involves manipulation of sensory input. I guess I'm
just physiologically challenged;-)

Best

Rick

···

steve.scott@queensu.ca

I have copied this post to that address.

Best to all,

Bill P.

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2011.10.26.16.54]

From Bill Powers to all CSGers and friends.

Have a look at Nature for 20 Oct 2011, Volume 478, page 387.

My copy arrived this afternoon. I haven't fully read the paper yet, but I wonder whether the data could be used to quantify any aspects of the Little Man demo. A comment that showed that the neurons in question might be represented by some elements of the Little Man circuit, and that the waveforms shown have similar characteristics to those of the waveforms of some values in the LM circuitry, would be rather more useful than one that simply says "The authors should be aware of PCT....".

Is that a feasible thing to try?

Martin

···

On 2011/10/26 12:45 AM, Bill Powers wrote:

(gavin Ritz 2011.10.27.1041NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.10.26.1010)]

I would be happy to write a letter but only after I’ve
managed to

understand what the hell the article shows. Maybe you
could help me

out here; what is it about the experimental results
described here

that has parallels to PCT, other than some of the
wording (like the

stuff about manipulating sensory feedback). I really
don’t see why,

based on their recordings from “shoulder-like
neurons in M1” they

conclude that maintaining limb position (which is I think
what they

are taking about) involves manipulation of sensory
input. I guess I’m

just physiologically challenged;-)

I’m really challenged on this,
I don’t see a lot of similarities.

Maybe someone can point
them out?

Regards

Gavin

···