climate control: Does the climate have a thermostat or governor?

[Martin Lewitt 28 May 2010 0534 MDT]

I saw a presentation at the International Conference on Climate Change describing a proposed governor on the climate system to explain the long term stability of the earth's temperature. I thought it might be of interest here, so I waited for the video to be posted. Unfortunately, there is not a direct shortcut to the video. It is the talk by Willis Eschenbach, in the first column, 9 rows down. I thought the way he used the GOES West satellite to support his hypothesis was particularly clever.

http://www.heartland.org/environmentandclimate-news.org/ClimateConference4

Here is the corresponding power point presentation, so you can get a better look at the slides:

http://www.heartland.org/events/2010Chicago/PowerPoints/Tuesday%20-%20Session%204/Track%202%20-%20Science%202/Willis_Eschenbach.ppt

regards,
     Martin L

[From Rick Marken (2010.05.28.2340)]

Martin Lewitt (28 May 2010 0534 MDT)--

I saw a presentation at the International Conference on Climate Change
describing a proposed governor on the climate system to explain the
long term stability of the earth's temperature. �I thought it might be of
interest here, so I waited for the video to be posted.

I think the relative stability of climate variables, like temperature,
over eons, despite transient disturbances, may be the result of the
same kind of process that keeps a mass on a spring in a constant
position, despite transient disturbances. In the case of the mass on
a spring it is the restoring force of the spring and the force of
gravity that brings the mass back to it's original position after a
disturbance (like a downward pull on the mass). Another possibility is
that the stability of variables like CO2 and O2 levels is a side
effect of the controlling done by the bazillions of organisms on the
earth that are controlling the levels of these chemicals for
themselves.

It seems very unlikely that there is some kind huge invisible control
system that is keeping climatic variables relatively constant.
Stability in the face of transient disturbance is not enough to prove
that a variable is under control. If monitored over a long period of
time, for example, it could look like the position of the mass on the
spring is controlled since it returns to its nominal position after a
transient disturbance and remains there until the next disturbance. A
trace of the position of the position of the mass over time could look
a lot like the trace of Scotese or Veizer temperatures as plotted in
slide 4 of the Eschenbach PowerPoint presentation. The thunderstorms
that Eschenbach describes as governors (control systems) are more
likely to be functioning like the restoring force of the spring in the
mass-spring system.

What you have to do to determine whether some climatic variable is
actually under control is some version of The Test for the Controlled
Variable. Here are the steps of the Test, as described in Phil
Runkel's book "People as Living Things":

1.Select a variable you think is under control.

2.Predict effect of disturbance if the variable is not under control

3.Apply various amounts and direction of disturbance.

4.Measure the actual effects of the disturbances.

5.If effects are what were predicted in 2 then variable is not
controlled; return to 1.

6.If effects are much smaller than expected then look for cause of
opposition to disturbance.

7.Also look for way in which the variable is sensed

8.Test possible sensor by blocking it. If control is maintained then
return to 7.

9.If all preceding steps are passed, you have found the controlled variable.

Obviously, it would be tough to do this with climatic variable but
perhaps it could be done using naturally occurring disturbances and
modeling.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2010.05.30.22.12]

[Martin Lewitt 28 May 2010 0534 MDT]

I saw a presentation at the International Conference on Climate Change describing a proposed governor on the climate system to explain the long term stability of the earth's temperature. ...

The question is whether there are control systems involved. Rick suggested that the stability is more of the nature of the stability of a spring, and suggested ways of looking to see whether control was involved, using "The Test" for the controlled variable. I have no real problem with what Rick suggests, but "The Test" as he describes it necessarily starts with a guess about what variable might be controlled. In a system with possibly thousands of controlled variables (or none), it would be very hard to use "The Test" as Rick describes it.

One of the characteristics of a system such as a mass hanging from a spring, which resists attempts to disturb its height is that the energy of restoration is derived directly from the disturbance. One of the characteristics of control is that the energy of restoration is derived quite independently of the disturbance. In the case of climate, what is a disturbance? Does its effect on your variable of interest cause less change than you had reason to expect? Is the reduction of effect due to some influence whose energy source is different from the immediate effect of the disturbance?

In the case of the climate, these questions are difficult, because there are only two energy sources on the earth, the Sun and nuclear fission (one day we may add nuclear fusion, but not yet). The energy available from nuclear fission is negligible, so we need concern ourselves only with the energy from the Sun. The energy from fossil fuel derived from the Sun's radiation hundreds of millions of years ago, but it is nevertheless derived from the Sun. So, since all the energy in the possible disturbances and all the energy used to counter them (if any) derives from the Sun, could we say that there is any possibility of control systems existing in the network of feedback processes that influence the climate? I would say "yes, there is that possibility", because of the time differential between the various times when the Sun's energy arrived and was stored. The disturbance of increasing CO2 may well be energized by the Sun, but it is energized by the Sun of hundreds of millions of years ago, and if it is countered by anything, that thing is energized by the Sun of now (or of the more recent past). I think it is legitimate to consider energy derived from the same source at different times as being from two different sources.

Now we ask questions 2 and 4 of Rick's list taken from Phil Runkel's book:

2.Predict effect of disturbance if the variable is not under control

4.Measure the actual effects of the disturbances.

In the case of CO2 disturbance, it seems that the effect on global temperature is appreciably less than would be predicted, so there is at least the possibility that there is control. But there is also the possibility of spring-like resistance, using negative feedback without control.

This leads to another distinctive property of control, as opposed to a simple negative feedback loop: asymmetry.

A control loop has a distinctive asymmetry, in that the power supplied to the input side of the control loop is less than the power supplied by the output, usually by many order of magnitude. A generalized negative feedback loop has no such asymmetry, but it can stabilize the values of several variables within the loop. Only a control loop will specifically stabilize one specific value within it, namely what we call the perceptual value. The specific stabilization of this one variable is due to the asymmetry.

Usually the perceptual value is a function of some external variables, so that specific function of those variables is also stabilized, which means that if the perceptual value is a function of only one external variable, that external variable is as closely stabilized by control as is the perceptual variable.

So, in connection with the climate, we have to ask whether the reduced effect of the CO2 disturbance as compared with the naively calculated effect is due to simple negative feedback such as "increased temperature leads to increased evaporation from the oceans leads to more cloud cover leads to less sun energy reaching the gound" or to control. If control, as Rick points out, one has to determine what is sensed and stabilized. My own inclination (purely intuitive and with no foundation in data) is to think that the reason temperature is not increasing as fast as would be expected simply from the physically computable greenhouse effect of increased CO2 is simple negative feedback loops, not control, though I have no doubt that the side-effects of individual control loops have a very strong influence on the climate, both by augmenting the disturbance and in mitigating its effects.

It is those control loops contributing to the disturbance that must be altered if the world is to avoid the fast approaching disaster. And that is a political problem, not a technical one, unless we can develop the technology of PCT to the point where it can influence politics.

Martin

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On 2010/05/28 7:34 AM, Martin Lewitt wrote: