Can't get no respect

[From Rick Marken (940414.1245)]

Dag Forssell (940414 1030) --

I appreciate that you have now retracted all of your unfounded accusations.

I have no idea what "unfounded accusations" I made. It would be much easier
for me to deal with this if you told me what accusations I made that were
unfounded and why they were unfounded. Then I could see how I retracted them
and why that was a good idea.

I also think it is creepy towards others, however, to fail to
respect their autonomy as living control systems, whatever their
systems concepts, and to state insulting things as "facts" about
them based wholly or only in small part on your own imagination.

Notice the difference between your plea for respect and mine; I said:

If you respected me as a control system, you would presume my "tactlessness"
was an accident, you would understand that I was trying to control for
standards that might be wrong from your perspective but are legitimate, and
you would deal with me by helping me understand the error of my ways.

You say that my respect for your would be shown by not "insulting" you. An
insult is a disturbance to a perception; ignoring for the nonce the problem
of knowing what would constitute an insult to you, by NOT insulting you I am
eliminating your need to correct for the disturbance; in other words, I show
respect to you by trying to control your perceptions FOR YOU. You ask me to
do this despite the fact that this request might be insulting to me; I'm
insulted by your claim that you insulted me. Are you planning to respect me
in the same way you want me to respect you?

All I ask (in term's of respect) is cooperation to help us find agreement. I
can't ask you not to insult me -- there is no way you could possibly know
what an insult to me might be; I'm controlling my perceptions, not you. All
you have to do is respect the fact that I am controlling and see if we can
work out cooperative ways to control in the same environment. In order to do
that, we have to try to figure out what we are controlling for; where the
conflicts lie, etc. I don't want you to have to pussy foot around, trying not
to disturb every damn thing I'm controlling, most of which you could not
possibly even know about. How can I ask you to do that? If I said I was
insulted by you and you didn't think what you did should have insulted me,
wouldn't you be insulted by my suggestion? The only respect I (or anyone
else, for that matter) can ask for (and get) is understanding -- for you to
try to respect my controlling as legitimate, not a personal affront to you;
and, of course, I take your controlling in the same spirit. We'll work it
out; don't worry. I do respect you -- in MY way. I don't believe anybody can
be respectful to anyone else in yours (not to be disrespectful about it).

Blurting out unfounded accusations is very much within your control

Only if I can perceive them. I did not perceive any unfounded accusations;
so if you would like me to consider not blurting out such accusations
you have to help me know what YOU perceived as my unfounded accusations.



[From Rick Marken (950828.1400)]

Bill Powers (950828.1112 MDT) to me --

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Ed. Don't go away.

Of course I won't really go away. Ed's comments didn't upset me for the same
reason that your comments didn't upset Ed. Ed respects you. So when you
question or criticize aspects of Ed's program, Ed doesn't see it as abusive.
I respect Ed so when he criticizes my comments I don't see it as abusive.

Ed himself (Ed Ford (950827.daytime)) explained how PCT can help us interact
harmoniously with each other on the net:

Respect for others allows for honest interaction while maintaining harmony
among friends.

I agree with this completely and enthusiastically.

But I think PCT also shows that it is important to distinguish HAVING respect
FOR others from DEMANDING respect FROM others. The former does, indeed, allow
honest, harmoniuous interaction; the latter allows only dishonesty and
racor. Having respect for others is voluntarily and non-coercive; you just
respect people. Demanding respect from others is involuntary and coercive; if
other people don't behave in a way that is perceived as respectful, the
inclination is to make them behave respectfully; to control their behavior.

Ed often says that PCT teaches us to respect the autonomy of other people. I
think it is also important to remember that PCT teaches us that it is not
such a hot idea to DEMAND the respect of other people. Demanding respect
is just another way of saying "behavior modification"; when you demand
respect you are demanding a particular kind of behavior -- behavior that
is perceived (by the "demander") as respectful.

Right after the quote above, Ed Ford (950827.daytime) continues with:

That's what I expect from those in the CSG.

I'm worry that "expectation" can shade too easily into "demand". I believe
that the interactions on this net are typically very honest and harmonious
and I think this is because we all ASSUME (not expect or demand) that we
respect each other.

Bill Powers (950828.1112 MDT) to Darlene Todd (950827) --

I hope Rick Marken replies to you

I will reply ASAP. But I think it would be nice if the renegade EABers (Bruce
Abbott, Samuel Spence Saunders, and Dennis Delprato) could reply first.