An Open letter to Bill and Rick

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From [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.08.0016) ]

In the last few weeks many things seem to be coming together for me. Clearer then ever before in my life. I will not go into what I attribute this new found “enlightenment” to but I would like to share some of the “results”. I address this to Bill and Rick specifically because of the contribution they have made to PCT. They alone of course are not the only ones. Many others have, and currently are, doing yeoman’s work. But nobody has “worn” the theoretical/Researcher hat that these guys have over the years. Tom Bourbon is another who comes to mind but he is not currently on the net. Maybe one day he will rejoin the family. I hope so. He will always be a member. Whether he ever chooses to become “active” again only he can answer.

This last little bit of exchange with Rick and Rick’s reply to Bill sort of solidified these feelings I have. I realized that inside myself was a part of Rick Marken. The part that is both extremely passionate, intense, and enthusiastic about things he believes in. Do not confuse this as I did, with either hubris, bravado, or conceit. ( well, maybe sometimes LOL ) It is none of those.( most of the time ) It is simply an intense, passionate belief in PCT theory. I share his enthusiasm, but not his intensity for the theory. My intensity and passion is directed at the second hat each of these guys has been wearing. That of PCT Researcher. Do not confuse the two. Rick sometimes has. Bill has done a remarkable job of maintaining some separation.

Plain and simple I very much want to empirically test the HPCT model. I want to provide descriptions of everyday phenomena in PCT talk and back it up with empirical evidence. Right now we are basically at the everything is made up of molecules level. One reason I used the Physics -> Chemistry analogy was for this very reason. I very much want to be able to contribute to the empirical validation of the model. I believe like Rick, that Bill has done an amazing job. Rick is one heck of a modeler. I hope to be one heck of a researcher. I will address some phenomena in a post tomorrow. Maybe this can be a start to the list Rick mentioned in his post.

It has not been easy over the last 13 years for either of them. “Learning” PCT is deceptively difficult. Like Physics and Chess. The “commercialization” ( whatever that might mean to you ) of PCT will not happen in our lifetimes. Any “commercialization” would be largely untested claims about a theory that has not been sufficiently tested empirically. To say something is based on PCT is like saying my shirt is made of molecules. Honest but meaningless. That translates into anyone who purports to have an “applied” PCT solution to a problem is at a minimum being intellectually dishonest and at worst a con artist. ( in implying that a “product” imbued with PCT is some how superior to one without ) I am not suggesting that this would necessarily be done intentionally. But what does it mean to be “based on PCT”? Glasser being a prime example of probably being a bit of both, even though his method is very useful. An example, of what I am talking about, is the basis for Glasser’s model. The 5 intrinsic needs ( or however many there are ) of a human. It is not PCT and he certainly has no empirical evidence to back up his claim that there are in fact 5 and not 4 or 20 intrinsic needs. Every current psychological theory and method can in fact be explained at least in part, by PCT. The trick comes in knowing what aspects are and are not part of the model and trying to figure out if we can, empirically, to test and validate what is.

Back to Bill and Rick. I just want you both to know that I really appreciate the effort and love you guys have for your work. We might butt heads every once in a while but it will never be because of a lack of respect for what you have both contributed to our knowledge of PCT.

Marc

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[From Rick Marken (2003.05.08.0920)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.08.0016) -

I realized that inside myself was a part of Rick Marken.

So that's where it went!

[The part] is simply an intense, passionate belief in PCT theory.

Shew. Then it's not part of me. What I have is an intense, passionate
_scientific interest_ in PCT. The only thing I _believe in_ is love;-)

My intensity and passion is directed at the second hat each of these guys has
been wearing. That of PCT Researcher. Do not confuse the two. Rick sometimes
has.

Really? Could you show me where I've done that. That would be a big mistake.

Plain and simple I very much want to empirically test the HPCT model.

That would be nice. We could always use one more, increasing the ranks of
empirical testers by 25 to 50% (depending on how you count empirical testers).

Rick is one heck of a modeler. I hope to be one heck of a researcher.

Actually, I think I'm one heck of a researcher and that I just barely survive as a
modeler.

To say [an application] is based on PCT is like saying my shirt is made of
molecules. Honest but meaningless.

I don't think this is true at all. I think it's perfectly possible to develop
worthwhile applications based on PCT.

That translates into anyone who purports to have an "applied" PCT solution to a
problem is at a minimum being intellectually dishonest and at worst a con
artist.

I think this is very unfair. I think it's perfectly possible to have an applied
PCT solution. I think it's perfectly possible for anyone who understands the PCT
model and how it is applied to behavior to evaluate whether any application that
purports to be based on PCT is, in fact, correctly derived from PCT.

Back to Bill and Rick. I just want you both to know that I really appreciate the
effort and love you guys have for your work. We might butt heads every once in a
while but it will never be because of a lack of respect for what you have both
contributed to our knowledge of PCT.

Thanks. That's very sweet of you.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.08.0945 MDT)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.08.0016)--

>Plain and simple I very much want to empirically test the HPCT model. I
want to provide >descriptions of everyday phenomena in PCT talk and back it
up with empirical evidence.

This is what PCT modeling has been about since the beginning. PCT research
is more than just thinking up after-the-fact descriptions of ordinary
behavior using PCT language. Anybody can do that -- just substitute what
you think is the nearest technical-sounding word from PCT for an
ordinary-language term, and there you are. Don't say "I'm bothered about
that" -- say "I have an error signal about that." Don't say "I'd like to
finish this book before we go," say "I have a reference signal for
finishing this book." Don't say "I'd like to know what you think of the
paper I just wrote," say "How about some feedback on my paper?" People love
trendy, insider's language, especially when all you have to do is remember
one simple word-association (like a Little Orphan Annie substitution code).
You don't even have to learn anything new, because you can keep the meaning
you had for the ordinary-language term and just transfer it to the
technical-sounding term. Then you sound like you're talking technically,
but you're really talking (and thinking) the way you always have. That's
why it's so easy.

In PCT modeling, the objective is to observe a natural or nearly-natural
behavior closely enough to be able to measure it. Then you try to set up a
control-system model to reproduce various parts of the observed situation,
and set it in motion to see if it will, out of its own properties, produce
simulated behavior that is very close to the observed behavior.

Tracking experiments, or more generally experiments that use a simple
action to affect a perceptual variable that's easy to display on a computer
screen, show how this process works. Demo 1 is actually a series of tests
of the hypothesis that a particular example of behavior is in fact a
control process. Most of the examples require the human participant to
maintain some condition on the screen, and measure the behavior of the
manipulated objects as well as the actions by which they are manipulated.
If a simple control-system model is sufficient, in each case we should see
a general pattern (shown as a data plot for the actual test run) and
certain quantitative relationships between variables (filled in from the
data as correlation numbers that appear in the text description on the
screen after the run). Each experiment is actually a 30-second experiment
with the participant free to move the stick or mouse in any way whatsoever.

The plot shows how an invisible disturbance varied, and how the control
handle position varied, with the numerical state of the controlled variable
also plotted. In every case, we see the handle position changing equally
and oppositely to the maqnitude of the disturbance, and the controlled
variable remaining roughly constant (as instructed). I would guess that I
have looked over the shoulders of many hundreds of people doing thousands
of runs in Demo1, and I have yet to see any example where the plot did not
show this form (if the person kept controlling until the end of the
30-second run). This ought to be more impressive than it is, because there
is absolutely nothing to constrain this person to move the control handle
in any particular way. Yet they all -- _all_ -- move it as the control
model quantitatively predicts that they will move it.

The numerical results filled into the text are (1) the correlation between
the controlled variable and the handle positions, and (2) the correlation
between the disturbing variable and the handle positions. These are
obtained from the experimental; data just acquired during each
demonstration. The text surrounding the correlation numbers does not
change, which shows to those who notice how confident we are that the
prediction will be verified. The former correlation is low (usually below
0.3), and the latter is high (usually above 0.95). The control model
predicts that these correlations will be high and low as observed. This is
astonishing to a conventional scientist when he first understands what
these results are saying. An old psychology professor of mine shouted at me
and walked angrily out of the room when I described these results to him
and drew the relationships on the blackboard, He understood them, all
right, but accused me of trying to make a fool of him. I did NOT say that
he didn't need any help. The controlled variable that is kept nearly
constant by the actions of the person shows only a very small correlation
with those actions. At the same time, a variable that is invisible to the
participant, the disturbance, shows a ridiculously high correlation with
the actions of the person. Under conventional cause-effect concepts, that
is impossible.

To do an experiment of this kind, you must first observe natural behavior
in the experimental situation very closely, closely enough that you can get
some numerical or at least quantitative measures of the variables involved.
Then you must construct a specific control-system model in which the same
variables are included, as well as any hidden variables and relationships
that are being hypothesized. Disturbances must be defined so they can be
applied in the same way to the real behavior and to the simulated behavior
of the model.

Testing the model then involves three main stages. First, using data from
one experiment with the real system, you adjust the parameters of the model
for best fit. The parameters are things like masses and inertias of
physical moving parts, gains and bandwidths of amplifiers, sensor and
actuator characteristics. Often you can get away with simple
approximations. Then, using a completely new pattern of disturbances, you
run the model and record its behavior. This amounts to a prediction of the
behavior of the real system under new conditions. The final step is to use
the same new pattern of disturbances with the real system and record its
behavior for comparison with the record of the model's behavior. The amount
of difference between the model's behavior (now amounting to a prediction)
and the real behavior is a measure of the remaining discrepancy between the
model and tbe real system.

That's the basic procedure for model-based analysis of behavior. There are,
of course, varying degrees of precision with which we can carry it out,
depending on how closely we can measure the aspects of the real system that
are relevant. The conclusions have a corresponding degree of certainty,
ranging from pretty sloppy to pretty good. It's not easy to do good
experiments with higher orders of behavior, in part because the only
available definitions and descriptions are based on ordinary language and
common sense, both of which can steer us pretty far off base.

The basic pattern in more detail is:

1. Observe the behavior of the real system that is of interest.

2. Measure or otherwise record the states of the relevant variables.

3. Construct a specific control-system model in terms of the same variables.

4. Subject the model (in simulation) and the real system to the same
environmental disturbances.

5. Adjust details of the model to get the best fit of model behavior to the
real behavior.

6. Alter the experimental conditions, an easy way being to alter the
disturbance or add new ones.Leaving the model parameters at the same value
found in step 5, repeat the run of the simulation with the model.

7. Run an experiment with the real system under the new conditions, and
compare the model's behavior (now a prediction of the real behavior) with
that of the real system.

By repeating this 7-step pattern, interspersed with periods of evaluation
and revision of the model, one can eventually arrive at a model that fits
the behavior under a wide range of circumstances without any change in its
characteristics..

You will find on careful examination that all of Rick's published models
follow this pattern, although some of the steps are carried out offstage,
as it were. Even my Little Man follows it, though you don't see anything
but the model's behavior. All during the development of the little man, I
was watching how I move my arms, and the Little Man models both contain
provisions for adjusting model parameters to get the best fit between model
and observation. What I was lacking there, of course, was the VERY
expensive equipment for accurately measuring how real arms move, instead of
just estimating the behavior. The physical parameters of the arm like
moment of inertia were calculated from measurements of the dimensions of my
own arm and application of some basic physical laws. Limits of muscle
strength were estimated from seeing how much weight I could support at
arm's length. And so on -- measure what you can, calculate what you can,
and make educated guesses about the rest.

When you get into experimental explorations of the control system model, I
strongly recommend sticking to this pattern at least as a general outline.
Remember that the point is not just to _explain_ an observed pattern of
behavior after it has happened, but far more important, to _predict_
behavior when conditions are changed. Explanations after the fact are
cheap. Predictions under changed conditions put a theory to a real grown-up
test.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.09.0950)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.09.0842)

> Rick Marken (2003.05.08.0920)--

> I think it's perfectly possible to develop worthwhile
> applications based on PCT.

Really?

Yes.

Do you think simply because your method either shows some signs of
feedback or control that it is PCT based?

Not at all. I mean that I think it is possible to derive strategies to achieve
one's policy goals based on an understanding of human behavior derived from PCT.
For example, I think one can derive strategies for dealing with kids that will
achieve the policy goal of having a comfortable teaching environment. I believe
that the aspect of PCT that applies to this situation is conflict theory.

Bruce Gregory just posted a nice, general strategy for improved teaching (the
policy goal) that is based on the idea that skill involves learning which
perceptual variables to control and in what states to control them. I think Bruce
just made a great comment that communicates very well the kind of applied
knowledge that can come from PCT:

"Without PCT I never would have intuited that the critical step is to know what to
observe and not what to do". -- Bruce Gregory (2002.0509.1223)

If we ever get the PCT-based model of the economy working I think it will have
very interesting implications for how best to achieve whatever people agree to be
their economic goals.

If you "know" the model, you will see "PCT" everywhere.

Of course. But that's not what I mean by "applying" PCT. I mean using predictions
of the model as the basis for developing strategies for achieving policy goals. I
think my prescribing error model provides a good illustration of what I mean. That
model, though very general and conceptual, strongly suggests that certain
approaches to error reduction (the policy goal), such as improving system design,
will have very little benefit (in terms of error reduction) when error rate is
already very low. I think Fred Nickols came to this same conclusion based on
intuition but I bet that his intuition was somewhat informed by his understanding
of control theory.

It seems to me that you respond to a post line by line.

I do.

I think that might be self-defeating. The tone and position of that post was not
criticism.

I didn't think it was. I don't post to ward of criticism. I post to try to clarify
points.

I'm glad ( I'm being sarcastic here ) you are only passionate about your
"love". If you would have stopped and not been so defensive you would have
realized it was intended as a complement.

I wasn't being defensive. I just wanted to explain that I don't "believe in" PCT
in the way one believes in, say, god. I think PCT is an exciting and powerful
approach to understanding human behavior. But I try to approach it with
skepticism. If you believe in something too hard there's a tendency to see only
confirmation of that belief. I don't think that's a good attitude for a researcher
to have.

Sorry if I either misrepresented you or offended you in any way. I won't
make this mistake again.

I don't get particularly offended. And I don't think you (or anyone) can avoid
that "mistake" because it's often impossible to know what will offend or insult
someone. Don't worry about it.

I only said I was "insulted" because I have done quite a lot of research on PCT so
I was a little insulted by your implying that no one had done any research on PCT.
I'm thrilled that you are going to start doing research on PCT but, heck, I've
been doing it for over 20 years (my first research paper was published in 1981).
I'm sure that you didn''t intend to insult me -- I might have misunderstood -- and
I mad at you about it at all. I was just being a bit of a squeaky wheel.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.09.0842) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.08.0920)]

> To say [an application] is based on PCT is like saying my shirt is made

of

> molecules. Honest but meaningless.

I don't think this is true at all. I think it's perfectly possible to

develop

worthwhile applications based on PCT.

Really?. Do you think simply because your method either shows some signs of
feedback or control that it is PCT based? Did Bill "invent" or discover
either of these 2 concepts? In my mind what is PCT'ish is the integration of
the creation of perceptions, the maintenance of the same in the face of
disturbances and the "effect" ( i.e. error ) it has on everything else. Now,
knowing we what we do not know. Do you still believe anyone at this time
could propose a "PCT" method? I don't think so. If you "know" the model, you
will see "PCT" everywhere. If you want to see a method that is PCT'ish,
check out Argryis' *Action Science*. You won't but it's all there.

It seems to me that you respond to a post line by line. I think that might
be self-defeating. The tone and position of that post was not criticism. The
details of what was said was far less important to me then the overall
intent and message of the post. I thought we established or at least began
to establish a pattern of inquiry when in doubt. Your beliefs about your
inferences will continue not to serve you well.

I'm glad ( I'm being sarcastic here ) you are only passionate about your
"love". If you would have stopped and not been so defensive you would have
realized it was intended as a complement. In fact the entire post was
intended that way. I found the body of your post and responses self- serving
and offensive. You could have acknowledged my intent instead of "correcting"
me. Do you really believe your distinction between your "science" and
"love" was noteworthy? , hardly, as well as your correction about your
modeling/researching.

Sorry if I either misrepresented you or offended you in any way. I won't
make this mistake again.

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.09.0916) ]

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.08.0945 MDT)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.08.0016)--

>Plain and simple I very much want to empirically test the HPCT model. I
want to provide >descriptions of everyday phenomena in PCT talk and back

it

up with empirical evidence.

This is what PCT modeling has been about since the beginning. PCT

research....

Yes, and something I hope to do much of. Thank you for an absolutely
terrific post. One I found most instructive and helpful.

Beautiful.

Marc