Cannonical Consumer

[From Bill Williams UMKC 11 November 20002 2:00AM CST]

Rick,

Here is another of Battalio's papers.

"INcome-Leisure tradeoffs of Animal Workers" American Economic REview
vol 71 # 4 SEpt 1981 p. 621-32.

There is quite a lot a material on the Giffen effect. Nearly all of the
papers in the previous posting include "Giffen" in the title. If the
selection is relaxed to include papers which consider the possiblity of a
GIffen effect the listing would be huge. But, I have doubts about how much
of this stuff is worth reading. Yes, many of the people have an intuitive
notion that calories must be somehow controlled. But, almost none of them
are willing to consider giving up on the standard orthodox analysis.

I recently found a paper by Herbert Simon,

"On the Application of Servomechanism THeory in the STudy of Production
Control." 1952 Econometrica vol 20 # 2 April 1952 p. 247-68.

Consider a statement by Robert M. Solow ( MIT faculty and NObel prize
winner ) made in 1975.

  "If... the whole supply-and-demand appratus is thought to miss the boat,
then it would be useful if some one would produce a workable alternative.."
p. 51.

Quarterly JOurnal of Economics, vol 89 # 1 pp 48-52.

  THere is another quote by Robert Bork which expresses basically the idea
from a somewhat different angle,

    "A simple and fundamental principle of economics is that if the
     price of anything is raised, less of it will be purchased.
     ......
    "If anybody could show that this is not so, he would achieve
     imortality in history by destroying a centuries-old foundational
     principle of economics." p. 271.

from _Sloughing toward Gomorrah_ new york: Harper collins

If only it were as easy as Bork describes it. But, the current wave of
enthusiasm may provide an window of opportunity into which control theory
may be able to attract attention that might otherwise not be possible.

bset

bill Wililams

[From Rick Marken (2002.11.11.0910)]

Bill Williams (UMKC 11 November 20002 2:00AM CST)

Consider a statement by Robert M. Solow ( MIT faculty and NObel prize
winner ) made in 1975.

  "If... the whole supply-and-demand appratus is thought to miss the boat,
then it would be useful if some one would produce a workable alternative.."
p. 51.

Quarterly JOurnal of Economics, vol 89 # 1 pp 48-52.

  THere is another quote by Robert Bork which expresses basically the idea
from a somewhat different angle,

    "A simple and fundamental principle of economics is that if the
     price of anything is raised, less of it will be purchased.
     ......
    "If anybody could show that this is not so, he would achieve
     imortality in history by destroying a centuries-old foundational
     principle of economics." p. 271.

from _Sloughing toward Gomorrah_ new york: Harper collins

These quotes are great. The Bork quote is particularly pertinent. I hope you use
it as the lead-in to your article on a control model of consumer behavior, the one
that proves that this fundamental principle is "not so".

If only it were as easy as Bork describes it.

Indeed. People love the idea of scientific revolutions and paradigm shifts. They
just don't like the real thing. I think this is because real scientific
revolutions and paradigm shifts move our beliefs closer to actual rather than
desired truth.

Best regards

Rick

···

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Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bill Powers (2002.11.11.1413 MST)]

Bill Williams UMKC 11 November 2002 2:00AM CST --

   THere is another quote by Robert Bork which expresses basically the idea

from a somewhat different angle,

    "A simple and fundamental principle of economics is that if the
     price of anything is raised, less of it will be purchased.
     ......
    "If anybody could show that this is not so, he would achieve
     imortality in history by destroying a centuries-old foundational
     principle of economics." p. 271.

This would seem a good point at which to insert the wedge. It's obviously a
false statement, once you back away from the context in which it's
customarily understood -- meaning, once you get outside the purely economic
context, as your treatment of the Giffen effect does. Clearly, if your life
depends on buying a certain amount of something, you will buy it at any
price, no matter what else you may have to give up, no matter what laws you
have to break, no matter what false promises to pay you must make. The
normal rules of economics cease to prevail when values other than monetary
values are considered.

The Bible contains (somewhere) this nice up-a-level question: "If the salt
lose its savor, with what will ye salt it?" This phrase stuck in my mind
because I didn't get it at first (it's still not crystal clear). It was
meant to convey, I think, that some qualities are valued because they
enhance the value of other things. But what gives _them_ their value? Salt
is valued because of the way it makes other things taste to us human
beings, not because of what it is, NaCl, or how it tastes by itself. But if
salt becomes unable to give us the tastes we prefer, what can we use to
give it back that property? Salt? Obviously not.

The same thing applies to money (or anything else outside us) that we use
as a measure of value. The ultimate value of anything is that it can be
used as a means of obtaining things we want or need, for ourselves or for
others whose welfare we consider important. If that value is lost, the
thing itself loses its value.

Under proper conditions, money (or credit) can be used to get things we
value, but it often happens that in order to use money to obtain what we
want, we must give up something else that we want just as much or even more
-- for example, we must give up 40 hours per week of our labor, which is
used for someone else's benefit and prevents us from using our own
activities for our own direct benefit during that period, not to mention
taking away the ability to enjoy any benefits of what we may already
possess for that period. The well-known example is the upscale middle
manager who is raking in the money by working 80 hours a week, and is too
exhausted even to watch TV when not working. His money has lost its value
to him.

What I'm getting at, slowly and not very surely, is that the wedge has to
do not with the Giffen effect specifically, but with the conflict of values
that gives rise to the Giffen effect. The simulation I just distributed,
while not the only one that would illustrate the effect, lends itself to
generalization. We could set up a system with some indefinite number of
goods, each with a reference level and a control system with gain.
Circumstances can always exist in which obtaining one good, or combination
of goods, interferes with obtaining another good or combination of goods.
Even if money is not itself treated as a good, I think there can still be a
Giffen effect, in which difficulties in obtaining one good result in
greater efforts to get it, at the expense of efforts to get other things --
the path of most resistance, instead of the more common way of taking the
easiest path.

And, to bring in the "salt" idea, the "goods" that result in conflicts are
not all the economic type. I suspect that behind most economic difficulties
there are values for things that are neither material goods nor services --
for example, the value of playing with a child for half an hour. This can't
be traded, bought, or sold; "indifference curves" are irrelevant. There is
nothing else of equal value because there is nothing else of the same
_kind_ of value. It can't be translated into an equivalent value, say, in
units of high bowling scores or taste of juicy steaks -- or money. We want
to spend time with a child AND -- not OR -- do other things we value.

The simulation just distributed represents a person who wants to eat a
certain number of calories every day, AND AT THE SAME TIME save a certain
amount of money for future use. Under certain circumstances, it becomes
impossible to do both of these things. In the range where it is possible,
the only way to do it is to buy more of the less expensive food and less of
the more expensive food when the price of the less expensive food rises.
This is not a conflict: it is the _resolution_ of a conflict. As it
happens, this resolution is not perfect; the person can't eat quite as much
as wanted, and can't save quite as much money as wanted. With some
adjustments to the model, both might become possible (your graphical
solution suggests that this is true). But bring in a third preference, and
a fourth, and so on, and the best we can hope for is probably minimization
of total error, rather than total error correction. And then I think we may
well observe NOTHING BUT the Giffen effect, provided that we lack the
resources needed to accomplish everything we want at the same time. Any
stress on the system could force us into choosing what is cheaper,
shoddier, less reliable, less valuable.

So that's my pitch for trying to generalize the Giffen effect to multiple
variables. When we do, I suspect we'll be looking not at some special rare
effect, but at the way economics works for the vast majority of us, all but
the most affluent members of a society who never run out of money.

···

===============================

A word about obesity. I think this has been recognized, in some examples at
least, as a sort of nutritional Giffen effect. Food has to contain not just
calories, but vitamins, minerals, protein, fiber, and so on. You can go to
the grocery store and buy breakfast cereal that is touted as containing
100% of most the these things, as well as very small percentages of things
we're told we should not eat. However, it costs a lot more than just plain
old corn flakes. So if you have a certain budget for breakfast cereal, and
at the same time a desire for health, you may well find that if the calorie
count of corn-flakes goes down, you have to buy more cornflakes and less of
the more nutritional food, even if they cost the same per calorie.

People get fat in poor countries not simply because they eat too much, but
because in order to get enough vitamins, minerals, proteins, etc. and also
enough calories, they have to eat a little expensive high-value food and a
lot of cheap carbohydrates. They have to take in too many calories in order
to get almost enough of the other things..If the price of cheap food goes
up, they have to buy more of it and less of the other kind of food. So they
get fatter still.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2002.11.11.2020)]

Bill Powers (2002.11.11.1413 MST)

The Bible contains (somewhere) this nice up-a-level question: "If the salt
lose its savor, with what will ye salt it?" ...

This is one of the finest scientific essays I have ever read. Beautiful. So
sayeth thy (often obstreperous) monkey.

But bring in a third preference, and
a fourth, and so on, and the best we can hope for is probably minimization
of total error, rather than total error correction. And then I think we may
well observe NOTHING BUT the Giffen effect, provided that we lack the
resources needed to accomplish everything we want at the same time. Any
stress on the system could force us into choosing what is cheaper,
shoddier, less reliable, less valuable.

Yes. This is similar to the suggestion I made in an earlier post. I predicted
that we would see some Giffen-type demand curves (increasing consumption with
increasing cost) as well as "normal" demand curves (decreasing consumption
with increasing cost) with varying elasticity (slope). What demand curves we
see will depend, I believe, on the goals that the canonical consumer wants (or
needs) to achieve by consuming and what disturbances (variations in cost,
income) exist in the environment.

So that's my pitch for trying to generalize the Giffen effect to multiple
variables.

I've got your model set up in a spreadsheet and I will try to show some of
these generalizations. Your model, by the way, is nearly the same as mine; I
just had one system controlling cost rather than savings. I like the savings
approach better; it makes more sense.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Bill Powers (2002.11.12.0543 MST)]

Rick Marken (2002.11.11.2020)--

>I've got your model set up in a spreadsheet and I will try to show some of

these generalizations. Your model, by the way, is nearly the same as mine; I
just had one system controlling cost rather than savings. I like the savings
approach better; it makes more sense.

I confess to sneaking that in as a fragment of the "Test Bed" program. The
word "savings" could be simply "bank account," since its main function is
to allow non-synchronized cash transfers to take place.

Note that the calorie control system controls calories per day. An
integrator (leaky) is required in this loop to stabilize it -- it's in the
output function, with the slowing factor set for quickest action. In the
savings loop the savings account provides an integrator, so the rest of the
loop can be proportional. In general, each loop in a simulation needs to
have just one integration in it somewhere, to be unconditionally stable.

There's another possible model which says that the savings control system
acts to control savings through working, and thus providing income to make
up for the disturbances of savings caused by spending the money on food.
This would be better in a macro model, though, because individuals
generally do not have the option of working just enough to keep their
savings topped off -- most people either have a job or they don't, so
income is more or less a constant -- at least it's not infinitely variable
day by day.

A question for Bill Williams: if the Giffen effect were an important part
of the economy, what would producers have to do to take it into account?
Perhaps a different question would be, how would producers take advantage
of this effect to increase their profits?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Abbott (2002.11.12.0900 EST)]

[Bill Powers (2002.11.11.1413 MST) --

The simulation just distributed represents a person who wants to eat a
certain number of calories every day, AND AT THE SAME TIME save a certain
amount of money for future use. Under certain circumstances, it becomes
impossible to do both of these things. In the range where it is possible,
the only way to do it is to buy more of the less expensive food and less of
the more expensive food when the price of the less expensive food rises.
This is not a conflict: it is the _resolution_ of a conflict. As it
happens, this resolution is not perfect; the person can't eat quite as much
as wanted, and can't save quite as much money as wanted. With some
adjustments to the model, both might become possible (your graphical
solution suggests that this is true).

Some years ago Bill Timberlake and Jim Allison of Indiana University
proposed what they called the "response deprivation" analysis to explain
data from the type of experiments pioneered by David Premack. A typical
experiment begins with a "paired baseline phase, in which a rat has the
opportunity to engage freely in two monitored behaviors, such as
wheel-running and drinking from a water tube. The proportion of session
time spent in each activity is noted, and then the animal is placed in a
"contingency phase." In a contingency phase, the rat is required to engage
in a certain amount of one activity (the "instrumental response") in order
to have access to a certain amount of the other activity (the "contingent
response"). For example, the rat might be required to spend one minute
licking water from the drinking tube in order to earn two minutes of time
running in the running wheel. (Completing the required drinking releases a
brake on the running wheel for one minute of running). A typical result
might look like this:
                         Drinking Running
Paired baseline .05 .25
Congingency .10 .20

In this example, the rat spent 5% of the session drinking and 25% running
when it could freely engage in either behavior. However, during the
contingency phase, it increased the percentage of time it spent drinking,
and ended up running a bit less.

In the contingency phase, if the rat had spent the same percentage of time
drinking as it had in the paired-baseline phase (5%), the opportunity to
run would have been limited to 10% of session time because of the 1:2
contingency ratio. Thus, by running its preferred amount of time (as
estimated from paired baseline performance), it would have been "deprived"
of running time, in that it would have been constrained to run less than
its preferred amount.

According to the response deprivation analysis, if engaging in the
preferred amount of the instrumental response results in the animal being
deprived of its preferred amount of the contingent response, the animal
will increase the amount of the instrumental response so as to reduce the
amount of deprivation of the contingent response.

It doesn't matter which behavior is used as the instrumental response or
contingent response; if the contingency results in a condition of "response
deprivation" of the contingent response, the instrumental response will
increase over baseline amounts during the contingency phase.

As I see it, the contingency phase links two controlled variables together
in such a way that a virtual reference emerges as the resulting system
comes to equilibrium between the opposing actions of the two linked
systems. Bill, is this similar to the scenario you describe in the quoted
material above?

Bruce A.

[From Bill Williams UMKC 12 November 2002 11:30 AM PST]

First, see my email without heading.

Then: If I remember it correctly, a monopolist has an incentive to increase
sales up to the point where increasing the marginal net revenue from an
additional sale falls to zero. It is assumed that sales decrease when the price
increases. However, if consumer demeand increases with an increasing price for
the good, the seller would have an incentive to increase the price charged. The
higher the price the more units which can be expected to be sold. THis would be
true up to the point at which something in the system breaks down, or further
price increases do not generate increasing sales.

Economists haven't spent much time considering such a case.

In the attachment I've drawn the usual simplified depiction that a monopoly
seller faces. THe green circle represents the point of maximizing revenue for a
case in which costs are zero, the white circle the point for costs represented
by the green line. THe monopolists rational behavior can be reconstructed by
starting with the consideration that as long as an extra sale results in more
net income to the seller the seller will increase sales. This corresponds to
the standard treatment provided in Micro-economics texts-- unless that is I've
forgotten something or made some mistake.

I recently encountered an article which gave serious consideration to whether a
monopolistic seller in a captive market might in the context of a Giffen
efrfect increase the price charged _in order to increase sales_. The author was
doubtful but didn't entirely rule it out.

Bill Willialms

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