[Attachment Removed] RE: Origins

CSGnet Archive CSG2016
1

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET)]

FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

image00261.png

image0013.emz (9.8 KB)

···

From: Adam Matic [mailto:adam.matic@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:36 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Origins

[From Adam Matic 2016.11.9]

From that list, I’d guess Weiner and a bunch of analog computing / control theory guys, like Soroka and Korn. Bill mentions Weiner as the first time he recognized that control theory could be applied to living organisms, so cybernetics was a major influence; but the quantitative models and experimental results are what makes PCT stand out, and they were developed on classical control theory and analog computing.

Also, this is a nice one:

How Perceptual Control Theory Began: A Personal History

by Mary A. Powers

http://www.iapct.org/festschrift/mary.html

Best,

Adam

Sources mentioned in Powers, MacFarland, Clark (1960):

  1. Ashby, W. R. (1952). Design for a brain.
  1. Frank, L. K. et al. (1948). Teleological mechanisms.
  1. Fulton, J.F. (1949). Physiology of the nervous system
  1. Hebb (1954) Brain mechanisms and Consciousness
  1. Hebb (1949). Organization of Behavior: a Neurophysiological Theory
  1. Hick & Bates (1950). Human operator of Control Mechanisms
  1. Korn & Korn (1952). Electronic Analogue Computers.
  1. Shannon & Weaver (1949). The Mathematical Theory of Communication.
  1. Soroka (1954). Analogue methods in Computation and Simulation.
  1. Truxall (1955). Control System Synthesis.
  1. Wiener (1948). Cybernetics.

Kind Regards,

Andrew

2

What nonsense! Sorry Alex - PCT arrogance again!

image00261.png

···

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET)]

FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

From: Adam Matic [mailto:adam.matic@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:36 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Origins

[From Adam Matic 2016.11.9]

From that list, I’d guess Weiner and a bunch of analog computing / control theory guys, like Soroka and Korn. Bill mentions Weiner as the first time he recognized that control theory could be applied to living organisms, so cybernetics was a major influence; but the quantitative models and experimental results are what makes PCT stand out, and they were developed on classical control theory and analog computing.

Also, this is a nice one:

How Perceptual Control Theory Began: A Personal History

by Mary A. Powers

http://www.iapct.org/festschrift/mary.html

Best,

Adam

Sources mentioned in Powers, MacFarland, Clark (1960):

  1. Ashby, W. R. (1952). Design for a brain.
  1. Frank, L. K. et al. (1948). Teleological mechanisms.
  1. Fulton, J.F. (1949). Physiology of the nervous system
  1. Hebb (1954) Brain mechanisms and Consciousness
  1. Hebb (1949). Organization of Behavior: a Neurophysiological Theory
  1. Hick & Bates (1950). Human operator of Control Mechanisms
  1. Korn & Korn (1952). Electronic Analogue Computers.
  1. Shannon & Weaver (1949). The Mathematical Theory of Communication.
  1. Soroka (1954). Analogue methods in Computation and Simulation.
  1. Truxall (1955). Control System Synthesis.
  1. Wiener (1948). Cybernetics.

Kind Regards,

Andrew

–

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

3

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0841)]

A question, Warren: Are you saying that Bayliss’ diagram is nonsense?

Fred Nickols

image00261.png

···

From: Warren Mansell [mailto:wmansell@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 8:28 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: [Attachment Removed] RE: Origins

What nonsense! Sorry Alex - PCT arrogance again!

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET)]

FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

From: Adam Matic [mailto:adam.matic@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:36 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Origins

[From Adam Matic 2016.11.9]

From that list, I’d guess Weiner and a bunch of analog computing / control theory guys, like Soroka and Korn. Bill mentions Weiner as the first time he recognized that control theory could be applied to living organisms, so cybernetics was a major influence; but the quantitative models and experimental results are what makes PCT stand out, and they were developed on classical control theory and analog computing.

Also, this is a nice one:

How Perceptual Control Theory Began: A Personal History

by Mary A. Powers

http://www.iapct.org/festschrift/mary.html

Best,

Adam

Sources mentioned in Powers, MacFarland, Clark (1960):

  1. Ashby, W. R. (1952). Design for a brain.
  1. Frank, L. K. et al. (1948). Teleological mechanisms.
  1. Fulton, J.F. (1949). Physiology of the nervous system
  1. Hebb (1954) Brain mechanisms and Consciousness
  1. Hebb (1949). Organization of Behavior: a Neurophysiological Theory
  1. Hick & Bates (1950). Human operator of Control Mechanisms
  1. Korn & Korn (1952). Electronic Analogue Computers.
  1. Shannon & Weaver (1949). The Mathematical Theory of Communication.
  1. Soroka (1954). Analogue methods in Computation and Simulation.
  1. Truxall (1955). Control System Synthesis.
  1. Wiener (1948). Cybernetics.

Kind Regards,

Andrew

–

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

4

That’s fine, Warren. It is actually more than arrogance for a community whose missing Leader and current Preacher claim to bring forth a revolution that will transform the social and biological sciences, as dozens of research fields go to the rubbish bin, and as thousands of clever scientists are deemed as stupid, and their careers as a waste of time to learn close to nothing. I stick to PCT because I see great value in it, but I must admit it is very difficult to stand such delusions of grandeur, specially from people who are really very poor at maths, indifferent to empirical evidence, really unwilling to argue logically, obsessed with rhetorics and parochial sermons, and not willing to understand the phenomena they have in front. And I understand that it is sometimes productive to be nice to everyone as a way to keep as many converted sheep as possible, but that does not pay off in the long term.

image00261.png

···

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

What nonsense! Sorry Alex - PCT arrogance again!

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET)]

FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

From: Adam Matic [mailto:adam.matic@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:36 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Origins

[From Adam Matic 2016.11.9]

From that list, I’d guess Weiner and a bunch of analog computing / control theory guys, like Soroka and Korn. Bill mentions Weiner as the first time he recognized that control theory could be applied to living organisms, so cybernetics was a major influence; but the quantitative models and experimental results are what makes PCT stand out, and they were developed on classical control theory and analog computing.

Also, this is a nice one:

How Perceptual Control Theory Began: A Personal History

by Mary A. Powers

http://www.iapct.org/festschrift/mary.html

Best,

Adam

Sources mentioned in Powers, MacFarland, Clark (1960):

  1. Ashby, W. R. (1952). Design for a brain.
  1. Frank, L. K. et al. (1948). Teleological mechanisms.
  1. Fulton, J.F. (1949). Physiology of the nervous system
  1. Hebb (1954) Brain mechanisms and Consciousness
  1. Hebb (1949). Organization of Behavior: a Neurophysiological Theory
  1. Hick & Bates (1950). Human operator of Control Mechanisms
  1. Korn & Korn (1952). Electronic Analogue Computers.
  1. Shannon & Weaver (1949). The Mathematical Theory of Communication.
  1. Soroka (1954). Analogue methods in Computation and Simulation.
  1. Truxall (1955). Control System Synthesis.
  1. Wiener (1948). Cybernetics.

Kind Regards,

Andrew

–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

5

Barb P: Andrew, welcome to csgnet. I appreciate your interest in PCT! I’d like to make you aware that we have archived my father, Bill Powers’ work at Northwestern University. They are supposed to be providing an electronic index of the contents online. With our help, you can obtain information from those archives. Visitors to the NU campus can request documents to view in the Archive Department. Please contact me if you would like more information about that.

Also, we are planning a conference to be held on that campus during the first week of August, 2017. You are more than welcome to join us then. Details will follow in the coming months on this listserv.

Best,

*barb (Barb Powers)

image00261.png

···

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Alex Gomez-Marin agomezmarin@gmail.com wrote:

That’s fine, Warren. It is actually more than arrogance for a community whose missing Leader and current Preacher claim to bring forth a revolution that will transform the social and biological sciences, as dozens of research fields go to the rubbish bin, and as thousands of clever scientists are deemed as stupid, and their careers as a waste of time to learn close to nothing. I stick to PCT because I see great value in it, but I must admit it is very difficult to stand such delusions of grandeur, specially from people who are really very poor at maths, indifferent to empirical evidence, really unwilling to argue logically, obsessed with rhetorics and parochial sermons, and not willing to understand the phenomena they have in front. And I understand that it is sometimes productive to be nice to everyone as a way to keep as many converted sheep as possible, but that does not pay off in the long term.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

What nonsense! Sorry Alex - PCT arrogance again!

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET)]

FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

From: Adam Matic [mailto:adam.matic@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:36 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Origins

[From Adam Matic 2016.11.9]

From that list, I’d guess Weiner and a bunch of analog computing / control theory guys, like Soroka and Korn. Bill mentions Weiner as the first time he recognized that control theory could be applied to living organisms, so cybernetics was a major influence; but the quantitative models and experimental results are what makes PCT stand out, and they were developed on classical control theory and analog computing.

Also, this is a nice one:

How Perceptual Control Theory Began: A Personal History

by Mary A. Powers

http://www.iapct.org/festschrift/mary.html

Best,

Adam

Sources mentioned in Powers, MacFarland, Clark (1960):

  1. Ashby, W. R. (1952). Design for a brain.
  1. Frank, L. K. et al. (1948). Teleological mechanisms.
  1. Fulton, J.F. (1949). Physiology of the nervous system
  1. Hebb (1954) Brain mechanisms and Consciousness
  1. Hebb (1949). Organization of Behavior: a Neurophysiological Theory
  1. Hick & Bates (1950). Human operator of Control Mechanisms
  1. Korn & Korn (1952). Electronic Analogue Computers.
  1. Shannon & Weaver (1949). The Mathematical Theory of Communication.
  1. Soroka (1954). Analogue methods in Computation and Simulation.
  1. Truxall (1955). Control System Synthesis.
  1. Wiener (1948). Cybernetics.

Kind Regards,

Andrew

–
Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology

School of Health Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

6

[From Bruce Abbott (2016.09.12.1355 EDT]

Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET) –

FN: FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

BA: Not knowing the accompanying text, I can only guess, but I suspect that the two-way arrows are intended to represent two-way variation in the labeled variables. The labels are standard engineering practice. I will indicate the equivalent PCT terms: “Input� is the reference signal, “misalignment� is the error signal, “controlled power� is the output, “output� is the environmental controlled variable (CV), “load� or “demand� is the effect of disturbances on the CV,  and “disturbances� are disturbances. The node labeled “fixed� most likely is the perceptual input function that converts motor speed into motor-speed perception. The output of this function, labeled “feed-back,� is the controlled perception. So, other than a difference in labeling, it is a proper diagram of a simple proportional control system. I like the fact that the diagram shows “power� as an input to the controller and “controlled power� as the output to the motor. This makes explicit the fact that control systems draw the power to drive their outputs from an external source, rather than from the energy in the signals. A biological example is found in so-called “motor control,� where neuronal axons and dendrites carry the signals (in the form of neural impulses) that ultimately cause the muscles to contract (via the alpha motor neuron output), but the power driving the contraction itself comes from energy stored in the muscle cells.

image00261.png

7

[From Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.1450 ET)]

Thanks, Bruce, that’s helpful.  I figured as much about the labels but hadn’t a clue as To “fixed.� One of the things I’m finding interesting about Bayliss’ book has to do with his explanation of those “internal� control systems (e.g., breathing) and the distinction he draws early on between inputs that are transformed into outputs and those that are used to power the transformations. In those places where he refers to “set point� I suspect that’s what we’d call “reference signal.� Does that sound right?

Fred Nickols

image00261.png

···

From: Bruce Abbott [mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 1:55 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: [Attachment Removed] RE: Origins

[From Bruce Abbott (2016.09.12.1355 EDT]

Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET) –

FN: FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

BA: Not knowing the accompanying text, I can only guess, but I suspect that the two-way arrows are intended to represent two-way variation in the labeled variables. The labels are standard engineering practice. I will indicate the equivalent PCT terms: “Input� is the reference signal, “misalignment� is the error signal, “controlled power� is the output, “output� is the environmental controlled variable (CV), “load� or “demand� is the effect of disturbances on the CV, and “disturbances� are disturbances. The node labeled “fixed� most likely is the perceptual input function that converts motor speed into motor-speed perception. The output of this function, labeled “feed-back,� is the controlled perception. So, other than a difference in labeling, it is a proper diagram of a simple proportional control system. I like the fact that the diagram shows “power� as an input to the controller and “controlled power� as the output to the motor. This makes explicit the fact that control systems draw the power to drive their outputs from an external source, rather than from the energy in the signals. A biological example is found in so-called “motor control,� where neuronal axons and dendrites carry the signals (in the form of neural impulses) that ultimately cause the muscles to contract (via the alpha motor neuron output), but the power driving the contraction itself comes from energy stored in the muscle cells.

8

[From Bruce Abbott (2016.09.13.0710 EDT)]

Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.1450 ET) –

FN: Thanks, Bruce, that’s helpful. I figured as much about the labels but hadn’t a clue as To “fixed.� One of the things I’m finding interesting about Bayliss’ book has to do with his explanation of those “internal� control systems (e.g., breathing) and the distinction he draws early on between inputs that are transformed into outputs and those that are used to power the transformations. In those places where he refers to “set point� I suspect that’s what we’d call “reference signal.� Does that sound right?

BA: Yes. The term “set point� usually refers to reference signals that are set (usually by an operator) to a given value and changed infrequently, such as the set point of a thermostat or a car’s cruise control. When the control system is employed as a servomechanism, the reference (“input�) tends to vary continuously and the “output� follows along. Positioning of a robotic arm works this way, as does the power steering unit of a car. In the latter case, the reference value is determined by the positioning of the steering wheel; changing this position actuates a change in the power steering arm’s position, which through the steering linkages determines the positions of the front wheels.

Bruce

image00261.png

···

From: Bruce Abbott [mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 1:55 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: [Attachment Removed] RE: Origins

[From Bruce Abbott (2016.09.12.1355 EDT]

Fred Nickols (2016.09.12.0739 ET) –

FN: FWIW, here’s Bayliss’ diagram of a simple control system. It appears on page 6 of his book, Living Control Systems (1966) but note that the diagram is from a book published in 1960. I’m not sure I get why all the arrows are two-directional and I have no idea what (Fixed) refers to.

BA: Not knowing the accompanying text, I can only guess, but I suspect that the two-way arrows are intended to represent two-way variation in the labeled variables. The labels are standard engineering practice. I will indicate the equivalent PCT terms: “Input� is the reference signal, “misalignment� is the error signal, “controlled power� is the output, “output� is the environmental controlled variable (CV), “load� or “demand� is the effect of disturbances on the CV, and “disturbances� are disturbances. The node labeled “fixed� most likely is the perceptual input function that converts motor speed into motor-speed perception. The output of this function, labeled “feed-back,� is the controlled perception. So, other than a difference in labeling, it is a proper diagram of a simple proportional control system. I like the fact that the diagram shows “power� as an input to the controller and “controlled power� as the output to the motor. This makes explicit the fact that control systems draw the power to drive their outputs from an external source, rather than from the energy in the signals. A biological example is found in so-called “motor control,� where neuronal axons and dendrites carry the signals (in the form of neural impulses) that ultimately cause the muscles to contract (via the alpha motor neuron output), but the power driving the contraction itself comes from energy stored in the muscle cells.