[From Rick Marken (940211.0930)]
Bill Powers (940210.1100 MST) --
Rick Marken has been trying to explain why an identical
disturbance replayed does lead to worse control. What he has
failed to mention is that...the disturbance is not generated
in the same way in the two cases.
I did. But thanks for explaining why it works
So the first experiment shows different effects being produced by
the same cause, and the second shows the same effect being
produced by different causes.
Both studies are described in "Mind readings", chapter 3.
Exactly the same
cursor position could result from an infinity of different
combinations of handle position and disturbance magnitude. This
is what makes it hard for me to understand how cursor position,
or the perceptual signal representing it, could contain any
information about either the disturbance or the output.
Of course it is hard for me to understand this too. I think,
however, that we are not really supposed to understand it; we are
just supposed to believe it. The argument seems to be that if
control happens, then there MUST be information about the disturbance
in the controlled perceptual variable or control couldn't happen (never
mind that we already know how control happens, and that it has nothing
to do with information in perception).
There's no point in asking what PCT has to say about randomly
collected facts of behavior if you have no reason to believe that
they are facts. And that is true of just about everything that
has been said about human behavior to date.
This is probably THE most important (and controversial) aspect of PCT.
It is not a conclusion that comes from the PCT model itself; rather, it
is an attitude (that many people don't seem to share, even though they
accept the PCT model of behavior) about what constitutes a "fact" and what
constitutes an explanation thereof. I (personally) don't think one can
fully appreciate the PCT model until one adopts this attitude toward facts
and models. But, then, I'm the Barry Goldwater of PCT -- you know,
extremist and all that.
There are many reasons why PCT has made little or no headway among
conventional psychologists. But probably the number 1 reason
is that PCT rejects not only the current theories of conventional
psychology -- it rejects MOST of the current "facts" as well.
This tends to make conversations with conventional psychologists a
bit, ah, strained.
Bill Leach (940210.18:50EST) --
Government is evil...
Less evil than anarchy but still, if
left to itself, fundamentally evil!!
OK, I'll bite. Why is government "fundamentally evil"?
I think govenment (in PCT) is a system level perception -- slightly
different for each person, of course, but controlled (maintained
at some reference level) as a way of maintaining cooperative
relationships with other control systems (people). I think that
"government" is a perception that, for most people, is likely to differ
considerably from its reference specification. After all, "government",
like all perceptions, is a VARIABLE. Moreover, the value of this
variable depends, to a large extent, on the activities of other people
who are controlling perceptions of what they call "government". "Govenment"
is a perception that exists because groups of control systems control for
it. It is also very likely that each person who is controlling
for "government" is controlling a slightly different perceptual variable.
And even when people's perceptions of "govenment" are relatively similar,
these perceptions are being maintained at different reference levels
(some people want "more" and some want "less" "government" -- suggesting
the existence of a higher order system that specifies the level of
"government" to be perceived in order to control some other perception;
why do people control for "more" or "less" government?). This suggests to
me that "government" is likely to be a perception that, for most people, is
rarely near it's reference level. So the "government" control system in
one's brain will probably be a source of chronic error. I suppose that, in
this sense, "government" is evil -- but there is not something "out there"
called "government" that is actually trying to hurt us. "Government"
(according to PCT, I think) is a perceptual variable that is difficult
to control. When we recognize this fact about "govenment" and understood WHY
we try to control this perception it might be possible to achieve
(individually, of course) better control of our perception of "government".
Best
Rick