Behavioural Illusion (was Re: Incentives/Disincentives)

[Martin Taylor 2010.11.23.12.37]

[From Rick Marken (2010.11.23.0910)]

It's the existence of the controlled variable -- not the environment
event itself -- that determines whether an environmental event appears
to be an incentive, reinforcement or stimulus.

Yes.

  Seeing the
environmental event itself as having the ability to incent, reinforce,
stimulate or, for that matter, afford is simply to succumb to the
behavioral illusion: the illusion that environmental events cause
behavior.

I think you misconstrue the behavioural illusion -- or if you don't, I do.

My take on it is that in order to oppose the effect of a disturbance on the controlled perceptual variable, the output must be such that after the effect of the output has been transmitted through the environmental feedback path, it closely matches the disturbance magnitude, but has the opposite sign.

In symbolic form, we can write:

p = P(qi). For the sake of argument, let's take P to be the identity function, as is often done in these exercises, which gives
p = qi

Again for simplicity of writing, without losing generality, lets take the reference value of p to be zero.

If the output is qo, we can write the effect of the output through the environmental feedback path to be E(qo), so, if control is good
E(qo) = qd approximately.

From which, qo = E^-1(qd) where E^-1(.) is the inverse of the environmental feedback function.

The observed behaviour is qo. Many different internal structures might lead to the same degree of control, and therefore to the same behaviour, qo. My concept of the behavioural illusion is the illusion that the behaviour can be used to determine important aspects of the internal brain mechanisms, whereas in fact the behaviour is determined by the fact of control and the nature of the environmental feedback pathway.

Is that different from your idea of what constitutes the behavioural illusion?

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2010.11.23.1120)]

Martin Taylor (2010.11.23.12.37) --

From which, qo = E^-1(qd) where E^-1(.) is the inverse of the environmental
feedback function.

The observed behaviour is qo. Many different internal structures might lead
to the same degree of control, and therefore to the same behaviour, qo. My
concept of the behavioural illusion is the illusion that the behaviour can
be used to determine important aspects of the internal brain mechanisms,
whereas in fact the behaviour is determined by the fact of control and the
nature of the environmental feedback pathway.

Is that different from your idea of what constitutes the behavioural
illusion?

Nope, that's exactly my view of it (though without the "u":wink: When I
say that an incentive is an example of a behavioral illusion I mean
that it appears that the incentive causes behavior via the organism
while, in fact, the relation between incentive and behavior is
determined by the inverse of the feedback function (your E) connecting
behavior to controlled variable.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.1`1.24.0735 MD)]

Martin Taylor 2010.11.23.12.37 --

I think you misconstrue the behavioural illusion -- or if you don't, I do.

My take on it is that in order to oppose the effect of a disturbance on the controlled perceptual variable, the output must be such that after the effect of the output has been transmitted through the environmental feedback path, it closely matches the disturbance magnitude, but has the opposite sign.

Yes, I agree.

In symbolic form, we can write:

p = P(qi). For the sake of argument, let's take P to be the identity function, as is often done in these exercises, which gives
p = qi

Again for simplicity of writing, without losing generality, lets take the reference value of p to be zero.

Another way is to speak of delta-D and delta-qo. Or you could use partial derivativews.

If the output is qo, we can write the effect of the output through the environmental feedback path to be E(qo), so, if control is good
E(qo) = qd approximately.

From which, qo = E^-1(qd) where E^-1(.) is the inverse of the environmental feedback function.

Yes, though we also need a disturbance function in general, so in place of qd we would write D(qd). It's necessary to idenfity the controlled variable before either E or D can be determined.

The observed behaviour is qo. Many different internal structures might lead to the same degree of control, and therefore to the same behaviour, qo. My concept of the behavioural illusion is the illusion that the behaviour can be used to determine important aspects of the internal brain mechanisms, whereas in fact the behaviour is determined by the fact of control and the nature of the environmental feedback pathway. Is that different from your idea of what constitutes the behavioural illusion?

No, that's exactly it.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

The last post I have received from CSGNET was on Nov. 25. This is unusual. I miss it. And, I was even going to revisit the idea of the Twelfth Level. That’s a waste of time if nothing is being posted (probably any way). :sunglasses:

Is it something on my Internet end or is everyone dead?

[From Fred Nickols (2010.11.30.1239 MST)]

Not at all, Kenny; we’re all still here. It’s just that we have all managed to achieve perfect control over every variable we seek to control and so, with no error signal, there is no output.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshcoton Avenue - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

“Assistance at a Distance”

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:49 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Behavioural Illusion (was Re: Incentives/Disincentives)

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

The last post I have received from CSGNET was on Nov. 25. This is unusual. I miss it. And, I was even going to revisit the idea of the Twelfth Level. That’s a waste of time if nothing is being posted (probably any way). :sunglasses:

Is it something on my Internet end or is everyone dead?

Kenny, please initiate a thread on the 12th level because I have a candidate for the 13th that I hope will complete the set (at least for human PCT). I find it odd that this candidate is often treated as if it should be avoided at all costs.

Chad

Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems <KJKitzke@AOL.COM> 11/30/2010 1:49 PM >>>

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

The last post I have received from CSGNET was on Nov. 25. This is
unusual. I miss it. And, I was even going to revisit the idea of the Twelfth
Level. That's a waste of time if nothing is being posted (probably any way).
:sunglasses:

Is it something on my Internet end or is everyone dead?

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

Fred, you are amazing. I think you have nailed it!

I am certainly not in control. I am feeling error; big time. I just received in the mail my Medicare Supplement Health Insurance Plan for 2011. It is so disturbing. It’s full of new co-pays, higher co-pays even some co-insurance I have never seen before. To have a colonoscopy done, I need to take a $200 bill with me before I can put on my gown! I don’t know how I am going to survive. I need to do something. Perhaps getting on CSGNET will reduce my error and fear. I already sold my red 1995 BMW and that may not be enough.

Now, I hear my taxes may go up another $10 T or so in 2011. More disturbance. But, don’t worry about me. I am one of those $250T rich folks who can afford it. But, you know what? I imagine I am not going to sell my 1991 Miata too. Instead, I am going to lay off my receptionist. Business is so bad, she has little to do anyway. I know she’s a sweet and loyal employee and I was happy to give her a job. I know she is a single mom just trying to put food on the table for her three kids. But, I can’t carry her any longer when my abundance is being stripped away by greedy insurance companies and corrupt politicians lining their pockets with $137,000 salaries, huge pensions, luxurious offices, provided staff, and FREE health care fit for a king while voting their governments into bankruptcy unless we get the grand children to pay their bills.

Enough of that. Instead, I am going to relax, reorganize, and write some stuff about PCT on CSGNET and the Twelfth Level as though it might solve any real-world problem. Well, perhaps it will get me feeling in control of at least my perceptual world (to be more like you) so I can quit writing to CSGNET and just read and be aware of the widening gap between the rich and the poor or how birds behave.

OK. That should disturb some folks enough to act and start writing again on CSGNET to get back into control and take a well-intentioned break. 8-))

In a message dated 11/30/2010 2:41:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fred@NICKOLS.US writes:

···

[From Fred Nickols (2010.11.30.1239 MST)]

Not at all, Kenny; we’re all still here. It’s just that we have all managed to achieve perfect control over every variable we seek to control and so, with no error signal, there is no output.

Regards,

** Fred Nickols**

  • Managing Partner*

** Distance Consulting LLC**

1558 Coshcoton Avenue - Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050-5416

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

  • “Assistance at a Distance”*

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] ** On Behalf Of** Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:49 AM
To:
CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Behavioural Illusion (was Re: Incentives/Disincentives)

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

The last post I have received from CSGNET was on Nov. 25. This is unusual. I miss it. And, I was even going to revisit the idea of the Twelfth Level. That’s a waste of time if nothing is being posted (probably any way). :sunglasses:

Is it something on my Internet end or is everyone dead?

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30.18:00EST)]

OK, Chad. I’ll post something on the Twelfth Level just cause you asked and you have my imagination going wild about your still higher level. Yes, it’s an error you can help me reduce. Oh. BTW, could you use our conventional time stamp on CSGNET? It really disturbs some of the old timers to see the rules broken.

How humans control their Eleventh Level perceptions or establish their reference perceptions at that level are not always avoided. I realize you are rather new here. But there has been much water under the bridge on this over the years. It’s just that there is little or no experimental data to analyze at that level. It’s all speculation, including mine. How are you going to work on that when you are devoted to figuring out a PCT model for how the economic system works? If we had the time that Methuselah had, perhaps we could do both!

In a message dated 11/30/2010 3:06:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Chad.Green@LCPS.ORG writes:

···

Kenny, please initiate a thread on the 12th level because I have a candidate for the 13th that I hope will complete the set (at least for human PCT). I find it odd that this candidate is often treated as if it should be avoided at all costs.

Chad

Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM 11/30/2010 1:49 PM >>>
[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

The last post I have received from CSGNET was on Nov. 25. This is
unusual. I miss it. And, I was even going to revisit the idea of the Twelfth
Level. That’s a waste of time if nothing is being posted (probably any way).
:sunglasses:

Is it something on my Internet end or is everyone dead?

[From Rick Marken (2010.11.30.1830)]

Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

I am certainly not in control.� I am feeling error; big time.

Based on what you say below, this may be a good opportunity for you to
try to go up to become aware of your problems from that 12th level of
yours and revise some of those 11th level system concept goals.

Best

Rick

···

I just received in the mail my Medicare Supplement Health Insurance Plan
for 2011. It is so disturbing.� It's full of new co-pays, higher co-pays even some
co-insurance I have never seen before.� To have a colonoscopy done, I need
to take a $200 bill with me before I can put on my gown!� I don't know how I
am going to survive.� I need to do something.� Perhaps getting on CSGNET
will reduce my error and fear.� I already sold my red 1995 BMW and that may
not be enough.

Now, I hear my taxes may go up another $10 T or so in 2011.� More
disturbance.� But, don't worry about me.� I am one of those $250T rich folks
who can afford it.� But, you know what?� I imagine I am not going to sell my
1991 Miata too.� Instead, I am going to lay off my receptionist.� Business
is so bad, she has little to do anyway.� I know she's a sweet and loyal
employee and I was happy to give her a job.� I know she is a single mom
just�trying to put food on the table for her three kids.� But,�I can't carry
her any longer when my abundance is being stripped away by greedy insurance
companies and corrupt politicians lining their pockets with�$137,000
salaries, huge pensions, luxurious offices, provided staff,�and FREE health
care fit for a king while voting their governments into bankruptcy unless we
get the grand children to pay their bills.

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30.23:00EST)]

That is exactly what I do do. I am already feeling better and plan to sleep like a baby tonight. I doubt any of my changes will be what yours would be.

Doctor Rick, how about taking your own advice and medicine? Instead of fussing and writing about the wealth disparity you wail about on CSGNET, while most of the poor don’t, trying using your 12th Level to get working on some 11th Level that you can actually do something about like helping out the poor yourself?

I bet it would make you feel even better about your SELF.

In a message dated 11/30/2010 9:31:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rsmarken@GMAIL.COM writes:

···

[From Rick Marken (2010.11.30.1830)]

Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30)]

I am certainly not in control. I am feeling error; big time.

Based on what you say below, this may be a good opportunity for you to
try to go up to become aware of your problems from that 12th level of
yours and revise some of those 11th level system concept goals.

Best

Rick

I just received in the mail my Medicare Supplement Health Insurance Plan
for 2011. It is so disturbing. It’s full of new co-pays, higher co-pays even some
co-insurance I have never seen before. To have a colonoscopy done, I need
to take a $200 bill with me before I can put on my gown! I don’t know how I
am going to survive. I need to do something. Perhaps getting on CSGNET
will reduce my error and fear. I already sold my red 1995 BMW and that may
not be enough.

Now, I hear my taxes may go up another $10 T or so in 2011. More
disturbance. But, don’t worry about me. I am one of those $250T rich folks
who can afford it. But, you know what? I imagine I am not going to sell my
1991 Miata too. Instead, I am going to lay off my receptionist. Business
is so bad, she has little to do anyway. I know she’s a sweet and loyal
employee and I was happy to give her a job. I know she is a single mom
just trying to put food on the table for her three kids. But, I can’t carry
her any longer when my abundance is being stripped away by greedy insurance
companies and corrupt politicians lining their pockets with $137,000
salaries, huge pensions, luxurious offices, provided staff, and FREE health
care fit for a king while voting their governments into bankruptcy unless we
get the grand children to pay their bills.


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.12.01.0305 MDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30.18:00EST)

···

I think that proposing new levels can be useful. However, I hope you will
stick to the same principles that were used in constructing all the
existing ones. There are only two really important ones.

First, a perception of any level higher than the first must be a function
of perceptions of lower levels, and most likely the next lower level. An
example: what are configurations made of that are not just smaller
configurations? My answer: sensations.

Second, to control a perception of a given level, it is necessary (if
there is any error) to alter perceptions of the next lower level. So to
alter a configuration, it is necessary to alter sensations.

I think you will find that these principles hold true for all perceptions
as currently defined from levels 2 through 11. At least I tried to
accomplish that. That’s one reason it took so long.

Best,.

Bill P.

[From Chad Green (2010.12.01.14:37 EDT)]

I agree with Bill's first principle, however, I find the bottom-up approach of the second principle problematic above level 9 (i.e., you need a top-down approach to alter a level below). Level 13 confounds matters even more because of what I view as (a) the primacy of initial conditions and (b) the reorganization of the reorganizing system itself. More on that later.

Before I go further out on a limb, can somebody tell me if PCT resembles Figure 1 in this paper by Geoghegan and Pangaro: Design for a Self-regenerating Organization: Requisite Variety and Social Systems

The reason I ask is because I believe their Little Grey Book is a nice attempt at the 13th level:
http://www.pangaro.com/littlegreybook/index.html

Just replace the word "organization" with "individual" throughout the publication for the most part.

Cheers,
Chad

Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET> 12/1/2010 5:14 AM >>>

[From Bill Powers (2010.12.01.0305 MDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30.18:00EST) --

I think that proposing new levels can be useful. However, I hope you
will stick to the same principles that were used in constructing all
the existing ones. There are only two really important ones.

First, a perception of any level higher than the first must be a
function of perceptions of lower levels, and most likely the next
lower level. An example: what are configurations made of that are not
just smaller configurations? My answer: sensations.

Second, to control a perception of a given level, it is necessary (if
there is any error) to alter perceptions of the next lower level. So
to alter a configuration, it is necessary to alter sensations.

I think you will find that these principles hold true for all
perceptions as currently defined from levels 2 through 11. At least I
tried to accomplish that. That's one reason it took so long.

Best,.

Bill P.

(Gavin Ritz 2010.12.02.10.39NZT)

[From Chad Green (2010.12.01.14:37 EDT)]

Hi there Chad

Ashby’s
reconstructed feedback system is not the same as the PCT control system in
structure and in function. It is a feedback system though, using information as
the function and as structure a circular feedback model. It contains no reference
signal or comparator and no error signal. Also there is no Perceptual
Controlled Variable and no hierarchy of control. It’s not a control
system.

Plus PCT does not have
information as the function at all.

The articles by Pangaro
are rather interesting as he seem to be trying to reconstituted Stafford Beer’s
work with some modern touches, without even mentioning Beer. They either have
not read the classic Beer, the “Brain of the Firm” and “the Heart
of Enterprise“or choose to ignore it.

It seems he was at Brunel which
had the affiliated Brunel Institute of Social Studies (BIOSS) which developed Requisite
Organisation of which he makes no mention. The classic on leadership and organisation.

And no mention of Beer
who pioneered managerial cybernetics.

I think it’s not
such a great article rather old hat, with some modern touches.

A lot of anecdotal stuff
in the grey book and a lot of rehashed stuff.

It’s almost as if
these guys have not done a thorough research on organisational systems or
purposely don’t mention it.

If Sun Micro Systems falls
for that story (languaging) these guys are on to a money spinner.

Regards

Gavin

I agree with Bill’s first principle, however, I find the bottom-up approach of the
second principle problematic above level 9 (i.e., you need a top-down approach
to alter a level below). Level 13 confounds matters even more because of
what I view as (a) the primacy of initial conditions and (b) the reorganization
of the reorganizing system itself. More on that later.

Before I go further out on a limb, can somebody tell
me if PCT resembles Figure 1 in this paper by Geoghegan and Pangaro:
http://www.pangaro.com/ashby/index.html

The reason I ask is because I believe their Little
Grey Book is a nice attempt at the 13th level:

http://www.pangaro.com/littlegreybook/index.html

Just replace the word “organization” with
“individual” throughout the publication for the most part.

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Bill Powers
powers_w@FRONTIER.NET 12/1/2010 5:14 AM >>>

[From Bill Powers (2010.12.01.0305
MDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2010.11.30.18:00EST) –

I think that proposing new levels can be useful.
However, I hope you

will stick to the same principles that were used in
constructing all

the existing ones. There are only two really important
ones.

First, a perception of any level higher than the first
must be a

function of perceptions of lower levels, and most
likely the next

lower level. An example: what are configurations made
of that are not

just smaller configurations? My answer:
sensations.

Second, to control a perception of a given level, it
is necessary (if

there is any error) to alter perceptions of the next
lower level. So

to alter a configuration, it is necessary to alter sensations.

I think you will find that these principles hold true
for all

perceptions as currently defined from levels 2 through
11. At least I

tried to accomplish that. That’s one reason it took so
long.

Best,.

Bill P.