Anarchy

[From Rick Marken (990204.1530)]

Mike Acree (990204.1440 PST) --

Is there any way you can make a quantitative connection
between your ideas about anarchy and PCT? Do you have any
data and/or models that support or illustrate your ideas?
The private fire department story isn't really data; it's a
story; I need numbers. Do you have any measures of possible
controlled variables, disturbances to those variables, etc.
that might help me see what you are talking about? Perhaps
you could build a simulation of an anarchistic society using
S-R and then control systems as elements. I suppose that you
might predict that such a society would not work with S-R
systems as elements but it would work with control systems as elements.
Or perhaps you could build a simulation of a
governmental society and show how it can't possibly work
with control systems as elements.

Something more than just words would help me understand
your point of view, I think.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (990204.1540)]

Mike Acree (990204.1440 PST)--

... if you (or anyone else) should in the future be able to
show, concretely and specifically, how government is
compatible with PCT, I shall remain very much interested.

Martin Taylor (990204 17:47) --

Vacuous or not, here's my take:

Control systems exist in an environment in which actions
influence perceptions...

Bottom line, we are dealing with the reliability of the
environmental feedback functions that involve other people,
and the effect of that reliability on the ability of living
control systems to build reliable hierarchies and reliable
social structures. It has nothing to do with philosophy.

I hope that's not too vacuous.

It's not vacuous; it's brilliant. Your analysis is clearly
based on all the most important aspects of the PCT model
(which is more than I can say for anything I have heard in
favor of the notion that PCT supports anarchy). I can
only hope that any future arguments in support of the
notion that PCT supports anarchy are up to the lucid and
scientifically rigorous standard you have set here.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Mike Acree (990209.1651 PST)]

Rick Marken (990204.1530)--

Is there any way you can make a quantitative connection
between your ideas about anarchy and PCT? Do you have any
data and/or models that support or illustrate your ideas?
The private fire department story isn't really data; it's a
story; I need numbers. Do you have any measures of possible
controlled variables, disturbances to those variables, etc.
that might help me see what you are talking about? Perhaps
you could build a simulation of an anarchistic society using
S-R and then control systems as elements. I suppose that you
might predict that such a society would not work with S-R
systems as elements but it would work with control systems as

elements.

Or perhaps you could build a simulation of a
governmental society and show how it can't possibly work
with control systems as elements.

Something more than just words would help me understand
your point of view, I think.

The short answer is no.

The longer answer is that I don't think anyone else can, either--and I
would be skeptical of their claims if they tried. Simulation of social
phenomena can be useful when the relevant variables are sharply
delimited--traffic jams, for example. For a political and economic
system, you're talking about putting the whole world in your computer.
It's well known that a simulation done on data from a century ago would
predict that by 1950 New York City would be buried under 600 feet of
horse manure.

Beyond that, I see no need for a simulation of a governmental society
when we've got hundreds of them all around us. There are, unfortunately
for science, no anarchistic industrial societies, but we can still learn
something from a comparative analysis of how well existing governments
work.

Your demand for numbers, curiously, comes straight from the positivist
philosophy of science whose expression in psychology was behaviorism.
It may be possible to accept one and reject the other, but I always
found both unappealing and implausible for the same reasons. As a
statistician, I'm no stranger to numbers, but there's very little
quantitative research in psychology that I would call science. By the
same token, I don't think all the nonnumerical work in linguistics,
botany, anthropology, or geology is necessarily unscientific.

If words don't speak to you, I can only point, much as you pointed Kenny
to the museum of natural history: go look at the Rural/Metro fire
department, or at medieval Iceland, if you think these things are
impossible. You have dismissed all these as "just stories"; but I don't
understand how you can count the contents of the museum of natural
history as data--your term (990204.0900)--when they are no more
numerical than a fire department or a society. And if my real-life
examples are "just stories," what does that make a made-up (simulated)
example?

Mike

[From Mike Acree (990209.1652 PST)]

Tracy Harms (19990207.2340)--

In brief, I see Bill's use of the term "rule of law" as making no
distinction between using legislation (etc.) primarily to establish

limits

that prohibit actions, and using legislation to direct actions. There

is a

great difference, in my view, between using "law" as a bludgeon to

compel

actions and shape choices into certain directions, and using law in

the

constrained sense which the phrase "rule of law" traditionally meant.

I accept your distinction as meaningful and important, even though I
would not have understood "rule of law" in your restricted sense. The
implication of your distinction, however, is that Bill's criticism of
the rule of law applies to the sense of law as directing actions but not
to law as prohibiting actions. If so, I think that remains to be
demonstrated, and I don't (yet) see the basis in PCT for doing that. I
would be comfortable with such a government, but Bill gave theoretical
reasons, supported by historical experience, for expecting it not to
last very long.

Mike

[From Mike Acree (990209.1650 PST)]

Martin Taylor (990204.1747)--

Thanks, Martin. No, I didn't experience your post as vacuous; that was
a complaint about a couple of previous unelaborated statements defining
government as a bunch of control systems working together--which
wouldn't distinguish government from an S-M club.

I was bringing to your attention that
it was once the norm to have private fire departments, at least in the
British Empire, of which North America was a part. It is no longer the
norm, for the good reason that if a house was insured by one fire
department, and another showed up, it would often not put out the

fire,

or if a fire being put out by the contracted fire department spread to
the next door house, which was contracted to a different department,

the

second house was likely to burn down. People eventually decided that

this

was unacceptable, and organized public fire departments paid for out

of

taxes.

One can certainly imagine the scenario of competing fire departments
that you describe; one would also expect that arrangement to be
short-lived. I don't know any reason why the problem couldn't have been
solved by negotiation among the fire departments--perhaps all companies
respond to a given (big) fire, with reimbursements between companies
handled later, or whatever. I also don't know the historical reason why
these areas would have opted for government fire departments instead,
but that was the arrangement that these countries were instituting with
respect to many other services (e.g., police, education). For all those
services provision by government has come to seem necessary and
unavoidable, as we've lost sight of paths not taken.

This is one area, however, in which we may have learned from history.
The modern communications industry has required coordination and
cooperation between businesses on a massive scale, lest they duplicate
the debacle of private fire departments you described; but in this case
I think many people were aware that if they didn't act quickly among
themselves to develop solutions, the government would step in and impose
its own. Probably everyone on the Net knows more of the details here
than I do, but my sense is that these privately initiated efforts have
worked and are still working across a broad range of problems.

But there's nothing that stops private fire companies from being
instituted, just as the security system in my house is backed up by a
private security response system in addition to the public police. It

is

just not cost-effective to have non-monopoly fire services in a area,

and

if you are going to have a monopoly, it's as well to have it either

owned

or regulated by some group whose responsibility is to the people

served

rather than to the profits of the owner(s). When "the owners are us",
both interests are served at the same time.

Typically government protection of a monopoly makes it _harder_ to
change providers if the present one is unsatisfactory. Not long ago an
Oklahoma couple was arrested for hiring someone to deliver payroll
checks to their employees because the government mail was so slow. When
you found government police protection inadequate, you didn't have the
option of simply switching providers, but had to pay twice, for an
_additional_ security system. Had the police been private, they would
have gotten the message--right in the wallet--from your switching
providers that their service was lacking. The government police can
still _see_ all the additional security services that residences and
banks and other businesses are hiring, but the signal is left as a
dangling wire: it doesn't connect back to any output system. As I've
pointed out before, the jobs of police or other bureaucrats are
connected only very remotely to the satisfaction of their supposed
customers. If you compare bureaucratic with market mechanisms, I think
you'll find in each case of the former that the feedback function has
been disconnected, with corresponding consequences for control. It's
interesting that precisely those systems set up to control others are
not organized as control systems themselves (with respect to what they
were supposed to be controlling), whereas those that aren't are.

The rhetoric, familiar from our high-school civics class, about
regulation by some group representing the public interest may sound
great; but public choice theory explains what we've been seeing for some
time: that it doesn't work that way in practice. The devastation of
Western rangelands and forests, to take just one example, has occurred
on land owned by the federal government and managed by the Forest
Service or the BLM. Private property owners, whether ranchers or lumber
companies, are not destroying the land on which their own livelihood
depends. The bureaucrats supposedly looking out for the public interest
haven't intentionally instituted destructve policies, so far as I know,
but we need to look at what else they are controlling for. Here's a
simple, generic example: Problems are what guarantee intact or
expanding agency budgets. If nothing is going wrong, your budget gets
cut. Usually you don't have to hunt for problems, but it is
nevertheless good practice to make things sound worse than they
are--something I see here at the Center for AIDS Prevention Studies, for
example, where a finding of a 2% HIV prevalence rate in some country is
written up as a crisis requiring an immediate, massive, expensive
intervention (the evaluation of which happens to be our business).

In an anarchy, one may be able to predict reasonably reliably the

actions

of someone with whom you have contracted, in respect of actions about
which you have contracted. Under a rule of law, this level of
predictability becomes available for a wide range of actions. It

becomes

easier for people to develop perceptual control hierarchies that work
reasonably reliably than it would be in an anarchy. It allows for the
development of mutual support structures that are _not_ based on
contracts, but on the statistically reliable beneficial effects of
side-effect influences. These can and will occur even in an anarchy,

but

it's easier when the environmental feedback systems are stable.

Bottom line, we are dealing with the reliability of the environmental
feedback functions that involve other people, and the effect of that
reliability on the ability of living control systems to build
reliable hierarchies and reliable social structures. It has nothing
to do with philosophy.

Your point about stability is the usual argument in favor of rule of law
(as opposed to "rule of men"). Stability--the lack of it, that
is--could be seen as the major reason for lack of development in Third
World countries. Property claims, in particular, often have a legally
vague status; and, with no assurance that someone can't come along to
kick you off your land at any moment, people are reluctant to invest
very much in buildings or agricultural improvements. These are all
countries with strong governments, of course.

Instability, or unreliability, has become a serious problem in our own
society. The success of a business depends on long-range planning, but
new laws can be passed that put you out of business without warning.
(Proceeds from the new cigarette tax are going to tobacco farmers to
compensate them for their loss, but those affected usually aren't so
lucky.) Legislation nowadays--the Americans with Disabilities Act is
the best example--is now written deliberately to be vague, with the
meaning to be worked out in case law. The actual purpose is of course
to guaranteed a windfall for lawyers, but in the meantime it creates a
nightmare for employers, who have no way of knowing how to design
personnel policies that will be found legal.

It may be worth noting that there is countervailing consideration to
stability. For living control systems, stasis is death. If the
question of anarchy vs. government is going to turn on the issue of
stability, we will have to consider more specifically the features that
need to be stable and those that need to be dynamic, and how these
features might best be realized. For economic development and
prosperity, I think one of the most important things to be able to rely
on is freedom from third-party interference in contracts. For this kind
of stability, anarcho-capitalism wins hands-down over government. I'm
not sure what you're thinking of with the statistically reliable side
effects that are more likely under government than under anarchy, but
I'm interested in hearing. Otherwise, it looks to me as though the
spontaneous order of the market, based on negotiation and contract, is
much more likely to provide the needed mechanisms both for stability and
for a dynamic balancing of stability with flexibility.

To my mind the most interesting aspect of your argument, however, is
that it amounts to a secular version of the Argument from Design: If
there is organization, there must be an organizer--someone or some
agency in charge, constantly intervening to keep things in proper
running order, breaking up the monopolies of IBM and Microsoft,
enforcing the monopolies of the post office and the fire department, and
so on. The spontaneous order that I believe Hayek discerned in
biological systems as well as in market economies is the focus of the
new science of complexity, cutting across many disciplines; what is
interesting is the horizontal d�calage between its application to all
sorts of biological and social phenomena on the one hand, and to
political organization on the other, where centralized, top-down control
is still unquestioned.

Mike

[From Rick Marken (990209.2120)]

Mike Acree (990209.1651 PST) --

Welcome back to netland!

I see no need for a simulation of a governmental society when
we've got hundreds of them all around us... If words don't
speak to you, I can only point, much as you pointed Kenny to
the museum of natural history: go look at the Rural/Metro
fire department, or at medieval Iceland, if you think these
things are impossible.

What would I be looking for when I looked at the Rural/Metro fire
department or at medieval Iceland? If I am looking at these as
examples of anarchic societies, what would I look for to see that
these are, indeed, examples of anarchy? Please explain this in
PCT terms. That is, please tell me what variables are or are
not controlled in anarchic societies? What variables are or
are not controlled in governmental societies? How do we know
whether or not these variables are, indeed, controlled? Also,
what makes an anarchic society better than a governmental society?
And if an anarchic society is better than a governmental society,
why are there so few (if any) anarchic societies around now? Why
would societies (like medieval Iceland) go from a nice, anarchic
(lower ambient error?) situation to a lousy, governmental (high
ambient error) situation? Again, please answer in terms of PCT.

Thanks

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Mike Acree (990210.0920 PST)]

Rick Marken (990209.2120)--

Welcome back to netland!

Thanks!

I see no need for a simulation of a governmental society when
we've got hundreds of them all around us... If words don't
speak to you, I can only point, much as you pointed Kenny to
the museum of natural history: go look at the Rural/Metro
fire department, or at medieval Iceland, if you think these
things are impossible.

What would I be looking for when I looked at the Rural/Metro fire
department or at medieval Iceland? If I am looking at these as
examples of anarchic societies, what would I look for to see that
these are, indeed, examples of anarchy? Please explain this in
PCT terms. That is, please tell me what variables are or are
not controlled in anarchic societies? What variables are or
are not controlled in governmental societies? How do we know
whether or not these variables are, indeed, controlled?

Actually, I think a limited amount can be accomplished just by pointing.
When Kenny looks at the contents of the museum of natural history, he
presumably has one explanation for them while you have another. In the
present case, I understood your claim (or those of some others on the
Net) to be that private fire departments and anarchic societies didn't
work and therefore couldn't exist. Such a simple claim of nonexistence
can indeed be resolved by pointing, so long as you agree that what you
are looking at is a private fire department or an anarchic society. In
the former case I wouldn't see much ground for dispute that Rural/Metro
was indeed private, and that it had been in business for about 25 years
(I think). Historical data are often subject to more interpretation,
though in this case I don't think there's much disagreement about the
actual arrangements. But my assumption may be naive: it is possible
that your concept of government is idiosyncratic enough that you would
see government where others don't. In that case simple pointing would
fail, and attention would shift to the justification for your
definition.

Also,
what makes an anarchic society better than a governmental society?

This is what got us started: the idea that negotiation and contract
(anarchy) work better for conflict resolution than punishment-based rule
of law (government). The idea wasn't original with me :-); for the
justification of it I would point you to Chapter 17.

And if an anarchic society is better than a governmental society,
why are there so few (if any) anarchic societies around now?

That's an extremely interesting question, to which I can offer only a
few thoughts off the top of my head. My sense is that there are still
some small societies (e.g., the Yequana Indians of Venezuela) which
could be described as anarchistic, and there were presumably many more
of those at one time. The modern concept of government arose in larger
societies/territories which had at some point been consolidated by a
conqueror/ruler, and the bureaucratic state (whether democratic or not)
was formulated as an alternative to absolute monarchy. The Founding
Fathers of this country were pretty radical for their time (and I'm sure
would be perceived as dangerously anarchistic today--think of starting a
war over a tax on tea or whiskey, or just of Richard Henry Lee's
insistence that all children should be trained in the use of guns), so
it's perhaps not too surprising that they didn't carry the limitation of
government any further. The Articles of Confederation set up a
government that was about as minimal as possible; and even when
advocates of stronger government prevailed in replacing it with the
Constitution, I think it was widely expected that provisions like the
Ninth and Tenth Amendments would serve as a strong check on the growth
of government. We know better now.

Why
would societies (like medieval Iceland) go from a nice, anarchic
(lower ambient error?) situation to a lousy, governmental (high
ambient error) situation? Again, please answer in terms of PCT.

Again a good question. That society lasted for about 400 years (about
twice as long as the U.S. so far), and my understanding is that, though
the circumstances of its demise are somewhat vague, it appears to have
been the result of foreign conquest--a disturbance they couldn't
compensate for.

Mike

[From Rick Marken (990210.1030)]

Mike Acree (990210.0920 PST)--

I understood your claim (or those of some others on the
Net) to be that private fire departments and anarchic
societies didn't work and therefore couldn't exist.

I still don't really know what you think an anarchic society
_is_ (from a PCT perspective), let alone whether it will work
or not.

it is possible that your concept of government is
idiosyncratic enough that you would see government
where others don't. In that case simple pointing would
fail, and attention would shift to the justification for
your definition.

I define "government" as a system level _perceptual variable_.
This perception is a function of many lower level perceptions
including perceptions of the rules and principles that seem
to be involved in the interactions of groups of people. So I
perceive various types of government in the behavior of baseball
teams, kids clubs, private companies and societies, cities,
states and nations.

Me:

Also, what makes an anarchic society better than a
governmental society?

Ye:

This is what got us started: the idea that negotiation
and contract (anarchy) work better for conflict resolution
than punishment-based rule of law (government).

It looks like you are _defining_ anarchy and government
as different approaches to conflict resolution: the word
"anarchy", by your definition, seems to mean "conflict
resolution by negotiation and contract"; the word
"government", by your definition, seems to mean "conflict resolution by
punishment-based rule of law ". Given these
definitions it's easy to see why who think B:CP Chapter 17
is a celebration of anarchy and a condemnation of government.

The Founding Fathers of this country were pretty radical
for their time (and I'm sure would be perceived as
dangerously anarchistic today--think of starting a
war over a tax on tea or whiskey, or just of Richard
Henry Lee's insistence that all children should be trained
in the use of guns)

Now I'm confused. I thought your definition of "anarchy"
is "conflict resolution by negotiation and contract". Now
you are telling me that the Founding Fathers were anarchists
because they went to war over a tax on tea or whiskey (War
instead of negotiation? How is this anarchistic? Sounds like
the work of a non-negotiable government to me.) and trained
their kids in the use of guns (I presume this was to solve
problems by shooting the people with whom they disagree.
Isn't getting shot a rather severe punishment? If you train
people to shoot other people aren't you teaching them to be
punitive? Aren't you training people to act like a government
rather than an anarchy? Or were the kids just being taught
to hunt? And, if so, what does hunting have to do with
anarchy, as you define it?).

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (990210.1345 EST)]

Rick Marken (990210.1030)

It looks like you are _defining_ anarchy and government
as different approaches to conflict resolution: the word
"anarchy", by your definition, seems to mean "conflict
resolution by negotiation and contract"; the word
"government", by your definition, seems to mean "conflict
resolution by
punishment-based rule of law ". Given these
definitions it's easy to see why who think B:CP Chapter 17
is a celebration of anarchy and a condemnation of government.

This was my reaction, too. But don't most governments encourage conflict
resolution by negotiation and contract among citizens? It is only when
these fail that a punishment-based rule of law is invoked. I wonder what
happens in an anarchy when negotiations break down and contracts are
abrogated? I wonder what it would be like to negotiate the speed limit
on the Mass Turnpike? I suppose that those who were not part of the
negotiations (visitors from Montana, for example) could legitimately
feel free to drive at any speed they liked. Come to think of it, that's
what they seem to do now...

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (990210.1330)]

Bruce Gregory (990210.1345 EST)--

But don't most governments encourage conflict resolution by
negotiation and contract among citizens? It is only when
these fail that a punishment-based rule of law is invoked.

Seems so to me. I don't see what this anti-government thing
is about anyway. I'm opposed to many government policies
but I don't see government per se as the problem. I don't
even see how there can be a society of humans, many of
who's goals (like building a 747) can only be achieved
by agreements to control in complex cooperative arrangements,
that doesn't have some form of government. Maybe the assumption
is that "government" is synonymous with "coercion" (credible
threat of force to back up agreements -- the rules of law).

But I am still not convinced that anarchy (whatever that is)
would be any more free of coercion than government. If anarchy
really involves no coercion then those who want to govern the
anarchists will do so and meet with no resistance (since
resistance is itself a form of coercion). So anarchy would
be indistinguishable from what we have now -- a bunch of
people who are ruled by a government they dislike but can
do nothing about because, as anarchists, they can't coerce it
to go away;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Tracy Harms(19990211.0800)]

Rick Marken (990210.1030)]

I define "government" as a system level _perceptual variable_.
This perception is a function of many lower level perceptions
including perceptions of the rules and principles that seem
to be involved in the interactions of groups of people. So I
perceive various types of government in the behavior of baseball
teams, kids clubs, private companies and societies, cities,
states and nations.

This hits me as exceedingly odd. I thought system-level perceptual
variables occurred within the subjective processes of individuals. We can
(and have been, and perhaps should continue to) argue about what
"government" might well mean, but the idea that it is a subjective
perceptual variable, rather than some sort of public or social
organization, looks bad to me.

Rick Marken (990210.1330)

But I am still not convinced that anarchy (whatever that is)
would be any more free of coercion than government. If anarchy
really involves no coercion then those who want to govern the
anarchists will do so and meet with no resistance (since
resistance is itself a form of coercion). So anarchy would
be indistinguishable from what we have now -- a bunch of
people who are ruled by a government they dislike but can
do nothing about because, as anarchists, they can't coerce it
to go away;-)

This helps me understand why you say "I don't see what this anti-government
thing is about anyway." You don't seem to have a basic grasp on the line
of criticism Mike brings to the table. I have my own criticisms of that
species of political argument, mind you. Yet it is hard for me to generate
a characterization of this last paragraph in terms which are polite, much
less kind. You seem to have no idea of what the idea of coercion involves
in the libertarian vocabulary. Because of this, your criticism falls far
short of any mark. This idea that anarchists are somehow hobbled, by their
own political ideals, from striking back at those who impose political
burdens--it is unconnected with almost any historically argued anarchism.
There are a few: Robert LeFevre and other pacifists, maybe extending to
Tolstoi and Ghandi. But by and large this is false in a manner which
should be obvious to any student of such ideas and ideals.

Tracy Harms
Bend, Oregon

[From Rick Marken (990211.0930)]

Martin Taylor (990210 17:00) --

Another excellent post. Thanks.

Me:

I define "government" as a system level _perceptual variable_.

Tracy Harms(19990211.0800)--

This hits me as exceedingly odd.

Everything about PCT is odd (from the perspective of
"conventional wisdom") when you really start to think
about it;-)

I thought system-level perceptual variables occurred within
the subjective processes of individuals.

_All_ perceptual variables are subjective processes in the
individual.

We can (and have been, and perhaps should continue to)
argue about what "government" might well mean, but the
idea that it is a subjective perceptual variable, rather
than some sort of public or social organization, looks
bad to me.

The meaning of a word (for me) is the perception(s) with
which it is associated. "Government" is a word that (for
me) is associated with a perception of "some sort of public
or social organization". "Anarchy" is a word that evokes a
perception of a different sort of social organization.

Governments (and anarchies) aren't "really" out there, any
more than trees or colors are "really" out there. All these
experiences (according to PCT) are perceptual constructions,
based (I am sure) on something that is "really" out there;
but the perceptions are a map of that reality; constructions
produced by perceptual functions in the brain. Everything
(according to PCT) is perception.

Me:

If anarchy really involves no coercion then those who want
to govern the anarchists will do so and meet with no
resistance..

Tracy:

This helps me understand why you say "I don't see what
this anti-government thing is about anyway." You don't
seem to have a basic grasp on the line of criticism Mike
brings to the table.

I'm trying;-)

You seem to have no idea of what the idea of coercion
involves in the libertarian vocabulary.

Help me out. I thought Mike said there was no coercion in a
a libertarian society; if people want to set up a government
in that society then nobody will stop them. What am I missing?

This idea that anarchists are somehow hobbled, by their
own political ideals, from striking back at those who
impose political burdens--it is unconnected with almost any
historically argued anarchism.

That's what I thought. I suggested to Mike that anarchists
would have to _enforce_ their anarchy against mavericks who
would impose "political burdens" like a government. My point
was, of course, that anarchists govern by the "rule of law"
(the law of anarchy in their case) as do non-anarchists.
Enforcing the "rule of law" is nothing more than control
of behavior relative to a reference specification (the law)
for that behavior; it is coercion.

I think "anarchy" is just a verbal trick; it's trying to
make believe that it is _not_ coercive because it says
"everyone should be free". The coercive nature of anarchy is
hidden by shouting _freedom_ while talking quietly about the
way things _should_ be. As soon as one has an idea about how
other people _should_ behave -- even if the idea is that
other people should be free -- then what one really has is
an idea about controlling other people's behavior (coercion);
anarchists contradict their freedom loving ideals as soon
as they talk about the way society _should_ be; they are
advocating coercion as much as any advocate of government
regulation; they are talking about depriving people of
their freedom to choose non-anarchy.

The solution (I think) is to stop trying to analyze society
in terms of system concepts (like socialism, capitalism,
libertarianism, etc) that were developed before we had a
scientific understanding of the nature of humans as
perceptual control systems. If we really want to figure
out how people can best organize themselves I think we
should start looking at human societies in terms of the
nature of the systems that make them up.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (990211.1330 EST)]

Rick Marken (990211.0930)

The solution (I think) is to stop trying to analyze society
in terms of system concepts (like socialism, capitalism,
libertarianism, etc) that were developed before we had a
scientific understanding of the nature of humans as
perceptual control systems. If we really want to figure
out how people can best organize themselves I think we
should start looking at human societies in terms of the
nature of the systems that make them up.

What a refreshing idea. I see that Martin agrees as well.

Bruce Gregory

[From Tracy Harms (19990211.1830)]

I find I have more to say on the paragraph by Rick Marken (990210.1330)

But I am still not convinced that anarchy (whatever that is)
would be any more free of coercion than government. If anarchy
really involves no coercion then those who want to govern the
anarchists will do so and meet with no resistance (since
resistance is itself a form of coercion). So anarchy would
be indistinguishable from what we have now -- a bunch of
people who are ruled by a government they dislike but can
do nothing about because, as anarchists, they can't coerce it
to go away;-)

In my hastily-composed message of this morning I omitted some things I'd
like to say now.

First is to make clear that I don't expect that anarchy does mean absence
of coercion, especially if you meant to use the term "coercion" with a
technical meaning formed for PCT.

Secondly, I may have left the impression that the likes of Mahatma Ghandi
and Robert LeFevre could do nothing about state impositions, as you claim,
Rick. Not at all. The insight of nonviolent resistance is that the
impositions in question are relying on the actions of people to support
them, but those people are in fact autonomous. With the withdrawal of
support, e.g. non-participation in the alleged "requirements", oppressive
institutions are at severe risk and often crumble. I'm unsure as to
whether or not absence of cooperation would count as "coercion" in a
PCT-specific sense, but I'd be a bit surprised if it did. Regardless, I am
confident it would not count as a repugnant thing to *any* anarchist
advocacy. Furthermore, theories of nonviolent resistance *easily* fit the
PCT "Chapter 17" idea that a primary fact of social reality is that people
act in accordance with their values, so when those values are at odds with
authoritarian commands, the commands will remain unsatisfied no matter how
strong the insistence.

Tracy Harms
Bend, Oregon

Tracy Harms
Bend, Oregon

···

________________________________________________________________________

     Evolutionary Epistemology explains that there is progress in
     the growth of knowledge, but does not assess such progress as
     increase in the accuracy of depiction or as an increase in
     certainty. It measures this progress in terms of an increase
     in universality and abstraction and presents the startling
     conclusion that we have knowledge of reality even though we
     cannot represent or depict reality.
                                                     Peter Munz

[From Bruce Gregory (990212.0517 EST)]

Tracy Harms (19990211.1830)

Furthermore, theories of nonviolent resistance *easily* fit the
PCT "Chapter 17" idea that a primary fact of social reality is that people
act in accordance with their values, so when those values are at odds with
authoritarian commands, the commands will remain unsatisfied no matter how
strong the insistence.

It would be interesting to see how nonviolent resistance would have fared in
Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

Bruce Gregory

[From Chris Cherpas (990212.0730 PT)]

Tracy Harms (19990211.1830)--

Furthermore, theories of nonviolent resistance *easily* fit the
PCT "Chapter 17" idea that a primary fact of social reality is that people
act in accordance with their values, so when those values are at odds with
authoritarian commands, the commands will remain unsatisfied no matter how
strong the insistence.

Bruce Gregory (990212.0517 EST)--

It would be interesting to see how nonviolent resistance would have fared in
Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

Another example to consider is the early Christians.

Regards,
cc

[From Rick Marken (990212.0830)]

Tracy Harms (19990211.1830)--

I may have left the impression that the likes of Mahatma
Ghandi and Robert LeFevre could do nothing about state
impositions, as you claim, Rick. Not at all.

I wasn't claiming that "the likes of Mahatma Ghandi and Robert
LeFevre could do nothing about state impositions". My point was
just that anarchy -- like democracy, monarchy, socialism,
capitalism, Christianity, etc.-- is just another system concept
that some people believe others should embrace (control for).

Regardless of whether or not one likes (or can find
intellectual justification for) a particular system concept,
when people act, by whatever means -- violent or
non-violent -- to get others to "buy in" to those system
concepts, they are acting to control the behavior of other
people and, thus, they are likely to end up disturbing
perceptions that those other people are controlling. You can
tell that this kind of interpersonal control is happening
when there are obvious signs of conflict --war, riots, etc.--
which is exactly what we saw in the American Revolution and
Civil War, the French Revolution and the Indian fight for
independence.

My point, therefore, is not that one system concept (like
government) is more or less coercive than another (like
anarchy). My point was that when one tries to get people to
accept _any_ system concept -- even one that says people
should be free and uncontrolled -- there is control of
behavior (coercion).

Humans are input control systems; there is no way out of
this situation. As Bill said in B:CP Ch. 17 "we _are_ the
problem" because we _are_ controllers. We can't decree
this problem away by saying that society _should_ work in a
particular way. We have to solve whatever social problems we
see (and different person will obviously see different
social problems since people have different references for
what various perceptual aspects of society should be) in
the context of understanding that _people are input control
systems_.

Best

Rick

···

------
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (990212.1430 EST)]

Rick Marken (990212.0830)

My point, therefore, is not that one system concept (like
government) is more or less coercive than another (like
anarchy). My point was that when one tries to get people to
accept _any_ system concept -- even one that says people
should be free and uncontrolled -- there is control of
behavior (coercion).

I would appreciate it if you would make a serious effort to say
something that I can disagree with. Thanks.

Bruce Gregory

from [Fred Nickols (980213.0655)] --

I've been following the anarchy discussion. An exchange between Rick
Marken and Tracy Harms prompts an inquiry on my part.

Rick (990211.0930) writes --

Governments (and anarchies) aren't "really" out there, any
more than trees or colors are "really" out there. All these
experiences (according to PCT) are perceptual constructions,
based (I am sure) on something that is "really" out there;
but the perceptions are a map of that reality; constructions
produced by perceptual functions in the brain. Everything
(according to PCT) is perception.

Here's the question (and I guess it's for Rick and for Bill P):

Is it the view/belief/theory of PCT that there is nothing out there and, as
Rick says above, "Everything is perception" or is it the view/belief/theory
of PCT that all we can ever know of any external reality is what we
perceive. For what it's worth, I have no trouble with the latter but the
former gives me fits.

···

--

Regards,

Fred Nickols
Distance Consulting
http://home.att.net/~nickols/distance.htm
nickols@worldnet.att.net
(609) 490-0095

[From Bruce Gregory (990213.0818 EST)]

Fred Nickols (980213.0655)

Is it the view/belief/theory of PCT that there is nothing out
there and, as
Rick says above, "Everything is perception" or is it the
view/belief/theory
of PCT that all we can ever know of any external reality is what we
perceive. For what it's worth, I have no trouble with the latter but the
former gives me fits.

You can relax, Fred.

Bruce Gregory