bct and pct

[from Mary Powers 990304]

John Appel,

I have been concerned all along with your defense of BCT as a theory.
Basically what you propose are two if-then propositions:

If parents are too controlling, then their children grow up insane.

If parents aren't controlling enough, then their children grow up insane.

And then an assertion described as a definition:

"Sanity is the ability to to anticipate and evaluate the effect of an action."
(Insanity, presumably, is the inability...

You have not, to my knowledge, gotten beyond statements like this. What you
don't realize is they do not constitute the theory you are working from in
the sense that PCT is the theory that, say, Rick is working from. They are
_applications_ of a theory called "cause and effect", also known as
"input-ouput", and, in some circles, "stimulus-response". You are saying
that events in early life (age 1 1/2 to 2 1/2, I believe you said),
specifically over- and under-control by the parents, cause insanity. A
causes B.

But cause-effect doesn't say _how_ events (varieties of parental control in
childhood) cause insanity. Actions by parents go in, insanity comes out
(sometimes, but not always). What happens inside? It's a black box.

I think you have a glimmering of an answer in the realization that control
has something to do with it. And explaining control is what PCT is all
about. PCT is a theory about what is inside that black box, and how it
works.

Beginning with the same idea you do, that people control - but focussing
initially on individual control, rather than control in relationships - PCT
explains control in the same way that control engineers do - as a function
of a _specific kind of organization_. The point is NOT that people are
"merely machines" - the point is that there is a particular arrangement and
interaction of components, first worked out by engineers but clearly evident
in neuroanatomy as well, that is necessary in order for control to be possible.

You have objected to some of the terminology we use - for instance,
reference signal. This is an engineering term, and we have chosen to use it
because it means: intention, purpose, goal, desire, want, need, craving,
yearning, itch, etc., etc., etc. - in other words, it is a term for a
particular functional component of a control system that has been called
many different things by people who have no concept of the role it plays in
a living system.

It is up to you to read PCT books if you want to know more. I think you
should read "An Outline of Control Theory" in Living Control Systems, by
William T. Powers, and his "Making Sense of Behavior". And spend some time
browsing
http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/csg/

Once you have done that, and have a sense of what a well-functioning
hierarchy of control systems is, then you can start looking into what is
involved in the relationships between control systems, and what it means to
be autonomous. I'll give you a hint: when control systems run into trouble,
it's because the same lower-level systems are trying to satisfy two
incompatible reference signals coming from higher level systems. I don't
presume to know your business better than you do, but PCT suggests that your
patients are in severe conflict. You have been talking about Leslie wanting
to be autonomous, but it seems to me that she was _also_ absolutely
terrified of being autonomous (because it meant she was sure to kill herself
or someone else, and explains why it was such a relief to be in restraints).
How this conflict was resolved in the course of therapy with you I don't
have any idea, but apparently she did discover that autonomy did not
necessarily mean being dangerous.

As for what autonomy is. Your patients, however much lack of autonomy they
feel, are actually mostly in perfectly good control. They breathe, eat,
walk around, pick things up, etc., etc. - all control processes. But where
there is conflict, there is loss of control. Conflict is the primary way of
disabling a control system, short of actual physical damage. So I'd like to
suggest that you do some reading as mentioned above, and see how and if your
experiences as a therapist are modelled by PCT more adequately than the
cause-effect model you are using now.

Mary Powers

Mary,

Thank you for the beautifully written and thought out post. I agree with it
almost completely.

I guess that I would add that BCT has a novel idea about the relationship
between the loss of control and the self-image or sense of identity. The way
that I understand it, when a person's control is low, the person's sense of
identity can be lost. I tried to get John Appel to explain how this occurs
but never received a worked out explanation.

Recently, in a DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) case I am working on, I
have witnessed the disapperance of a child alter into an adult personality
after an abusive incident was completely described, discussed and
communicated to the adult through drawings. This child alter was suicidal
and seriously cut the person many times. The person has had to have numerous
stiches. The person was hospitalized five times from Christmas. It was so
strange to witness her sudden "disapperance" after completely controlling
and dominating the person for these several months.

In this case, the alter was created when the person was trapped in a very,
very abusive incident. She had no control over the abuse she received from
her mother in the afternoon and her father in the evening. The alter
literally disappeared when the experience of this incident was communicated
to the person. The person was experiencing body symptoms related to the
incident before the communication too place. Now, there are no more body
symptoms. The person remembers the experience now. It is a part of her
experience. She is now experiencing a "tidal wave of feelings" including
anger, sadness, disgust, embarassment as she is processing the experience.
Before the intergration, there were no such feelings, only body symptoms.

PCT talks about reorganization as the way in which a new control system is
made and unmade. Reorganization occurs when the error signals are big
enough, or lasts long enough or are widespread enough. In the case of DID,
the new organization which is the alter, remains disconnected from the other
parts of the personality. One way of resolving a conflict is to completely
separate the two parts which are in conflict. One part experiences the
parents as abusive. The other part does not. If a person is not
simultaneously aware of both parts, there is no conflict.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: bct and pct
Date: 3/5/99

From John Appel 7 Mar 99

Hello David,

David Goldstein wrote:

From: David Goldstein
Subject: bct and pct
Date: 3/5/99

Mary,

Thank you for the beautifully written and thought out post. I agree with it
almost completely.

I guess that I would add that BCT has a novel idea about the relationship
between the loss of control and the self-image or sense of identity. The way
that I understand it, when a person's control is low, the person's sense of
identity can be lost. I tried to get John Appel to explain how this occurs
but never received a worked out explanation.

Here's BCT 's verson of the relation of control to idenity. Identity comes from
doing things; 'I am what I do, or as Plato put it "To do io to be," "be" means
to have an identity. "I am a butcher, a baker ,a candle stick maker. People
have a repertoire of behaviors by which they survive and by which they
establish an maintain identity. The behaviors cover a wide range of activities
of which vocation is only one. By far the most powerful actions are
interpesonal, social, interactions. An infant is genetically programmed with a
set of behaviors which are then strengthened or weakenned by nurture [vs
nature]. The principle way identity is developed is by interaction with the
mother. For example, the infant wriggles and smiles. The mother smiles back
and cuddles the infant with endearing terms. The child cries when its hungry.
The mother gives it her breast Similarly cries when needing a diaper
change.The mother changes the diaper The infant crawls off exploring its
world, putting everything into its mouth to see how it tastes It bangs pots,
"I am the pot banger." The behavbiors it adopts, or avoids are determinned by
the the reward, negative, or positive, it gets form its mother. As the child
grows,older it develops other behaviors interacting with its father, siblings
and other fsmily members And later still, coppies behavior of peers.

Well the above description is for starters.There is more, if you are
interested. Possibly Glenn would be interested in light of his posts. And by
the way, this is not just Appel theory. There is a vast literature on child
development, for example. And I still haven't explained how loss of control
impairs identity. Briefly, a person must control what he does in order to gain
a sense of idenity from doing it. If person stops doing tbings, or stops
controlling what he does, he loses a sense of identity.

The case you present below is interesting. I'll comment on it later if you
wish..

jappel2117.vcf (63 Bytes)

···

,

Recently, in a DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) case I am working on, I
have witnessed the disapperance of a child alter into an adult personality
after an abusive incident was completely described, discussed and
communicated to the adult through drawings. This child alter was suicidal
and seriously cut the person many times. The person has had to have numerous
stiches. The person was hospitalized five times from Christmas. It was so
strange to witness her sudden "disapperance" after completely controlling
and dominating the person for these several months.

In this case, the alter was created when the person was trapped in a very,
very abusive incident. She had no control over the abuse she received from
her mother in the afternoon and her father in the evening. The alter
literally disappeared when the experience of this incident was communicated
to the person. The person was experiencing body symptoms related to the
incident before the communication too place. Now, there are no more body
symptoms. The person remembers the experience now. It is a part of her
experience. She is now experiencing a "tidal wave of feelings" including
anger, sadness, disgust, embarassment as she is processing the experience.
Before the intergration, there were no such feelings, only body symptoms.

PCT talks about reorganization as the way in which a new control system is
made and unmade. Reorganization occurs when the error signals are big
enough, or lasts long enough or are widespread enough. In the case of DID,
the new organization which is the alter, remains disconnected from the other
parts of the personality. One way of resolving a conflict is to completely
separate the two parts which are in conflict. One part experiences the
parents as abusive. The other part does not. If a person is not
simultaneously aware of both parts, there is no conflict.

John,

Dick Robertson and I did some research on self-image from the view of PCT.
We looked at the self-image as part of a control system. It would be the
reference perception. If a person experiences himself/herself as different
than the self-image, an error signal is created, and the self-image control
system takes action to eliminate the error signal.

For example, suppose that someone, whose opinion you care about, said: John
Appel is a lazy guy because he doesn't do the necessary reading on PCT to
inform himself. Do you experience disagreement, or any kind of emotional
upset?(error signal) Would you take some kind of action which was designed
to reduce or eliminate the upset?

By the way, the studies Dick and I and some of Dick's students did was
recently published in a journal edited by Martin Taylor.

From this brief example, you see that a PCT approach is different than the

one you are taking. Your identity is not in the action which you take to
reduce or eliminate the upset. It is in the self-image which is part of the
control system.

Yes, I would be interested in hearing your comments about the case which I
briefly described.

Keep plugging away. (And I don't think you are lazy.)

David

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: bct and pct (From John Appel 7 Mar 99)
Date: 3/7/99

[Martin Taylor 990307 15:50]

From: David Goldstein

By the way, the studies Dick and I and some of Dick's students did was
recently published in a journal edited by Martin Taylor.

Correction: the issue isn't out yet. Probably April or May (and quite
possibly June) in the International Journal of Human-Computer Studies.

Martin