Buddhism and conflict

[from Tracy B. Harms (2008-04-22 05:52 Pacific)]

Bill Powers (2008.04.22.0232 MDT) wrote:

Religion, like many other
things people turn to, is a form of
psychotherapy because it
addresses mainly psychological problems
of being human and living
together.

Close, but isn't psychotherapy the Johnny-come-lately
one here?

...
In the East, I expect that it's much the same,
except that the
emphasis is more on seeking the good rather than
avoiding the evil.
That still amounts to taking one side of a conflict
and trying to
suppress the other. And the head-on approach doesn't
work any better
over there than it does over here

As for Buddhism in particular, I disagree deeply. At
this moment I do not have time to elaborate, but I
must mention that I have recently (over only the past
few months) been deeply moved by Buddhism precisely
because I found there a tremendously thorough vision
that conflict is not to be handled like that. Indeed,
I must and do credit PCT with preparing me to be
capable of appreciating what I encounter in Zen.

Tracy

···

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[From Bill Powers (2008.04.22.0811 MDT)]

Tracy B. Harms (2008-04-22 05:52 Pacific) --

Bill Powers (2008.04.22.0232 MDT) wrote:

> Religion, like many other
> things people turn to, is a form of
> psychotherapy because it
> addresses mainly psychological problems
> of being human and living
> together.

Close, but isn't psychotherapy the Johnny-come-lately
one here?

Certainly. And PCT and MOL are even Johnnier-come-laterly.

> In the East, I expect that it's much the same,
> except that the
> emphasis is more on seeking the good rather than
> avoiding the evil.
> That still amounts to taking one side of a conflict
> and trying to
> suppress the other. And the head-on approach doesn't
> work any better
> over there than it does over here

As for Buddhism in particular, I disagree deeply.

OK. Not having gone through the training, I wouldn't really know. But do most Buddhists go through the training? I think not, just as very few Christians go to seminaries or join monasteries or convents. However, I don't have to be right about this. I do wonder why it is that people in Buddhist countries seem just as capable of nastiness, despair, or confusion as any other people are.

At this moment I do not have time to elaborate, but I
must mention that I have recently (over only the past
few months) been deeply moved by Buddhism precisely
because I found there a tremendously thorough vision
that conflict is not to be handled like that. Indeed,
I must and do credit PCT with preparing me to be
capable of appreciating what I encounter in Zen.

So perhaps Buddhism does a lot more with exploring and resolving conflicts than Western approaches do. I'll take your word for it.

However, I do suggest that whatever is working for you in Buddhism, the changes you experience are produced entirely by your own reorganizing system, and by directing it to the places that are causing whatever problems may be involved rather than the places where the symptoms show up. I think that principle applies to all forms of therapy, enlightenment, blessedness, and so forth. It doesn't matter whether you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, or a Freudian; God is within you.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Keith Daniels (2008.04.22.1006 PDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2008.04.22.0811 MDT)]

OK. Not having gone through the training, I wouldn't really know. But
do most Buddhists go through the training? I think not, just as very
few Christians go to seminaries or join monasteries or convents.
However, I don't have to be right about this. I do wonder why it is
that people in Buddhist countries seem just as capable of nastiness,
despair, or confusion as any other people are.

You have a very valid point here Bill. As I may have mentioned, I am married
to a wonderfully beautiful MD from Thailand, an "official" Buddhist country.
When I met her, I was a practicing Buddhist and she was attending a
Presbyterian church. (I've always thought that was funny). I was so excited
to visit Thailand for the first time and was quite shocked when I did
because my take on Buddhism was so far off from what was going on in this
Buddhist country. The vast majority of people don't really practice
Buddhism, just as the vast majority of people in the US probably don't go to
church on a regular basis, even though this is a "Christian" country.

Buddhism is more of a social/cultural institution than a religious one and
it's probably only the forest monks and ascetics that practice what I was
more familiar with. I was quite disappointed that I was unable to go to a
Thai temple and hear sermons or Dharma talks... mostly the temples were for
social gatherings, etc... I suspect that's the same in Japan... as the
few times actual Japanese Zen monks came to the Buddhist monastery in New
York to practice with us, they were shocked that we actually sat (in
meditation) as long as we did. I think the vast majority of Japanese people
  also view Buddhism from a social/cultural/historical/ viewpoint and aren't
really practitioners of Zen.

That being said, even those who do go to Temple/meditate regularly or attend
Pure Land or other Buddhist sect temples/churches are just as prone to
human folly as any one else. The Catholic church's acceptance of the Nazi
Holocaust (or at least their lack of action against it) and the Japanese Zen
/Buddhist communities participation/support of the War effort in World War
II are just more examples of how the institutions of religion can be as
dysfunctional/evil/nasty as the any human can be. Someone's professed
religious belief, doesn't at all tell me much about the goodness or mental
health of that person... that can only come from observation..

I was required to be in individual counseling during my graduate studies and
my first experience with it was that it felt very much like a "spiritual"
process. I have no doubt that religion is also (or at least, can be) a
method toward better mental health..... And just as many psychotherapeutic
techniques may be less than helpful or even harmful... so can relgious
beliefs, for example the current world problems that I believe are rooted in
religious fundamentalism.

However, I do suggest that whatever is working for you in Buddhism,
the changes you experience are produced entirely by your own
reorganizing system, and by directing it to the places that are
causing whatever problems may be involved rather than the places
where the symptoms show up. I think that principle applies to all
forms of therapy, enlightenment, blessedness, and so forth. It
doesn't matter whether you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, or
a Freudian; God is within you.

We're in complete agreement here.

Best wishes,

Keith

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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:26:03 -0600, Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET> wrote: