Clueless

[Bruce Gregory (2000.0926.1402)]

Following his recommendation I delete Rick's posts. (I found that doing
this before I read them works better than doing it after I read them.)
However, I accidentally read the following and it was so typical I have
broken my self-imposed vow.

in the
"Informant" post I did not say I was right; I said it was
_possible_ that there is no control of behavior involved in
the RTP classroom and that the teacher is actually acting
as an S-R automaton).

Need I say more? Apparently. Here we have a vivid example of a "forced
choice". Either Rick is correct or the RTP teacher is an S-R automaton.
No pressure. Pick the answer you like best.

I believe that Rick is sincere (just as I believe that George W. Bush is
sincere). You fill in the rest...

BG

[From Rick Marken (2000.09.26.1220)]

Me:

in the "Informant" post I did not say I was right; I said it was
_possible_ that there is no control of behavior involved in
the RTP classroom and that the teacher is actually acting
as an S-R automaton).

Bruce Gregory (2000.0926.1402)--

Need I say more? Apparently. Here we have a vivid example of
a "forced choice". Either Rick is correct or the RTP teacher
is an S-R automaton. No pressure. Pick the answer you like best.

The forced choice is 1) the teacher is asking the questions as
a means of controlling student behavior (which is, indeed,
my guess about what is going on) or 2) the teacher is asking
the questions as a response to the stimulus of disruptiveness
(ie. is acting as an S-R automaton) and is, thus, _not_
controlling student behavior. The way to make this choice is
to do the test for the controlled variable. If student behavior
proves not to be a controlled variable then 2) is the correct
choice; otherwise, it's 1).

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0926.1602)]

Rick Marken (2000.09.26.1220)

The forced choice is 1) the teacher is asking the questions as
a means of controlling student behavior (which is, indeed,
my guess about what is going on) or 2) the teacher is asking
the questions as a response to the stimulus of disruptiveness
(i.e.. is acting as an S-R automaton) and is, thus, _not_
controlling student behavior. The way to make this choice is
to do the test for the controlled variable. If student behavior
proves not to be a controlled variable then 2) is the correct
choice; otherwise, it's 1).

Damn, Rick, you are right again. I can't imagine why anyone would think
you are anything but the modest self-deprecating fellow we all know and
love. By the way, you respond to the Test in a way that leads me to
conclude you are an S-R automaton. Every remark that suggests that you
are less than perfect elicits a similar response. Surely you are not
exercising control, are you? I didn't think so.

Bye, Rick.

BG

[From Bill Powers (2000.09.27.0650 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2000.09.26.1220)--

If student behavior
proves not to be a controlled variable then 2) is the correct
choice; otherwise, it's 1).

"Student behavior" encompasses a lot of variables. In traditional
classrooms, some variables that the teacher controls would be sitting
quietly, not interrupting, attending to the teacher, reading from a
textbook, and so forth. In an RTP classroom, the teacher might be
controlling for the students' understanding the social system and
supporting it by their actions -- for example, by answering the questions
honestly, and by going willingly to the RTC when they agree that is the
appropriate step. The teacher might be trying to adjust his or her own
attitudes to remove pressure from the students, in the hope that the
students, appreciating this, will want to help make the classroom a
pleasant, productive place. Certainly control is involved, but as always it
is control of perception, and the students' role may not be that of the
manipulated party. It could be that the students and the teacher, when all
is going well, cooperate in controlling a number of social variables that
all involved have learned to perceive.

This is a little more interesting than a mere choice between (1) and (2).

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0927.0954)]

Bill Powers (2000.09.27.0650 MDT)

This is a little more interesting than a mere choice between
(1) and (2).

Elegantly stated. Thank you.

BG

[From Rick Marken (2000.09.27.0740)]

Bill Powers (2000.09.27.0650 MDT)--

"Student behavior" encompasses a lot of variables...It could be
that the students and the teacher, when all is going well,
cooperate in controlling a number of social variables that
all involved have learned to perceive.

This is a little more interesting than a mere choice
between (1) and (2).

Of course it is. And it's a lot more interesting than "So long,
Rick".

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2000.09.27.1900)]

Bill Powers (2000.09.27.0650 MDT)--

Certainly control is involved, but as always it is control
of perception, and the students' role may not be that of the
manipulated party. It could be that the students and the
teacher, when all is going well, cooperate in controlling
a number of social variables that all involved have
learned to perceive.

Actually, I don't quite understand this. Let's say that the
teacher is controlling the perceptual variable you suggest
might be one of those controlled by RTP teachers: "the students'
understanding the social system and supporting it by their
actions". Are you saying that when the teacher controls this
perception the students are not in the role of the manipulated
party? I don't see how this could be since this perception
seems to depend so much on what is done by the students
themselves.

It seems that when the teacher acts to control her perception
of "the students' understanding the social system and supporting
it by their actions", the students couldn't help but be, at least
to some extent, the manipulated party. Of course, the teacher
could be the manipulated party, too, if the students want to do
"counter control" and act to see her do whatever she does to control
her perception of "the students' understanding the social system
and supporting it by their actions". But the students -- at least
the observable aspects of the students that are perceived as
"understanding the social system and supporting it by their
actions" -- are still a manipulated party, no?

Or are you saying that when all is going well and the students
and teacher now cooperate in controlling social variables, the
teacher stops controlling perceptions, like "the students'
understanding the social system and supporting it by their
actions", where students are the manipulated party?

And, by the wya, aren't you doing an awful lot of forbidden
guessing about what goes on in the RTP program when you have
never observed an RTP school? Since no one is complaining, is it
because you did not call anyone an idiot or asshole, as I always
do? Or are some kinds of guesses about what goes on in RTP schools
more acceptable than others?

Still apparently clueless,

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

from Bill P.
snipped
In an RTP classroom, the teacher might be

controlling for the students' understanding the social system and
supporting it by their actions -- for example, by answering the questions
honestly, and by going willingly to the RTC when they agree that is the
appropriate step. The teacher might be trying to adjust his or her own
attitudes to remove pressure from the students, in the hope that the
students, appreciating this, will want to help make the classroom a
pleasant, productive place. Certainly control is involved, but as always

it

is control of perception, and the students' role may not be that of the
manipulated party. It could be that the students and the teacher, when all
is going well, cooperate in controlling a number of social variables that
all involved have learned to perceive.

This is a little more interesting than a mere choice between (1) and (2).

I'm happy to see these possibilities FINALLY presented by Bill. It's
unfortunate that so much of what teachers are trained to do is establish
that they are in charge. The alternative approaches, often labelled as
co-operative or collaborative learning and learning communities, establish
that classroom behaviour is everyone's responsibility. Where I was teaching
many years ago, the Free Gymnasium, in Copenhagen, the staff discovered that
students tended to be quite harsh towards their fellow students not pulling
their load. Many fruitful discussions resulted. RTP is a successful
adjustment to a system that would be better off with a more radical total
change to foster self-directed learning, learning how-to-learn and
metacognition. There are numerous examples of schools successfully applying
these approaches ..... and have been for years.

David Wolsk

[From Bill Powers (2000.09.29.0908 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2000.09.27.1900)--

Are you saying that when the teacher controls this
perception the students are not in the role of the manipulated
party? I don't see how this could be since this perception
seems to depend so much on what is done by the students
themselves.

The "students" are not manipulated; only certain aspects of their
_behavior_ are manipulated, preferably aspects that the students are
willing to alter anyway as a means of controlling their own perceptions.
When I am with other people, there are certain aspects of my own behavior
that (in effect) I place at the disposal of other people, to control as
they wish within reason. If someone needs to make a phone call and asks me
for a quarter, I will give the quarter. If someone asks me where the
bathroom is, I will pause what I am doing and give directions or point. If
someone wants to tell me a long boring story that I have already heard
three times from the same person, I will apologize and say I have to get
home right away to make lunch for the Pope, or some other plausible excuse
that doesn't hurt the person's feelings.

Part of the coin with which we pay our social dues is the set of ways in
which we agree to let others control our behavior. And part of the way we
protect our investment is to refrain from collecting more of those coins
than our share.

It seems that when the teacher acts to control her perception
of "the students' understanding the social system and supporting
it by their actions", the students couldn't help but be, at least
to some extent, the manipulated party.

Only their behavior is manipulated -- nothing important. If the
manipulation is done with sufficient respect for the students' goals, no
significant errors will be created. The students will go on controlling
what they need to control.

Or are you saying that when all is going well and the students
and teacher now cooperate in controlling social variables, the
teacher stops controlling perceptions, like "the students'
understanding the social system and supporting it by their
actions", where students are the manipulated party?

No. Everyone gets to control their own perceptions, even if the perceptions
consist in part of the behavior of other people. That's the beauty of
properly-designed interactions among control systems. In principle, each
can use the other as a means of control, without conflict.

And, by the wya, aren't you doing an awful lot of forbidden
guessing about what goes on in the RTP program when you have
never observed an RTP school? Since no one is complaining, is it
because you did not call anyone an idiot or asshole, as I always
do? Or are some kinds of guesses about what goes on in RTP schools
more acceptable than others?

I'm not guessing about what goes on in RTP schools. I've said nothing in
the above about RTP. "Teachers" and "students" are two classes of people
who interact. What I say about the interactions doesn't depend on whether
we're talking about RTP.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0929.12100]

Bill Powers (2000.09.29.0908 MDT)

Brilliant post.

BG

[From Rick Marken (2000.09.29.0930)]

Me:

Are you saying that when the teacher controls this perception
the students are not in the role of the manipulated party?

Bill Powers (2000.09.29.0908 MDT)--

The "students" are not manipulated; only certain aspects
of their _behavior_ are manipulated, preferably aspects
that the students are willing to alter anyway as a means
of controlling their own perceptions.

Very nice post. Thanks. I know you are not talking about any
particular program here. But I think your post suggests how
nice it would be for anyone promoting a school program based
on PCT to clearly explain how to identify those aspects of
student behavior that the teacher can control with impunity
(sans conflict); that is, it would help to explain how the
teacher can identify student behaviors that the students
are willing to alter.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (970927.2015 EDT)]

Sheri Turkle's latest book, _Life on the Screen_ has two
chapters providing an interesting view of the recent
history of AI and A-Life. As far as the latter is
concerned, she says (page 152):

"After the 1987 conference at Los Alamos, a consensus
began to develop that to qualify as life artificial
organisms most demonstrate four qualities. First, they
must exhibit evolution by natural selection, the
Darwinian aspect of our definition of life. Second, they
must possess a genetic program, the instruction for
their operation and reproduction, the DNA factor in our
definition of life. Third, they must demonstrate a high
level of complexity. A complex system has been
defined as "one whose component parts interact with
with sufficient intricacy that they cannot be predicted
by standard linear equations; so many variables are at
work in the system that its overall behavior can only
be understood as an emergent consequence of the
myriad behaviors embedded within." With complexity,
characteristics and behaviors emerge, in a significant
sense _unbidden_. The organism can self-organize.
This makes life possible. Thus the quality of
complexity would lead to the fourth necessary
quality: self-organization.

Before I encountered PCT, those conclusions might
have seemed sensible. I doubt I would even have
noticed that they omit the most salient feature of
living things...

Sancho

[From Bill Powers (970928.0514 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (970927.2015 EDT)--

Sheri Turkle's latest book, _Life on the Screen_ has two
chapters providing an interesting view of the recent
history of AI and A-Life. As far as the latter is
concerned, she says (page 152):

"After the 1987 conference at Los Alamos, a consensus
began to develop that to qualify as life artificial
organisms most demonstrate four qualities. First, they
must exhibit evolution by natural selection, the
Darwinian aspect of our definition of life. Second, they
must possess a genetic program, the instruction for
their operation and reproduction, the DNA factor in our
definition of life. Third, they must demonstrate a high
level of complexity. A complex system has been
defined as "one whose component parts interact with
with sufficient intricacy that they cannot be predicted
by standard linear equations; so many variables are at
work in the system that its overall behavior can only
be understood as an emergent consequence of the
myriad behaviors embedded within." With complexity,
characteristics and behaviors emerge, in a significant
sense _unbidden_. The organism can self-organize.
This makes life possible. Thus the quality of
complexity would lead to the fourth necessary
quality: self-organization.

Before I encountered PCT, those conclusions might
have seemed sensible. I doubt I would even have
noticed that they omit the most salient feature of
living things...

I tried to open a conversation with a person in Japan named de Garis (a
Westerner) who has somehow persuaded backers to invest tens of millions of
dollars in the production of a genetic-algorithm learning chip that can
"evolve" neural connections at the rate of a billion per second. In his
writings, he shows no evidence of having any model at all of behavioral
organization (other than a rudimentary S-R idea). Instead, he is relying on
this GA approach to provide the model by itself -- but not in any form we
could understand. The model will exist as evolved connections among some
billion artificial neurons, which of course would leave us in the the same
position we now occupy in relation to the real human brain (assuming the
project works).

I think the "complexity" approach as you decribe it above really amounts to
giving up the attempt to understand how organisms work. The principle seems
to be that since we can't model behavior, the best we can do is model a
system that will (one hopes) generate a behaving system from scratch, by
itself. The aims of such projects shift accordingly. Instead of leading to
understanding, what they will lead to is a new breed of life, Silicon Life,
which will surpass the human race and become master of the Galaxy, if not
the universe. de Garis calls himself a "Cosmist," which is some indication
of the way this approach to artificial life can develop.

Take a look at de Garis' web page, at

www.hip.atr.co.jp/~degaris

He has posted a number of interesting documents. One of them is his
Doctoral thesis, which I have downloaded and read. Another is a long paper
intended for reading by the Japanese scientific/industrial establishment,
in which he offers the helpful observation that the Japanese are not really
creative and should rely on Western brains to tell them what science and
engineering should accomplish. He helpfully points out all the social and
individual flaws in the Japanese, saying that they should reform
themselves, and in the meantime fund a large institute in which the staff,
90% from the West, would show the Japanese what to do, providing the ideas
they are incapable of coming up with themselves while the Japanese provide
the money.

In his one post to me, he complained about his difficulties in working with
the "japs."

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (970928.1040 EDT)]

Bill Powers (970928.0514 MDT)]

I think the "complexity" approach as you decribe it above really amounts

to

giving up the attempt to understand how organisms work. The principle

seems

to be that since we can't model behavior, the best we can do is model a
system that will (one hopes) generate a behaving system from scratch, by
itself. The aims of such projects shift accordingly. Instead of leading

to

understanding, what they will lead to is a new breed of life, Silicon

Life,

which will surpass the human race and become master of the Galaxy, if not
the universe. de Garis calls himself a "Cosmist," which is some

indication

of the way this approach to artificial life can develop.

Yes. That's why I find the Axelrod et al approach so much
more encouraging. Here is a quote from his introduction:

"The KISS principle is vital because of the character of the
research community. Both the researcher and the audience
have limited cognitive ability. When a surprising result
occurs, it is very helpful to be confident that we can
understand everything that went into the model. Although
the topic being investigated may be complicated, the
assumptions underlying the agent-based model should
be simple. The complexity of agent-based modeling should
be in the simulated results, not the assumptions of the
model."

It seems to me that this prescription suits PCT-based
models perfectly. Neural network models may be _too_
simple when it comes to their assumptions.

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (970928.1005 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (970928.1040 EDT)--

It seems to me that this [Axelrod's] prescription suits PCT-based
models perfectly. Neural network models may be _too_
simple when it comes to their assumptions.

Good find. I'll try to get hold of the book. Axelrod sound like a sensible
person. Are you going to write to him?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (970928.1950 EDT)]

Bill Powers (970928.1005 MDT)

Good find. I'll try to get hold of the book. Axelrod sound like a

sensible

person. Are you going to write to him?

He's very sensible. I have no plans to write to him. Maybe after
you've had a chance to look at his work, you'll drop him a line.
You may know his first book, _The Evolution of Cooperation_
which describes the iterated prisoner's dilemma contest. I
learned of his newest book from the StarLogo network, which
otherwise is not very informative. Too bad, since the language
seems well suited to simulations involving many agents. I
got his book from, where else, Amazon.com.

Bruce