B:CP Course Week 7: Study Guide for CH. 6 A Hierarchy of Control Systems

CSGnet Archive CSG2013
1

[From Rick Marken (2013.08.11.1231)]

The Study Guide for Ch. 6 is attached. Not much to it; just the
Leading Questions this time. But those questions are hard; I'm not
sure that I know the answers myself. So it would be nice to see some
attempted replies to those questions so I could learn something
myself.

Best

Rick

Study Guide, Ch 6 Hierarchy of Control.doc (26 KB)

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

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2

[From Rupert Young (2013.08.17 20.45 BST)]

Up until now B:CP's presentation of single feedback control systems has been fairly understandable and intuitive when related to particular examples of behaviour, such as driving a car. Extending the idea to a hierarchy of systems, related to the metaphorical hierarchy of behaviour that can be clearly envisaged is a great insight. However, it is here that the theory becomes more speculative and it is difficult to understand what sort of form the transfer functions between the levels might take. It is this, I think, that makes (H)PCT hard to sell as a universal theory for the behaviour of living systems. Unfortunately, in the 40 years since publication there has been very little progress, as far as I am aware, along these lines, but would be the most important area of research to progress in order to convince others of the efficacy of PCT.

Leading questions:
1. Yes, press on it with finger. Perhaps with using a friend's finger; I perceive pressure, she effort. My finger, friend's hand? Sensation of pressure is lower. No.
2. No, breathing remains at the same level, and happens without conscious effort. The controlled perception in this case is obtaining oxygen and the action is to solve equations.
3. No I can't think of one, if it doesn't affect the perception then no correction is required.
4. To buy ice cream, go to ice cream place, walk outside, open front door, go to closet, put on trousers, stand up, tense leg muscles such that I perceive myself in upright position.
5. Does the reference level for body temperature rise? As the body temperature is higher the external temperature feels colder? Cold with rising, hot with falling.
6. A reference level can be described as wanting something; likewise with desires, beliefs and goals. This last question is very deep and, I think, refers to the (false) dualistic view of the world in which the mind is separate from the body, or in this case separate from the perceptual control systems. There is no you external to the control systems that can change reference levels. However, changing what is wanted can happen from within the system if another (higher) system overrides the current goal.
Regards,
Rupert

3

[David Goldstein (2013.08.18.13:55)]

  [From Rupert Young (2013.08.17 20.45

BST)]

I think that the strongest evidence for a hierarchy is the work of F. Plooij and assocites. The beginning of all the levels is in place by the end of infancy (about 2 years old).

Take a look at his book Wonder Weeks. There is also an app available on the iphone, if you have that kind of phone.

Also, Rick Marken’s spreadsheet model provides a more concrete example of how it could work.

The fact that signals within a person are “neural currents” is an important point. It allows the communication

between apparently qualitatively different perceptions.

David

With respect to your answers:

  1. Don’t you perceive effort when she presses on your hand? How did you decide that pressure is lower than effort?

  2. Can’t one control breathing voluntarily to some degree? Does the perception of breathing require the perception of solving algebraic equations. Does the perception

of solving algebraic equations require the perception of breathing? The alien set up a program: if you want to breathe, then you must solve algebraic equations.

  1. What if the road is icy? What if a person has been drinking a lot and the person’s perceptions are off?

4.Are these placed in order of higher to lower?

  1. What causes changes in the temperature reference signal?

  2. When we get to the chapter on the Reorganization System, let’s see if you still think this.

···

From: Rupert Young rupert@MOONSIT.CO.UK
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: B:CP Course Week 7: Study Guide for CH. 6 A Hierarchy of Control Systems

  [From Rupert Young (2013.08.17 20.45

BST)]

  Up until now B:CP's presentation of single feedback control

systems has been fairly understandable and intuitive when related
to particular examples of behaviour, such as driving a car.
Extending the idea to a hierarchy of systems, related to the
metaphorical hierarchy of behaviour that can be clearly envisaged
is a great insight. However, it is here that the theory becomes
more speculative and it is difficult to understand what sort of
form the transfer functions between the levels might take. It is
this, I think, that makes (H)PCT hard to sell as a universal
theory for the behaviour of living systems. Unfortunately, in the
40 years since publication there has been very little progress, as
far as I am aware, along these lines, but would be the most
important area of research to progress in order to convince others
of the efficacy of PCT.

  Leading questions:

  1.       Yes, press on it with finger. Perhaps with using a friend's

finger; I perceive pressure, she effort. My finger, friend’s
hand? Sensation of pressure is lower. No.

  1.       No, breathing remains at the same level, and happens without

conscious effort. The controlled perception in this case is
obtaining oxygen and the action is to solve equations.

  1.       No I can't think of one, if it doesn't affect the perception

then no correction is required.

  1.       To buy ice cream,  go to ice cream place, walk outside, open

front door, go to closet, put on trousers, stand up, tense leg
muscles such that I perceive myself in upright position.

  1.       Does the reference level for body temperature rise? As the

body temperature is higher the external temperature feels
colder? Cold with rising, hot with falling.

  1.       A reference level can be described as wanting something;

likewise with desires, beliefs and goals. This last question
is very deep and, I think, refers to the (false) dualistic
view of the world in which the mind is separate from the body,
or in this case separate from the perceptual control systems.
There is no you external to the control systems that
can change reference levels. However, changing what is wanted
can happen from within the system if another (higher) system
overrides the current goal.

Regards,
Rupert
4

[From Rupert Young
(2013.08.18 21.30 BST)]

(David Goldstein (2013.08.18.13:55))

    DG: I think that the strongest

evidence for a hierarchy is the work of F. Plooij and assocites.
The beginning of all the levels is in place by the end of
infancy (about 2 years old).Take a look at his book Wonder
Weeks. There is also an app available on the iphone, if you have
that kind of phone.

    RY: My recollection of a talk I attended on this is that the

correlation to the PCT hierarchy was very weak.

    DG: Also, Rick Marken's

spreadsheet model provides a more concrete example of how it
could work.

    RY: Yes this is good, but still quite limited in scope, with

only a few connections between levels, relative to the
complexity of a real system. More of it is required.

    DG: With respect to your

answers:

    RY: these look like more leading questions ;-(

    1. Don't you perceive effort when she presses on your hand? How

did you decide that pressure is lower than effort?

    No, I can perceive pressure, but the effort is hers so I cannot

perceive her perception. Similarly if my hand is on the table
and someone puts a brick on it I can feel the pressure on my
hand, but no effort is required.

    2. Can't one control breathing

voluntarily to some degree? Does the perception of breathing
require the perception of solving algebraic equations. Does the
perception

    of solving algebraic equations

require the perception of breathing? The alien set up a program:
if you want to breathe, then you must solve algebraic equations.

    You can only change the rate of breathing. In this case I guess

it does, however does that mean breathing is a level higher
perception? If yes does that mean that breathing is always
a highest level perception?

    3. What if the road is icy?

What if a person has been drinking a lot and the person’s
perceptions are off?

    Both of these would affect the relationship of the car and road.

    4.Are these placed in order of

higher to lower?

    Yes I think so.

    5. What causes changes in the

temperature reference signal?

    I don't know, I was questioning whether the reference signal

actually changes. Doesn’t the reference stay the same but the
virus causes a change in the body temperature, and perception
changes?

    6. When we get to the chapter

on the Reorganization System, let’s see if you still think this.

    Will that be in favour of dualism?

    Regards,

    Rupert
5

[From Kent McClelland (2013.08.19 11.45 EDT)]

Rick Marken (2013.08.18.1130)
Rupert Young (2013.08.17 20.45 BST)

from Rick's summary for Chapter 6:

My answer to the third Leading Question is also �no�, I can�t think of a disturbance that doesn�t affect the car�s relationship to the road but does require the steering wheel to correct it. The steering wheel is the means � lower level perception � of compensating disturbances to the car�s relationship to the road. So if there is no disturbance to the higher level variable there is no need to vary the lower level one.

KM: It seems to me that when Rick and Rupert answered No to Leading Question 3 from Chapter 6, they weren't being as imaginative as they might have been.

What if the disturbance is a road sign that says something like "Route 93 next right" or "Good eats, this exit"? You might immediately begin steering for the off-ramp if, say, you want to continue your journey on Route 93 or you're really hungry for something to eat.

Or what if you're traveling down a multilane highway and see a deer/accident/police car flashing its lights in the lane ahead of you? You would probably steer immediately to a different lane of the road or take some other evasive action.

It all depends on the higher-level perceptions that you are trying to control (on even higher levels than maintaining the car's relationship to the road by keeping it in the middle of the highway lane on which you are traveling).

My best,

Kent

···

On Aug 18, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Rupert Young wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2013.08.18 21.30 BST)]

(David Goldstein (2013.08.18.13:55))

DG: I think that the strongest evidence for a hierarchy is the work of F. Plooij and assocites. The beginning of all the levels is in place by the end of infancy (about 2 years old).Take a look at his book Wonder Weeks. There is also an app available on the iphone, if you have that kind of phone.

RY: My recollection of a talk I attended on this is that the correlation to the PCT hierarchy was very weak.

DG: Also, Rick Marken's spreadsheet model provides a more concrete example of how it could work.

RY: Yes this is good, but still quite limited in scope, with only a few connections between levels, relative to the complexity of a real system. More of it is required.

DG: With respect to your answers:

RY: these look like more leading questions ;-(

1. Don't you perceive effort when she presses on your hand? How did you decide that pressure is lower than effort?

No, I can perceive pressure, but the effort is hers so I cannot perceive her perception. Similarly if my hand is on the table and someone puts a brick on it I can feel the pressure on my hand, but no effort is required.

2. Can't one control breathing voluntarily to some degree? Does the perception of breathing require the perception of solving algebraic equations. Does the perception
of solving algebraic equations require the perception of breathing? The alien set up a program: if you want to breathe, then you must solve algebraic equations.

You can only change the rate of breathing. In this case I guess it does, however does that mean breathing is a level higher perception? If yes does that mean that breathing is always a highest level perception?

3. What if the road is icy? What if a person has been drinking a lot and the person's perceptions are off?

Both of these would affect the relationship of the car and road.

4.Are these placed in order of higher to lower?

Yes I think so.

5. What causes changes in the temperature reference signal?

I don't know, I was questioning whether the reference signal actually changes. Doesn't the reference stay the same but the virus causes a change in the body temperature, and perception changes?

6. When we get to the chapter on the Reorganization System, let's see if you still think this.

Will that be in favour of dualism?

Regards,
Rupert

6

[From Rick Marken (2013.08.19.1220)]

···

Kent McClelland (2013.08.19 11.45 EDT)]

Rick Marken (2013.08.18.1130)
Rupert Young (2013.08.17 20.45 BST)

From Rick’s summary for Chapter 6:

My answer to the third Leading Question is also “no”, I can’t think of a disturbance that doesn’t affect the car’s relationship to the road but does require the steering wheel to correct it. The steering wheel is the means – lower level perception – of compensating disturbances to the car’s relationship to the road. So if there is no disturbance to the higher level variable there is no need to vary the lower level one.

KM: It seems to me that when Rick and Rupert answered No to Leading Question 3 from Chapter 6, they weren’t being as imaginative as they might have been.

What if the disturbance is a road sign that says something like “Route 93 next right” or “Good eats, this exit”? You might immediately begin steering for the off-ramp if, say, you want to continue your journey on Route 93 or you’re really hungry for something to eat.

RM: Absolutely brilliant, Kent! I’ll add this to the summary.

Best

Rick

Or what if you’re traveling down a multilane highway and see a deer/accident/police car flashing its lights in the lane ahead of you? You would probably steer immediately to a different lane of the road or take some other evasive action.

It all depends on the higher-level perceptions that you are trying to control (on even higher levels than maintaining the car’s relationship to the road by keeping it in the middle of the highway lane on which you are traveling).

My best,

Kent

On Aug 18, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Rupert Young wrote:

[From Rupert Young (2013.08.18 21.30 BST)]

(David Goldstein (2013.08.18.13:55))

DG: I think that the strongest evidence for a hierarchy is the work of F. Plooij and assocites. The beginning of all the levels is in place by the end of infancy (about 2 years old).Take a look at his book Wonder Weeks. There is also an app available on the iphone, if you have that kind of phone.

RY: My recollection of a talk I attended on this is that the correlation to the PCT hierarchy was very weak.

DG: Also, Rick Marken’s spreadsheet model provides a more concrete example of how it could work.

RY: Yes this is good, but still quite limited in scope, with only a few connections between levels, relative to the complexity of a real system. More of it is required.

DG: With respect to your answers:

RY: these look like more leading questions ;-(

  1. Don’t you perceive effort when she presses on your hand? How did you decide that pressure is lower than effort?

No, I can perceive pressure, but the effort is hers so I cannot perceive her perception. Similarly if my hand is on the table and someone puts a brick on it I can feel the pressure on my hand, but no effort is required.

  1. Can’t one control breathing voluntarily to some degree? Does the perception of breathing require the perception of solving algebraic equations. Does the perception

of solving algebraic equations require the perception of breathing? The alien set up a program: if you want to breathe, then you must solve algebraic equations.

You can only change the rate of breathing. In this case I guess it does, however does that mean breathing is a level higher perception? If yes does that mean that breathing is always a highest level perception?

  1. What if the road is icy? What if a person has been drinking a lot and the person’s perceptions are off?

Both of these would affect the relationship of the car and road.

4.Are these placed in order of higher to lower?

Yes I think so.

  1. What causes changes in the temperature reference signal?

I don’t know, I was questioning whether the reference signal actually changes. Doesn’t the reference stay the same but the virus causes a change in the body temperature, and perception changes?

  1. When we get to the chapter on the Reorganization System, let’s see if you still think this.

Will that be in favour of dualism?

Regards,

Rupert

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

7

[From Erling Jorgensen (2013.08.19 16.25 EDT)]

Rick Marken (2013.08.18.1130)

Kent McClelland (2013.08.19 11.45 EDT)

Regarding the third Leading Question of chapter 6, about a disturbance
that doesn�t affect the car�s relationship to the road but does require
the steering wheel to correct it...

Kent gives the example:

What if the disturbance is a road sign that says something like "Route
93 next right" or "Good eats, this exit"? You might immediately begin
steering for the off-ramp if, say, you want to continue your journey on
Route 93 or you're really hungry for something to eat.

EJ: The example that had occurred to me, but I hadn't a chance to post
it, is if the angle of the sun is directly in your eyes, perhaps with a
dirty windhield, & the sun visor can't get positioned properly. In other
words, when the _perception_ is effectively compromised, then using the
steering wheel (& the brake!) to quickly get off on the shoulder may be
the safest way to try to correct for that disturbance.

Rick notes:

The steering wheel is the means �
lower level perception � of compensating disturbances to the car�s
relationship to the road. So if there is no disturbance to the higher
level variable there is no need to vary the lower level one.

EJ: What this discussion is helping me to realize & remember is that
_all_ regular PCT control loops are closed through the environment. (This
leaves out the cases like the so-called "imagination connection," which
is discussed in a later chapter of B:CP.) In other words, a disturbance
may not affect a relationship perception (i.e., relationship of the car
to the road), but may still disturb a higher-level hunger perception
(i.e., Kent's example) or a safety perception (i.e., my example). In any
of these cases, similar means of behavioral output may be utilized,
operating through forces exerted in the environment, to compensate for
the paticular disturbance & keep the relevant perception under control.

EJ: This is one advantage to Bill Powers' proposal for a _hierarchy_
of controlled perceptions. It points to a series of questions as to "Why"
a given perception is controlled, which moves one up the hierarchy of
control. It also points to a series of "How" questions, moving one down
the hierarchy of control, as to how control of a given perception is
enacted.

EJ: I think Bill would equally affirm the toddler's endless Why questions,
and the sixth-grader's endless How questions. There is wisdom in each
direction.

All the best,
Erling