Hi Fred,
what a nice surprise...Tahnks for your answers
[Fred Nickols] I don't. I think the fielder/catcher is predicting whether
or not he can intercept the ball. He's not focused on the physical landing
point but, rather, the relative change in position between himself and the
ball.
Fred Nickols] Close but not quite. I don't think the catcher is estimating
the catching point. He's keeping track of how well he's reducing the
distance between himself and the ball, not where the ball will likely come
down.
[Fred Nickols] I don't. I think the fielder/catcher is predicting whether
or not he can intercept the ball. He's not focused on the physical landing
point but, rather, the relative change in position between himself and the
ball.
The initial trajectory
tells me something too; namely, the general direction, movement and speed.
Depending on what that is, I take off running, all the while keeping an eye
on the ball. The relative movement between me (one the run) and the ball
(on the fly) tell me if I'm likely to intercept it or not. If so, I keep
doing what I'm doing. If not, I speed up, change course, slow down or
whatever it takes to maintain my sense that I am likely to intercept the
ball. I do not estimate where it will land; I estimate or take stock of the
likelihood that I can/will intercept it.
HB:
Nice descriptions of the baseball game. Could you now explain everything
what you wrote with GAP_ACT model orconcept of whatever... or PCT model
Best,
Boris
···
----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Nickols" <fred@NICKOLS.US>
To: <CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Analyzing feedback paths
[From Fred Nickols (2012.11.20.0733 AZ)]
My comments are embedded below. Material to which I am not responding has
been snipped.-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of boris_upc
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 7:25 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Analyzing feedback pathsO.K. I think that we need unique theory of ball-catching (human behavior)
[Fred Nickols] I think we have a theory of ball-catching, as expressed in
Rick Marken's model."OLD" THEORY :
BP :2. I have satisfied myself by watching baseball on television that
> catchers (more properly, "fielders") who try to catch balls in the way
> the old theory assumes usually fail to catch it. Sometimes they
> succeed, and such successes are often remembered exactly because they
are so rare.[Fred Nickols] Actually, I don't think Bill can say what he wrote above.
As he likes to point out, we can't tell what someone is up to by simply
observing their behavior. He might "guess" that some fielders are trying to
estimate where the ball will come down but I don't think he can really tell
that's what they're trying to do.HB:
Both theories (if I understand right) explain special cases or maybe I cansay
special "playing situations". And as you say they are experienced (on TV),
I
can probably conclude that both are right, as they correctly predict or
describe behavior of "real" players in "real" situation.
I suppose that only the theory which describes or predicts behavior in the
way that matches the "reality" is for me right theory.In 1.case you say (if I understand right) that ball (*ffordance) is
"directing"
behavior of the catcher (fielder), because the catcher (fielder) is
"looking" at
the ball all the time (with some constant or slowly changing
angle) and fielder "miraculously" find himself "exactly where the ballcomes
down or close enough to catch it". I somehow missed PCT explanation of
this
"situation".
[Fred Nickols] Again, I think that's Rick's model.
I think that in both cases catcher (fielder) is estimating the
"catching-point" as
the goal of every behavior of the fielder in any case is to "catch the
ball".
[Fred Nickols] I'm not a good ball player but I have played some and in the
outfield. The first thing to which I recall responding is the crack of the
bat hitting the ball. The sound tells me something. The initial trajectory
tells me something too; namely, the general direction, movement and speed.
Depending on what that is, I take off running, all the while keeping an eye
on the ball. The relative movement between me (one the run) and the ball
(on the fly) tell me if I'm likely to intercept it or not. If so, I keep
doing what I'm doing. If not, I speed up, change course, slow down or
whatever it takes to maintain my sense that I am likely to intercept the
ball. I do not estimate where it will land; I estimate or take stock of the
likelihood that I can/will intercept it.We don't need two theories.
[Fred Nickols]
I don't think Bill was advancing two theories but I'll leave that to him.I'll try with Fred's GAP-ACT concept to make a unigue concept (model),
which
would be able to explain every behavior of the catchers (fielders). I'll
try in
this way :
INSIDE ORGANISM
G = goal (wanted perception, catching the ball or the ball in the glove ofthe
catcher) A = action (internal environment. I suppose that Fred ment, if I
see
right, nervous-muscles connection, driven by "error" in comparator) P =
perception (I suppose perception of the ball)OUTSIDE ORGANISM
A = action (behavior, outer expression of the muscles activity in outer
environment that can be observed) C = conditions (probably Fred meant
variables in environment that affect the ball - disturbances - and other
environmental variables) T = target (I suppose he meant controlledvariable
in outer environment, the
ball)[Fred Nickols] Fred meant "ball in glove" or, in shorthand, "caught"
So my opppinion is that the catcher (fielder) is perceiving the flight of
the
ball, and in imagination starts to estimate the place where the ball will
fall.
[Fred Nickols] I don't. I think the fielder/catcher is predicting whether
or not he can intercept the ball. He's not focused on the physical landing
point but, rather, the relative change in position between himself and the
ball.There are probably differences in how fast "players" estimates the
"catching
point".
When the goal is set (wanted perception of the ball), the difference
between goal and actual flight of the ball is perceived, so with actionthe
fielder starts to reduce the difference between actual perception of the
flying ball and reference - estimated catching point in imagination.[Fred Nickols] Close but not quite. I don't think the catcher is estimating
the catching point. He's keeping track of how well he's reducing the
distance between himself and the ball, not where the ball will likely come
down.If in your 1. case, "looking at the ball" (for ex. it's "angular
velocity") is the
reference of the fielder, from what will perception be subtracted ?
So as I see it, every behavior by Fred model (concept) can be explained,
so
the theory should be working for all goal-directed behaviors of human.
Can you use the same Freds' concept to explain your vision what is
happening. You can make also mathematical description of what is
happening.
I'm really interested to see it.[Fred Nickols] Boris: I'm glad you like my GAP-ACT model but I don't think
it's quite fair to ask Bill to explain anything in terms of it. Besides,
it's not "my" concept; it's simply a view based on PCT.