[Martin Taylor 2011.04.18.11.31]
I've shifted the thread subject line, because it seems to me a bit
off the topic of whether and how one can quantify “freedom”.
[Martin
Lewitt 17 Apr 2011 2219 MDT]
*** snip ***
You seem to say that any use of force is coercion. But that
doesn’t make sense to me, since all output of a control system
is the use of force. There must be something more to it than
that.The part that is missing, is coercion involves the initiation of
force or threat of force against another human being, not just
initiation of force in control of the environment in general.
The emphasis on “initiation” is to distinguish coercion from the
use of force against another person in self-defense or defense of
others from coercion. Probably most libertarians add fraud to the
definition as a form of coercion.
A long time ago, probably in the early 90's, there was a long thread
here on coercion. I don’t intend to go back to it for reference, but
if there’s any interest, one could probably find it in Dag’s
archives. It didn’t really get anywhere, as far as I remember, so I
prefer to start anew with possibly different initial assumptions (as
well as the further developed understanding of PCT by many of the
participants here).
Let's take it one small part at a time, beginning with "force
against another human being" (deliberately ignoring “initiation” at
first.
The word "against" appears to be critical, or you would have used
“applied to” or “on” or some other neutral word. “Against” seems to
imply that the coercer (C) and.or the coercee (E) either are or
imagine they are in conflict. Perhaps it’s only C who experiences
this.
Do we agree so far?
Let's take the case in which C wants E to produce some action, or to
not produce some specific action. The former is the easier case,
since C has only to disturb some perception E is controlling, in a
way that E would be expected to counter by producing the desired
action.
Let's use my favourite example as an illustration. I will use
several related scenarios, and ask whether each involves coercion.
In all of them, assume my words and my tone of voice are the same.
0 (this is the basic situation for all of the following scenarios):
I am sitting down. You are standing by a closed window. I say “Would
you mind opening the window. please”. You do so (or not in some of
the following instances). Have I coerced you? Most probably you
would answer “No”.
But let's look a little deeper into the situation. What perceptions
are you controlling that I disturbed by my words? According to PCT,
I must have disturbed some perception you are controlling, or you
would not have performed the action of closing the window; “All
(intentional) behaviour is the control of perception”.
Scenario 1: Suppose I am an invalid, and cannot get out of the
chair. You control a self-image perception (presumably developed
through reorganization in your cultural milieu) in which one element
is that you perceive yourself to be helpful to disabled people. In
imagination you determine that not opening the window would create
error in a perception you control with rather high gain (it’s
important to you to heklp a disabled person when you can). Your
helping me by opening the window avoids introducing error into your
self-image perception. Am I coercing you by being disabled and
potentially thereby disturbing a perception you control at high
gain?
Scenario 2: Again suppose I am an invalid in the same situation, but
now you know that the institution has a rule that the windows must
stay closed. Am I coercing you? Is the institution?
Scenario 3: Same situation as in 2, but as I speak, I pick up a gun
that was lying on the table and casually look at it. Am I coercing
you?
Scenario 4: Same situation as in 3, but rather than causally looking
at the gun, I point it in your general direction. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 5: Same situation as in 3 (not 4), but I know you know I am
a keen gun collector and the gun I pick up was recently bought at
auction. Am I coercing you?
In the next few examples, I am not an invalid, but I am sitting in a
comfortable chair. To repeat the base situation, I ask in a normal
tone of voice: “Would you mind opening the window, please?” when you
are standing by the window. In the following, you would prefer to
have the window closed because you feel cold and outside it is
colder.The differences in the scenarios are not in my actions or
words, but in our social relationship. In the next few, the
relationship is parent-child.
Scenario 6: You are a child and I am your parent. You know me to
show disapproval by frowning and looking unhappy. You do not like
this, as it is a disturbance to your controlled perception that I
perceive you to be a good child. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 7: Same as 6 except that you know me to show disapproval by
expressing anger verbally and strongly, though the anger usually
dissipates quickly. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 8: Same as 6 except that you know me to show disapproval by
hitting or beating you. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 9: I am the child and you are I am the parent. I normally
show disapproval by looking glum and getting sulky. Am I coercing
you?
Scenario 10: Same as 9, but I often show disapproval by launching
into a temper tantrum in which I kick and throw things. Am I
coercing you?
In the next few scenarios, we work at the same company.
Scenario 11: I am the CEO, and you are a low-level manger. I am
visiting you because I have learned we have a common interest in
chess. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 12: Same, except that I am the low level manager and you
are the CEO, visiting me. Am I coercing you?
Scenario 13: Same as 11, except that I am visiting you to discuss
whether you have any future with the company. Am I coercing you?
···
On 4/17/2011 9:57 PM, Martin Taylor wrote:
-----------------
The point of these different scenarios is to illustrate that it is
difficult to define a precise boundary on coercion, since different
outside observers may give different answers for some of the 13
scenarios, and to suggest that coercion is something the coercee may
perceive without the coercer having any intention to coerce. In all
of the scenarios, if the person by the window wanted the window
open, there would be no obvious coercion, even though the coercer
might have intended to coerce.
*** snip ***
I
asked in my last message that you define “Bad Guy”. I’d still
like to know.A bad guy is someone who coerces.
Having considered the foregoing scenarios, is a "Bad Guy" someone
you perceive to be coercing you, someone you perceive to be coercing
another, or someone who intends to coerce?
Martin T