Collision Control

To John Flach and the PCT modeling interest group [changed to CSGnet by the
time I got to the end]:

We're coming down to the nitty-gritty here, with a paper by John Flach et.
al. about collisions. If John wants to cc a copy to this reply-all list,
that would help, but I will quote enough to get the points across, I hope.

Let's start with the paper's opening quotation from Gibson, which I include
in its entirety:

Approach to a solid surface is specified by a centrifugal flow of the
texture of the optic array. Approach to an object is specified by a
magnification of the closed contour in the array corresponding to the
edges of the object. A uniform rate of approach is accompanied by an
accelerated rate of magnification. At the theoretical point where the eye
touches the object the latter will intercept a visual angle of 180�; the
magnification reaches an explosive rate in the last moments before
contact. The accelerated expansion in the field of view specifies imminent
collision, and it is unquestionably an effective stimulus for behavior in
animals with well developed visual systems�.the fact is that animals need
to make contact without collision with many solid objects of their
environment: food objects, sex objects, and the landing surfaces on which
insects and birds alight (not to mention helicopter pilots). Locomotor
action must be balanced between approach and aversion. The governing
stimulation must be a balance between flow and non-flow of the optic
array. The formula is as follows: contact without collision is achieved by
so moving as to cancel the centrifugal flow of the optic array at the
moment when the contour of the object or the texture surface reaches that
angular magnification at which contact is made. Gibson (1958/1982,
p. 155 156)

One point of interest here, made more obvious in other writings by Gibson,
is that he had the idea of controlling perceptions (or at least inputs)
quite clearly. Collision avoidance, he says, is a problem of controlling
the flow of the optic array, not of producing any specific behavioral
action. One problem is that he mixed this view with the old
stimulus-response view.

Consider the sentence above, "The accelerated expansion in the field of
view specifies imminent collision, and it is unquestionably an effective
stimulus for behavior in animals with well developed visual systems." This
is, of course, the view against which PCT is arrayed: the idea that there
are stimuli which cause behavior. Note the assumption that the observer's
interpretation is an objective fact. I don't dispute the interpretation,
but I do dispute saying that it is an unquestionable aspect of objective
reality rather than a perception constructed by the brain of the observer.
Of course I also question the implication that the accelerated expansion
of the visual field is enough to cause some sort of behavior in the manner
of stimulus and response, with no need for a perceptual function to convert
an expansion of a retinal image to a perception of approach, or a need for
a reference signal to specify the desired degree, or maximum desired
degree, of approach.

Consider also, "The governing stimulation must be a balance between flow
and non-flow of the optic array." I don't dispute the theory that there is
an optical image on the retina, and that both the human observer and the
subject of observation will perceive a flow (which at one end of the scale
includes non-flow) of the image. That merely says that all human beings are
built alike. But there is a claim that this stimulation somehow "governs,"
which is a theoretical assumption contrary to control theory, and contrary
even to Gibson's idea of behavioral output controlling sensory input.

It's very clear that Gibson accepted his own private view of the world as
if it were a correct and objective picture. "Approach to a solid surface"
assumes the existence of an objective solid surface and an objective
dynamic relationship called approach. Elsewhere he has talked about
"tangible" objects, as if the sense of touch were somehow more objective
than other senses. "Centrifugal flow" assumes movement of image elements
away from a center, "the texture of the optic array" assumes something
called "texture," not to mention an "array." "Approach to an object"
assumes a changing distance relationship, "magnification of the closed
contour in the array" assumes a size relationship between the optic array
and the object. and "corresponding to the edges of the object" implies some
way of knowing about the object without depending on the optic array. In
short, Gibson takes the same view taken by any engineer, in which the role
of human perception in producing the world of experience is simply ignored
-- the next thing to naive realism. This is a perfectly useful point of
view for engineering, but it leads in the long run to a model of human
organization that is incompatible with our other models of reality.

In PCT terms, the problem here is that of exempting certain perceptions
from the general rule that what the brain knows (that is, what we know)
consists of perceptual signals. Certain aspects of the world, such as
"solid surfaces", are simply taken for granted by Gibson as existing
independently of the observer, and do not themselves apparently require any
explanation. I repeat that the issue here is not the veridicality of
perceptions; that remains an open question with answers that vary with
circumstances. The issue is that of modeling an organism which has no view
of the world independent of its perceptions -- and that includes organisms
like you, and me, and Gibson, and Flach.

I have started out discussing Gibson in the hope of directing my criticisms
toward a target outside the present circle and thus perhaps postponing any
direct confrontations. But now let us get into John Flach's paper.

The article begins in a promising way:

2. The comparator Problem

In a control system, the comparator is a junction with reference and
feedback signals coming in and error signals coming out. In a simple
system, such as the servomechanism illustrated in Figure 1, the comparator
is analogous to the simple mathematical operation of subtraction. The
feedback signal (specifying the current state of the system) is subtracted
from the reference signal (specifying the desired state of the system) in
order to get an error signal (the deviation from the goal). The error
signal then drives action in the direction that will reduce the difference
(bring the system state closer to the goal state).

There is nothing here to raise an eyebrow among aficionados of PCT. The
eyebrows will go up, however, at the next statement:

In engineering control systems an important step (that is critical in
practice, but rarely explicitly acknowledged) is to convert the various
signals (reference, feedback, and error) into a common (comparable)
medium (e.g., electrical current). Once this is accomplished, the
operation of the comparator is directly analogous to the simple
mathematical operation of subtraction. Figure 1: How is it possible for
a biological system to compare perceptual feedback to intentions in order
to specify appropriate corrective actions?

I will venture a guess that most PCTers will recognize the stated problem
as a non-problem. But this is because PCTers do not automatically assume
that there is an objective optic array in which the "signals" mentioned
above exist _outside of the brain_. If those signals exist outside of the
brain, then there is surely a comparator problem, and the question about
making comparisons is quite appropriate. But if the state of the system is
represented as a perceptual signal inside the brain, and the intended state
is also a signal inside the brain, then there is no difficulty at all with
converting these signals into a common medium: they are already in a common
medium, and subtraction poses no difficulties.

We have seen this problem in many forms. When I was first learning about
control systems, I fell prey to it, too. The problem is that while we can
see how an external variable like temperature can be represented by an
electrical signal of varying magnitude, it is very hard to understand how
the temperature could be compared with a _desired_ temperature, which
exists in a different place, inside somebody's head. The temptation is
strong to look for something else in the environment that will indicate the
desired temperature -- for example, if you are too warm you may see or feel
sweat on your skin. That labor of looking for an external explanation of
the reference condition is, as PCTers will recognize, exactly the wrong
strategy.

The difficulty arises from taking the external observer's point of view
instead of that of the control system. To the external observer, it seems
that the variable to be controlled is over _here_ in the environment, while
the desired state of that variable is specified over _there_ inside the
controlling person. But as soon as you move your point of view to the
interior of the control system, it becomes clear that the state of the
variable to be controlled is first known to the controller in the form of a
signal, and comparison of that signal to another one specifying the desired
state (also inside the controller) becomes a trivial problem, a
non-problem. As soon as we recognize that to any control system, the state
of the external world IS the state of its perceptual signals, the
comparison problem disappears.

At this point a distracting red herring gets dragged across the path:

Classically, this has been thought to require translation into a
symbolic neural representation. The idea of direct perception suggests
that lawful relations in perceptual arrays may support an indexical
coding in the nervous system that can be fully described in terms of the
perceptual referents.

In a way this is a valid and illuminating observation, but in another way
it discards a baby with the bathwater. As we know, many perceptions are
continuously variable, the magnitude (frequency) of a neural signal
indicating the magnitude of some (supposed) external variable. Perhaps this
is what Flach means by "indexical," though I don't really know. For this
class of perceptions, treating them as "events" or "states" to be
represented by discrete symbols is simply a mistake. To explain behaviors
like tracking, we need signals that vary on a continuum.

On the other hand, there are obviously perceptions that are in fact
symbolic, and which vary in an either-or way. What I am doing is called
"tracking," or it's not called "tracking," with no states between. If I
tell you to bring me "a sandwich," you can translate this verbal symbol
into an appropriate perception of an object we would both agree to call a
"sandwich," and then you can set the appropriate reference signals that
will result in our both perceiving that you have brought me a sandwich. We
can't ignore this kind of discrete control process, because such control
processes are the origin of most of the analog reference signals at lower
levels of organization. However, this whole subject brings up the concept
of levels of control, and that runs counter to the Gibsoniam premise that
says the environment sets our reference signals.

Now the confusion begins in earnest:

However, for animals, the three signals associated with the comparator

rarely come nicely packaged in a common medium or currency that would allow
simple subtraction of one from the other to produce the third. For
example, the
reference or intention may be to get to a meeting across town as quickly as
possible without collision. The information may be patterns in an optical
flow field. What does it mean to subtract the patterns from the intention?
The difference from this subtraction would have to specify the actions of
muscles (perhaps on control devices - steering wheel, accelerator, and
brake pedal). The natural units for each of these "signals" converging at
the comparator are different - desire not to be late for an important
meeting and to avoid collisions, a transforming pattern of texture
transduced through a retina, and a force or motion of a limb perhaps
transduced through a vehicle. How does an animal translate from one medium
to another in order to behave appropriately that is, in order to behave
in a way so that errors from intentions are kept within acceptable limits.

The idea of a multiordinate control organization with many systems at each
level controlling in one degree of freedom apiece solves these problems
automatically. First, the three signals are always in the common currency
because they are all neural signals to begin with. Second, the reference
signals do not have to be found in the external world, the optic array,
because they are specified by higher levels of organization in the brain
and do not _ever_ enter as sensory signals. And third, a complex goal such
as "get to a meeting across town as quickly as possible without collision"
breaks down into a set of parallel control processes each concerned with
one, or only a very few, degrees of freedom. Get to the meeting. Move
rapidly. Avoid collisions. Each of these control processes can be carried
out with reference signals set independently of the others. Each entails a
simpler perception that can be comparied with a reference signal set by a
higher system, such as a system that has the goal of not arriving early and
does this by setting the reference-speed for the trip to a lower value than
normal. The systems that want to avoid collision and want to get to the
meeting work as before.

Now the red herring returns:

Psychology has conventionally assumed that the comparator problem was
solved "in the head." That is, the general notion was that the three
signals (intention, feedback/perception, and error/motor command) were
converted to some common symbolic neural code (reflected in terms like
program, schema, mental map, mental model, gestalt, etc.). Thus, the
neural symbols associated with perceptions could be "compared" with the
neural symbols associated with intentions in a way that would specify the
appropriate neural symbols to guide actions..

If we put aside the difference between discrete and analog "codes", this is
exactly the PCT view (though I doubt it is the prevalent or conventional
"psychological" view). Perceptual functions convert physical stimulations
into perceptual signals, level upon level, with the lower levels behaving
as analog signals and the higher ones as discrete symbolic signals. This
provides a straightforward physical explanation of how living control
systems work, without filling in the details of course, but presenting a
framework within which we can hope to fill in the details.

But now Flach et. al. offer an alternative:

Gibson, however, suggested an alternative position. The radical notion of
"direct perception" suggests that the comparator problem can be solved in
the light. Gibson (1958/1982) wrote:

To begin locomotion, therefore, is to contract the muscles as to make the
forward optic array flow outward. To stop locomotion is to make the flow
cease. To reverse locomotion is to make it flow inward. To speed up
locomotion is to make the rate of flow increase and to slow down is to
make it decrease. An animal who is behaving in these ways is optically
stimulated in the corresponding ways, or, equally, an animal who so acts
as to obtain these kinds of optical stimulation is behaving in the
corresponding ways (p. 155).

If this is an alternative to the view expressed just before (it could be
taken as a simple restatement of it), the implication is that the "optic
array" is something existing outside the nervous system, presumably on the
retina. But if this is the intention, we are faced with something existing
on the retina that is not part of our physical theories about the world. We
know that according to simple physics, what exists on the retina is a field
of variable light intensities with different wavelengths. This field varies
with time, but it is never anything but a field of intensities and
wavelengths. More specifically, it contains no patterns, no objects, no
motion or flow, no sizes, no color, no boundaries, no relationships, no
events. Those are all impressions that arise after the initial neural
signals pass inward to higher structures in the brain. In short, there is
nothing "in the light" that can do any of the things Gibson, and now Flach,
want to be done there. Ask any physicist.

The above statement by Gibson can be converted to an equivalen PCT
statement by making one very small -- but profound -- change. All we have
to do is recognize that the "optic array" consists of the outputs of neural
perceptual functions specialized to produce signals indicating such things
as intensity, color, shape, motion, and position (and more) -- the
dimensions of experience that we find familiar (of course). Optical flow is
a neural signal. Size is a neural signal. Increase and decrease are neural
signals. Animals that behave as Gibson says are acting to obtain particular
neural signals in their brains by acting on the world and their
relationship to it to alter the optical inputs to the hierarchy of neural
computations making up many visual input functions at each of many levels.

Under this view there is simply no "comparator problem." Experience occurs
from the very start in the "common currency" of neural signals. Reference
signals do not enter the organism from outside it; they are specified for
any one level by systems at a higher level of organization. The highest
levels of reference signals come from heredity or experiment or memory --
but no reference signals ever come from outside the nervous system.

Now the denoument: Flach at. al. say

The implication of Powers' description of learning to drive and his
choice of the term "perceptual" control theory suggests that the currency
exchange that allows feedback to inform action relative to intentions is
typically
negotiated in the medium of perception. An important point of the PCT
approach is that the variable that drives a control system (e.g., a
thermostat) is
not the "output" variable per se (e.g., the actual room temperature), but the
measured or perceived temperature. Ideally, in a designed control system
there
would be a close correspondence between the output variable and the measured
variable. However, for the control system, the measured temperature is the
only
temperature. Analogously, the animal knows nothing of the world except its
own perceptions. Of course, if those perceptions are not fairly well tuned
to the actual situations in the world, the animal is not likely to survive
for very long. Although Gibson and Powers both focus on perception,
Powers treats perception as an "image . . . in your head," where as Gibson
focused on the structure in an optical array outside the head.

This is an accurate and fair representation of PCT. In defense of his
position, Flach says

An important implication of a closed-loop coupling of perception and
action is that neither perception nor action is causally prior to the
other. Thus, action and perception are locked in a circular causality.
This opens up the possibility that in many cases (not all) that the
problem is solved by putting muscles and intentions into the light. In
Gibson's words from the earlier citation "an animal so acts as to obtain
these kinds of optical stimulation." Muscles can be put into the light by
moving to create an optical flow field. Analogously, the dynamics of a
vehicle can be put into the light by manipulating the controls
transforming the optical flow (e.g., jiggling the steering wheel or
tapping the brakes). Further, we believe that by attending to the
consequences of motion, animals can learn to associate those consequences
with patterns in the optical flow field. This creates the possibility for
intentions to be specified in optical terms.

The phrase "putting muscles and intentions into the light" has about as
much meaning to me as a citation to "1st Corinthians" would. Putting that
obvious piece of ideology aside, we could interpret this paragraph to mean
that it is always possible to express the elements of (visual) control
processes in terms of equivalent states of the visual field on the retina.
And that is true: we have something in PCT called "the test for the
controlled variable" which does exactly that, though variables in other
parts of the external world (as we humans experience it) are also included.
We use physical models to represent the physical world, neural models to
represent the brain, and so on, and we can translate from one model into
the other if we choose and if we have complete enough models.

However, the things that are said to exist in the optical array on the
retina can be known ONLY when they are viewed by a human brain -- the brain
of the person or animal doing the behaving, and the brain of the
observer/analyst who is speaking of information, value, and action. They do
not exist in the physical light distribution itself, as the appropriate
theories of physics would inform us. The optic array and all its attributes
exists only inside the brain that receives the optical intensity signals.

To finish up section 2 of this paper:

It is important to note that the optical states are expected to have
correlated structure in the neural medium, (e.g., weights in a neural
network). However, the critical point of "direct perception" is that the
neural medium does not introduce additional constraints, at least, when we
are dealing with supra- threshold phenomenon which is generally the case
for control of locomotion. In other words, the claim of direct perception
is that the "comparison" of intention with ongoing perception to specify
action can be described in terms of lawful relations (e.g., physical laws)
that exist independent of any symbolic neural or cognitive process.

From the PCT point of view, this puts the cart squarely in front of the
horse. What we know as human beings is not the optical states, but the
perceptual signals: the optical states are theoretical and hypothetical.
The primary information we have about the world is in the form of neural
signals that we experience directly. In fact, even the idea of neural
signals is theoretical in this context. We begin with direct experience,
and only after considerable effort have we managed to devise physical and
neurololgical models that tell us what it is and where it comes from.

As the radical constructivist Ernst von Glasersfeld once said, "The brain
is not the black box; the environment is." The brain, PCT proposes,
receives physical effects from the environment, convertiong them to neural
signals which represent all that the brain can know about its surroundings.
All else is constructed by the brain, in the attempt to find and take
advantage of regularities in the connection between our outputs and our
inputs. Those connections remain completely invisible; they are accessible
only through making and testing hypotheses about the external reality.

···

===================================================================

I think that's far enough. The rest of the paper depends critically on the
assumptions and counterarguments discussed so far, and once these issues
have been settled the rest of the development would follow logically. I
think the lines between PCT and the Gibsonian position are clearly drawn. I
will not venture to serve both as the defense lawyer for PCT and the judge
of the case, so "more, deponent sayeth not."

Come to think of it, I'm changing the cc from the modelers' group to the
CSGnet list. John is welcome to copy this to his colleagues as he sees fit.
The issues here seem clear and sharp to me, and we need as much discussion
as we can get. Somewhere down the line, one point of view must prevail,
since they are radically divergent on most matters other than control
theory itself.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2003.09.26.1224 MDT)]

All,

As I read Bill's comments I had a strong sense that
many of Bill's concerns have more to do with the context of his long
struggle to defend
his views against critics, than with what I have written.

I thought my comments were pretty accurately focused on what Gibson wrote
and on what you wrote. One reason that I am not an engineering psychologist
today is that I realized long ago, in the 1950s, that the
then-engineering-psychologists believed that reference signals and
comparators exist outside the brain. This was an obvious mistake, seeing
that there are no mechanisms in a display device for doing comparisons --
that is, subtracting one input from another input to produce an output
signal proportional to the difference. I made some attempt to question the
people then doing this work, without success. I can see that my objections
are having no more success with the descendants of those early explorers,
and I still fail to see why.

More later.

Bill P.

···

At 10:02 AM 9/25/03, John Flach wrote:

Bruce,

Interesting comments -- the target audience for this chapter was the ecological community (this is going into a
book on time-to-contact). So I did take belief in an optic array for granted. I was trying to convince them of
the value of control. Obviously, Rick and Bill think that I have completely missed that target
as well -- but that debate has been going on for more than a year with no progress.

However, I would say two things. The optic array is a "fact." That is, the changing perspective
at a moving observation point can be described mathematically (these are the mathematics that we use to
construct virtual motions in a VR system, for example). Whether it is utilized as information by animals is
an empirical question -- if you are interested in seeing some of the empirical evidence I suggest you look at
some of the papers cited in this chapter. Also look at the chapter on optics in our control book.
When Gibson originally proposed the "optic array" as a stimulus for perception
is was a conjecture -- however, the empirical evidence is beginning to line up in support of this conjecture.

Whether the structure in optical arrays leads to "direct" perception or whether this structure is simply a "hint"
about the real world is still much debated. However, the empirical evidence seems to be consistent that
animals are sensitive to "structure" in an optic array. What this means for an overarching theory of perception
is open for debate.

One other point -- it is not "where" the information comes together that is the issue -- it is the "units" of the information.
I am simply claiming that the units are indexically related to structure in the array. Whether the comparison happens
in the head, in the muscles, in the eye, or in the air is irrelevant to me. [indexical is a term from semiotics -- it simply
means that there is a proportional relation between the "sign" (in this case optical flow) and what is signified (motion of
the observer) -- as opposed to a "symbolic"
relation. An example of an indexical relation it the relation between height in a column of mercury (sign) and temperature
(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a "symbolic" relation between neural structure and the external world. I'm sure some
aspects of cognition are symbolic -- but I believe that the success of any symbolic system depends on an indexical
foundation -- I can't imagine any other way for the symbols to have any correspondence with an external world. (just as the
height of the column of mercury provides an indexical basis for the different symbolic systems for coding temperature).

Perhaps, I was being too poetic in saying "in the light" -- I was not speaking about a location, but rather the source
of constraint (structure) that provides the dimensional basis for the comparison. I was hoping that the discussion of
Sun and Frost's work on neural mechanism would make this clear -- but obviously not.

It was probably a mistake to send this to the CSGNet. It was written for a different audience -- and now it is becoming
painfully clear that the missing context is leading to more "noise" than "signal."

I have no intention of debating the "Gibsonian" approach with the CSGNet group. These comments are simply to
add context to the paper. If you think that Gibson is crap -- I'm sure that nothing I have to offer will change your
mind.

Sorry,

John

PS. Rick feel free to post these comments on the Net.

···

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 01:28 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

The central claim of the paper, as I understand it, is that a control system brings intention, action, and 'information' together, not inside the organism in a comparator, but just outside the organism, in the 'optic array'. The idea seems to be that this information in the environment is a patterning in the light, presumably in the distribution of light of different wavelengths and intensities, where it intersects the plane of the retina and impinges on neural receptors.

The problem that this proposal addresses is the fact that incommensurables cannot be usefully compared ("the comparison process requires a common currency among the three sources of constraint: intention, action, and information").

According to this, if I understand correctly, the cloud labelled 'perception' in Fig. 3 (p. 80) is in the environment along with the outputs of the 'Action System'. The Criterion (reference signal) and Comparator are inside the organism. The optical angle (indicated as theta) and expansion rate (theta-prime) are fed back as direct neural transforms, faithful reflections, of the corresponding properties of the optic array. If comparison takes place in the Comparator, and not in the optic array, then the above claim must hinge on this fidelity, and in addition the Criterion must also be a faithful transform of some property that is physically present in the optic array.

In other words, in order to maintain the primacy of information in the environment, two out of the three factors (Criterion/reference and perceptual input) are constrained to be direct, faithful transforms of information that is present in the environment. No construction, only replication.

However, no evidence is provided for the existence of the optic array. So far as I can tell, reading the paper, it is simply presumed to exist.

At 11:42 AM 9/24/2003 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

However, the things that are said to exist in the optical array on the
retina can be known ONLY when they are viewed by a human brain -- the brain
of the person or animal doing the behaving, and the brain of the
observer/analyst who is speaking of information, value, and action. They do
not exist in the physical light distribution itself, as the appropriate
theories of physics would inform us. The optic array and all its attributes
exists only inside the brain that receives the optical intensity signals.

1. Patterning that is said to exist in the optical array on the retina can be known only when perceived.

2. No such patterning exists in the distribution of light where it intersects the plane of the retina. There is no such optical array on the retina.

The step from knowledge (1) to existence (2) is not well supported. You invoke appropriate theories of physics. This strikes me as the point in your argument in most need of strengthening, perhaps only by briefly paraphrasing relevant principles of optics and stating how they apply.

Conversely, the Gibsonian claim that the optical array does exist also has to be supported, and even more so

the critical point of "direct perception" ... that the
neural medium does not introduce additional constraints

This amounts to a denial of constructivism, a claim that the patterning of the neural signals from the retina is a faithful replica of the patterning in the light impinging on the retina, the optic array. The basis for these claims must go beyond the evidence given directly by the experience of visual perception, just as the science of optics does. For the first claim, we cannot assume that the patterning is there because that is what we see. There must be independent sources of evidence for it. For the second, to show that none of the attributes of visual perception are constructed by the nervous system one must demonstrate that they are all present in the evidence for the first claim. Has this been done?

The Gibsonian claim as I understand it is that information commonly considered to be in the nervous systems of organisms is in fact in the environment. I shouldn't be surprised if this has turned out to be a difficult position to maintain. The strategy here of placing that information on the retina just prior to its conversion to neural signals strikes me as the last stages of retreat. You can't get any farther from the environment than at the very surface of sensory receptors. One possible line of questioning is, how does this generalize across other sensory modalities? Is there an olfactory array, an auditory array, a gustatory array?

Earlier, you say:

the issue here is not the veridicality of
perceptions; that remains an open question with answers that vary with
circumstances. The issue is that of modeling an organism which has no view
of the world independent of its perceptions -- and that includes organisms
like you, and me, and Gibson, and Flach.

This seems to me a bit wide of its target. If I understand correctly, the Gibsonians are focusing here on their model of the environment, with their model of the organism somewhat in the background or perhaps even deferred. (Note here the low expectations of models as mere analogies, on the last page of the paper.) The claim seems to be that with their superior model of the environment a simpler model of the organism is possible. If the patterning is truly in the environment (just at the point where the environment impinges on sensory inputs) then the nervous system only has to transform that patterning to a directly correspondent neural encoding that faithfully replicates the patterning, and pass it along without loss or distortion for further cognitive processing. I may have this wrong, and if I have read too superficially I apologize.

Now, to turn the argument on its head, if two out of three factors (perceptual input and reference input or Criterion) are within the organism, and expressed in the same terms, actions clearly are not. How do you get actions to be in units commensurate with neural signals representing, say, optical angle? Indeed, how does the difference between two like signals map onto actions? In this case, the difference also represents and optical angle. Presumably, that maps to position control, either of the object, or of the observing eye, or both. And as to how it comes about, the best answer seems to be millennia of variability across individuals, in which some individuals were more successful in bringing genetic heirs to maturity than others. This is of course the same means by which perceptual signals have been brought into conformity (as we suppose) with the environment. Sufficiently, at least, for our continued progenitive success.

So it is incumbent on the Gibsonian side to demonstrate not only that any of this is present as information in the environment, but also why it even needs to be. This seems so far only to have been an assumption as something self evident.

    /Bruce Nevin

John M. Flach
Professor, Department of Psychology
Wright State University
3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.
Dayton, OH 45435-0001
Phone: (937) 775-2391
Fax: (937) 775-3347
www.psych.wright.edu

"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure." Mark Twain

Hi John --

Bruce,

Interesting comments -- the target audience for this chapter was the ecological community (this is going into a
book on time-to-contact)...
I have no intention of debating the "Gibsonian" approach with the CSGNet group. These comments are simply to
add context to the paper. If you think that Gibson is crap -- I'm sure that nothing I have to offer will change your
mind.

Sorry,

John

PS. Rick feel free to post these comments on the Net.

It looks like there aren't that many on the net who are interested. But I can't tell. I'll just leave it as is unless you would like to post to CSGNet yourself. If I get time to reply I might copy my reply to CSGNet.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

I confess that I don’t know enough to warrant a judgement that
“Gibson is crap”, and the appearance of such judgement is a
poor performance on my part, for which I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification of ‘indexical’. It seems more or less
equivalent to the notion of a transform or a correspondence, in the sense
that I meant, and seems (appropriately) to be limited to scalar
variables.

An example of an indexical relation it the
relation between height in a column of mercury (sign) and temperature

(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a “symbolic”
relation between neural structure and the external world. I’m sure
some

aspects of cognition are symbolic – but I believe that the success of
any symbolic system depends on an indexical

foundation

Yes, this is what Bill meant when he said that at the lower levels of the
perceptual hierarchy are analog variables, with ‘digital’ or symbolic
variables only at the higher levels. He postulates a level of category
perception above which everything is symbolic, and below which everything
is analog. (I have questioned whether this might be rather a function
based in associative memory. This would account for the promiscuity of
inputs – virtually any kind of perception is subject to categorization
– and for the speed and motility of ad hoc categorizing, exceeding what
has been proposed for reorganization. Many other issues as well. But
that’s a digression here.)

the changing perspective at a moving
observation point can be described mathematically

Unfortunately, this begs the question at issue: Whose changing
perspective? As soon as you answer that question, you are talking about
perception rather than the properties of the environment, or of light
from the environment. An assumption that the investigator’s perceptions
are objective facts about the environment must be justified.

Each rod or cone on the retina sends one neural signal, corresponding to
the intensity of light at that point. For that one sensor, there are no
patterns, movements, angles, or rates. Anything more than point
intensities is constructed by the nervous system farther in toward the
brain and farther away from the retina.

So far as I can tell, the only evidence of such patterning is by means of
perceptions constructed in this way. But again, I plead ignorance. I
don’t see any titles about optics or the physics of light among your
references, but I won’t pretend to judge a book (or article) entirely by
its title. Perhaps you can paraphrase some relevant physical science that
demonstrates the presence of, say, perspective or angular direction, in
light energy as it passes through a plane. Obviously, one could position
a light-reflective surface at that plane and observe an image reflected
from it, but, just as obviously, that would beg the question.

The fact that a mathematical analysis of what is perceived suffices to
generate an image that is perceived in the same way suffers from the same
defect. The ineluctable modality of the perceptible (to extend, or
distend, Joyce’s comment in the character of Stephen Daedalus).

The question is not whether Gibson is right or wrong, but whether your
model replicates the behavior of a living organism, which, as you rightly
say at the end of your paper, occupies the place of honor. If you can
construct a model that behaves just like a living organism with better
than 99% fidelity, then the structure and function of that model very
likely informs us about the structure and function of the organism. If
such a model works by faithfully transmitting information from the
environment to comparators, without constructing any information along
the way, then that is pretty good evidence that the information is in the
environment and is not a perceptual construct. Such a model is not just a
so-so analogy that can serve as a metaphorical guide to further research,
it is a close analog that can serve as scientific proof. Such are the
research standards of this group.

Short of that, it seems to me that the challenge to both of you is to get
the persuasive testimony of our elder brother science, physics, on your
side. This, so far, neither of you has done – although I hasten to admit
again that I have only read the titles of your references, John. Either
of these would get away from a “yes it is” “no it
isn’t” disagreement about the proposition that the information is in
the environment.

    /Bruce
···

At 02:21 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

Bruce,

Interesting comments – the target audience for this chapter was the
ecological community (this is going into a

book on time-to-contact). So I did take belief in an optic array
for granted. I was trying to convince them of

the value of control. Obviously, Rick and Bill think that I
have completely missed that target

as well – but that debate has been going on for more than a year with no
progress.

However, I would say two things. The optic array is a
“fact.” That is, the changing perspective

at a moving observation point can be described mathematically (these are
the mathematics that we use to

construct virtual motions in a VR system, for example). Whether it
is utilized as information by animals is

an empirical question – if you are interested in seeing some of the
empirical evidence I suggest you look at

some of the papers cited in this chapter. Also look at the chapter on
optics in our control book.

When Gibson originally proposed the “optic array” as a stimulus
for perception

is was a conjecture – however, the empirical evidence is beginning to
line up in support of this conjecture.

Whether the structure in optical arrays leads to “direct”
perception or whether this structure is simply a “hint”

about the real world is still much debated. However, the empirical
evidence seems to be consistent that

animals are sensitive to “structure” in an optic array. What
this means for an overarching theory of perception

is open for debate.

One other point – it is not “where” the information comes
together that is the issue – it is the “units” of the
information.

I am simply claiming that the units are indexically related to structure
in the array. Whether the comparison happens

in the head, in the muscles, in the eye, or in the air is irrelevant to
me. [indexical is a term from semiotics – it simply

means that there is a proportional relation between the “sign”
(in this case optical flow) and what is signified (motion of

the observer) – as opposed to a “symbolic”

relation. An example of an indexical relation it the relation
between height in a column of mercury (sign) and temperature

(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a “symbolic”
relation between neural structure and the external world. I’m sure
some

aspects of cognition are symbolic – but I believe that the success of
any symbolic system depends on an indexical

foundation – I can’t imagine any other way for the symbols to have any
correspondence with an external world. (just as the

height of the column of mercury provides an indexical basis for the
different symbolic systems for coding temperature).

Perhaps, I was being too poetic in saying “in the light”
– I was not speaking about a location, but rather the source

of constraint (structure) that provides the dimensional basis for the
comparison. I was hoping that the discussion of

Sun and Frost’s work on neural mechanism would make this clear – but
obviously not.

It was probably a mistake to send this to the CSGNet. It was
written for a different audience – and now it is becoming

painfully clear that the missing context is leading to more
“noise” than “signal.”

I have no intention of debating the “Gibsonian” approach with
the CSGNet group. These comments are simply to

add context to the paper. If you think that Gibson is crap – I’m
sure that nothing I have to offer will change your

mind.

Sorry,

John

PS. Rick feel free to post these comments on the Net.

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 01:28 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

The central claim of the paper, as I
understand it, is that a control system brings intention, action, and
‘information’ together, not inside the organism in a comparator, but just
outside the organism, in the ‘optic array’. The idea seems to be
that this information in the environment is a patterning in the light,
presumably in the distribution of light of different wavelengths and
intensities, where it intersects the plane of the retina and impinges on
neural receptors.
The problem that this proposal addresses is the fact that
incommensurables cannot be usefully compared (“the comparison
process requires a common currency among the three sources of constraint:
intention, action, and information”).
According to this, if I understand correctly, the cloud labelled
‘perception’ in Fig. 3 (p. 80) is in the environment along with the
outputs of the ‘Action System’. The Criterion (reference signal) and
Comparator are inside the organism. The optical angle (indicated as theta) and expansion rate (theta-prime) are fed back as direct neural transforms, faithful reflections, of the corresponding properties of the optic array. If comparison takes place in the Comparator, and not in the optic array, then the above claim must hinge on this fidelity, and in addition the Criterion must also be a faithful transform of some property that is physically present in the optic array. In other words, in order to maintain the primacy of information in the environment, two out of the three factors (Criterion/reference and perceptual input) are constrained to be direct, faithful transforms of information that is present in the environment. No construction, only replication. However, no evidence is provided for the existence of the optic
array. So far as I can tell, reading the paper, it is simply presumed to
exist.
At 11:42 AM 9/24/2003 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:
However, the things that are said to exist in the optical array on the
retina can be known ONLY when they are viewed by a human brain – the
brain
of the person or animal doing the behaving, and the brain of the
observer/analyst who is speaking of information, value, and action. They
do
not exist in the physical light distribution itself, as the appropriate
theories of physics would inform us. The optic array and all its
attributes
exists only inside the brain that receives the optical intensity signals.

  1. Patterning that is said to exist in the optical array on the retina
    can be known only when perceived.

  2. No such patterning exists in the distribution of light where it
    intersects the plane of the retina. There is no such optical array on the
    retina.
    The step from knowledge (1) to existence (2) is not well supported. You
    invoke appropriate theories of physics. This strikes me as the point in
    your argument in most need of strengthening, perhaps only by briefly
    paraphrasing relevant principles of optics and stating how they apply.
    Conversely, the Gibsonian claim that the optical array does exist
    also has to be supported, and even more so
    the critical point of “direct perception” … that the
    neural medium does not introduce additional constraints
    This amounts to a denial of constructivism, a claim that the patterning
    of the neural signals from the retina is a faithful replica of the
    patterning in the light impinging on the retina, the optic array. The
    basis for these claims must go beyond the evidence given directly by the
    experience of visual perception, just as the science of optics does. For
    the first claim, we cannot assume that the patterning is there because
    that is what we see. There must be independent sources of evidence for
    it. For the second, to show that none of the attributes of visual
    perception are constructed by the nervous system one must demonstrate
    that they are all present in the evidence for the first claim. Has this
    been done?
    The Gibsonian claim as I understand it is that information commonly
    considered to be in the nervous systems of organisms is in fact in the
    environment. I shouldn’t be surprised if this has turned out to be a
    difficult position to maintain. The strategy here of placing that
    information on the retina just prior to its conversion to neural signals
    strikes me as the last stages of retreat. You can’t get any farther from
    the environment than at the very surface of sensory receptors. One
    possible line of questioning is, how does this generalize across other
    sensory modalities? Is there an olfactory array, an auditory array, a
    gustatory array?
    Earlier, you say:
    the issue here is not the veridicality of
    perceptions; that remains an open question with answers that vary with
    circumstances. The issue is that of modeling an organism which has no
    view
    of the world independent of its perceptions – and that includes
    organisms
    like you, and me, and Gibson, and Flach.
    This seems to me a bit wide of its target. If I understand correctly, the
    Gibsonians are focusing here on their model of the environment, with
    their model of the organism somewhat in the background or perhaps even
    deferred. (Note here the low expectations of models as mere analogies, on
    the last page of the paper.) The claim seems to be that with their
    superior model of the environment a simpler model of the organism is
    possible. If the patterning is truly in the environment (just at the
    point where the environment impinges on sensory inputs) then the nervous
    system only has to transform that patterning to a directly correspondent
    neural encoding that faithfully replicates the patterning, and pass it
    along without loss or distortion for further cognitive processing. I may
    have this wrong, and if I have read too superficially I apologize.
    Now, to turn the argument on its head, if two out of three factors
    (perceptual input and reference input or Criterion) are within the
    organism, and expressed in the same terms, actions clearly are not. How
    do you get actions to be in units commensurate with neural signals
    representing, say, optical angle? Indeed, how does the difference
    between two like signals map onto actions? In this case, the difference
    also represents and optical angle. Presumably, that maps to position
    control, either of the object, or of the observing eye, or both. And as
    to how it comes about, the best answer seems to be millennia of
    variability across individuals, in which some individuals were more
    successful in bringing genetic heirs to maturity than others. This is of
    course the same means by which perceptual signals have been brought into
    conformity (as we suppose) with the environment. Sufficiently, at least,
    for our continued progenitive success.
    So it is incumbent on the Gibsonian side to demonstrate not only
    that any of this is present as information in the environment, but
    also why it even needs to be. This seems so far only to have been an
    assumption as something self evident.

     /Bruce Nevin
    

John
M. Flach

Professor, Department of Psychology

Wright State University

3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.

Dayton, OH 45435-0001

Phone: (937) 775-2391

Fax: (937) 775-3347

www.psych.wright.edu

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” Mark Twain

I confess that I don't know enough to warrant a judgement that "Gibson is crap", and the appearance of such judgement is a poor performance on my part, for which I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification of 'indexical'. It seems more or less equivalent to the notion of a transform or a correspondence, in the sense that I meant, and seems (appropriately) to be limited to scalar variables.

An example of an indexical relation it the relation between height in a column of mercury (sign) and temperature
(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a "symbolic" relation between neural structure and the external world. I'm sure some
aspects of cognition are symbolic -- but I believe that the success of any symbolic system depends on an indexical
foundation

Yes, this is what Bill meant when he said that at the lower levels of the perceptual hierarchy are analog variables, with 'digital' or symbolic variables only at the higher levels. He postulates a level of category perception above which everything is symbolic, and below which everything is analog. (I have questioned whether this might be rather a function based in associative memory. This would account for the promiscuity of inputs -- virtually any kind of perception is subject to categorization -- and for the speed and motility of ad hoc categorizing, exceeding what has been proposed for reorganization. Many other issues as well. But that's a digression here.)

the changing perspective at a moving observation point can be described mathematically

Unfortunately, this begs the question at issue: Whose changing perspective? As soon as you answer that question, you are talking about perception rather than the properties of the environment, or of light from the environment. An assumption that the investigator's perceptions are objective facts about the environment must be justified.

Each rod or cone on the retina sends one neural signal, corresponding to the intensity of light at that point. For that one sensor, there are no patterns, movements, angles, or rates. Anything more than point intensities is constructed by the nervous system farther in toward the brain and farther away from the retina.

So far as I can tell, the only evidence of such patterning is by means of perceptions constructed in this way. But again, I plead ignorance. I don't see any titles about optics or the physics of light among your references, but I won't pretend to judge a book (or article) entirely by its title. Perhaps you can paraphrase some relevant physical science that demonstrates the presence of, say, perspective or angular direction, in light energy as it passes through a plane. Obviously, one could position a light-reflective surface at that plane and observe an image reflected from it, but, just as obviously, that would beg the question.

Optical structure is not in the light "energy." It is a kinematic constraint, not a kinetic constraint. The structure arises from
the projection of surface discontinuities. In this sense, the light is simply a medium. Will you agree that there
are "lawful" visual mappings from the 3D world to a 2D picture plane. For example, the parallel road in the 3D world will converge
in the 2D projection. Is this relation in the light energy? Now, if you move the eye (for example) won't the projection
angle change in lawful ways consistent with the changing position of the eye -- if the eye moves up the projection angle
will narrow, if it moves down it will flare out. The lawful changes were first described by Langewiesche in the book
"Stick and Rudder" for example he shows that there is an indexical relation between the projected shape of the
runway and a pilots position on a glide slope -- too high is specified by a projection angle that is too narrow -- too low is
specified by a projection angle that is to fat -- etc. Langewiesche also describes how the position of the focus of
expansion below the horizon helps to specify position on the glide slope. Gibson, Olum, and Rosenblatt first described this
mathemtically (Note that Olum and Rosenblatt are a mathematician and physicist who figured prominently in research on
quantum mechanics). Also, you might look at work by Jans Koenderink who is a physicist who works on optical flow. There
is interesting parallels between shift in physics from particle to field theories of interaction -- you might think of the Gibsonian
approach as an attempt to move "stimulus" theory in psych from "particle" descriptions to "field" descriptions -- but
I'm sure that is more than you want.

The "physics" of optic flow (or dynamic perspective) are solid -- the question is whether or not it is a useful description
for psychology. I think it is! But many other disagree. I can live with that.

Again, I don't want to get in a debate over this and it is unfair to ask me to do a review of the literature for you -- if you
are interested in these issues there is ample published work that can make the case much better than I can
in an e-mail. Start with the citations in the paper.

The fact that a mathematical analysis of what is perceived suffices to generate an image that is perceived in the same way suffers from the same defect. The ineluctable modality of the perceptible (to extend, or distend, Joyce's comment in the character of Stephen Daedalus).

The question is not whether Gibson is right or wrong, but whether your model replicates the behavior of a living organism, which, as you rightly say at the end of your paper, occupies the place of honor. If you can construct a model that behaves just like a living organism with better than 99% fidelity, then the structure and function of that model very likely informs us about the structure and function of the organism. If such a model works by faithfully transmitting information from the environment to comparators, without constructing any information along the way, then that is pretty good evidence that the information is in the environment and is not a perceptual construct. Such a model is not just a so-so analogy that can serve as a metaphorical guide to further research, it is a close analog that can serve as scientific proof. Such are the research standards of this group.

Look at the JEP paper by Smith et al. or the work of Sun & Frost if you want to see some empirical evidence. Those papers also have
many pointers to the earlier empirical work. We are able to predict collision behavior -- both successes and errors quite well
with the optical model -- probably not 99% -- but when you have an alternative that does better we can quibble over the differences.

Short of that, it seems to me that the challenge to both of you is to get the persuasive testimony of our elder brother science, physics, on your side. This, so far, neither of you has done -- although I hasten to admit again that I have only read the titles of your references, John. Either of these would get away from a "yes it is" "no it isn't" disagreement about the proposition that the information is in the environment.

If it is not in the environment -- then where does it come from? And how does it just happen to match with the demands of surviving
in a real world -- or maybe there is only an imagined world. Then we can dispense with physics altogether.

John

    /Bruce
···

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:39 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

At 02:21 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

John M. Flach
Professor, Department of Psychology
Wright State University
3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.
Dayton, OH 45435-0001
Phone: (937) 775-2391
Fax: (937) 775-3347
www.psych.wright.edu

"The world is moved not only by the mighty shoves of the heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker" Helen Keller

The central claim of the paper, as I understand it, is that a control
system brings intention, action, and ‘information’ together, not inside
the organism in a comparator, but just outside the organism, in the
‘optic array’. The idea seems to be that this information in the
environment is a patterning in the light, presumably in the distribution
of light of different wavelengths and intensities, where it intersects
the plane of the retina and impinges on neural receptors.

The problem that this proposal addresses is the fact that
incommensurables cannot be usefully compared (“the comparison
process requires a common currency among the three sources of constraint:
intention, action, and information”).

According to this, if I understand correctly, the cloud labelled
‘perception’ in Fig. 3 (p. 80) is in the environment along with the
outputs of the ‘Action System’. The Criterion (reference signal) and
Comparator are inside the organism. The
optical angle (indicated as
theta)
and expansion rate
(theta-prime)
are fed back as direct neural transforms, faithful reflections, of the
corresponding properties of the optic array. If comparison takes place in
the Comparator, and not in the optic array, then the above claim must
hinge on this fidelity, and in addition the Criterion must also be a
faithful transform of some property that is physically present in the
optic array.

In other words, in order to maintain the primacy of information in the
environment, two out of the three factors (Criterion/reference and
perceptual input) are constrained to be direct, faithful transforms of
information that is present in the environment. No construction, only
replication.

However, no evidence is provided for the existence of the optic
array. So far as I can tell, reading the paper, it is simply presumed to
exist.

However, the things that are said to exist in
the optical array on the

retina can be known ONLY when they are viewed by a human brain – the
brain

of the person or animal doing the behaving, and the brain of the

observer/analyst who is speaking of information, value, and action. They
do

not exist in the physical light distribution itself, as the
appropriate

theories of physics would inform us. The optic array and all its
attributes

exists only inside the brain that receives the optical intensity
signals.

  1. Patterning that is said to exist in the optical array on the retina
    can be known only when perceived.
  2. No such patterning exists in the distribution of light where it
    intersects the plane of the retina. There is no such optical array on the
    retina.
    The step from knowledge (1) to existence (2) is not well supported. You
    invoke appropriate theories of physics. This strikes me as the point in
    your argument in most need of strengthening, perhaps only by briefly
    paraphrasing relevant principles of optics and stating how they
    apply.
    Conversely, the Gibsonian claim that the optical array does exist
    also has to be supported, and even more so

the critical point
of “direct perception” … that the

neural medium does not introduce additional
constraints

This amounts to a denial of constructivism, a claim that the patterning
of the neural signals from the retina is a faithful replica of the
patterning in the light impinging on the retina, the optic array. The
basis for these claims must go beyond the evidence given directly by the
experience of visual perception, just as the science of optics does. For
the first claim, we cannot assume that the patterning is there because
that is what we see. There must be independent sources of evidence for
it. For the second, to show that none of the attributes of visual
perception are constructed by the nervous system one must demonstrate
that they are all present in the evidence for the first claim. Has this
been done?

The Gibsonian claim as I understand it is that information commonly
considered to be in the nervous systems of organisms is in fact in the
environment. I shouldn’t be surprised if this has turned out to be a
difficult position to maintain. The strategy here of placing that
information on the retina just prior to its conversion to neural signals
strikes me as the last stages of retreat. You can’t get any farther from
the environment than at the very surface of sensory receptors. One
possible line of questioning is, how does this generalize across other
sensory modalities? Is there an olfactory array, an auditory array, a
gustatory array?

Earlier, you say:

the issue here is not the veridicality of

perceptions; that remains an open question with answers that vary
with

circumstances. The issue is that of modeling an organism which has no
view

of the world independent of its perceptions – and that includes
organisms

like you, and me, and Gibson, and Flach.

This seems to me a bit wide of its target. If I understand correctly, the
Gibsonians are focusing here on their model of the environment, with
their model of the organism somewhat in the background or perhaps even
deferred. (Note here the low expectations of models as mere analogies, on
the last page of the paper.) The claim seems to be that with their
superior model of the environment a simpler model of the organism is
possible. If the patterning is truly in the environment (just at the
point where the environment impinges on sensory inputs) then the nervous
system only has to transform that patterning to a directly correspondent
neural encoding that faithfully replicates the patterning, and pass it
along without loss or distortion for further cognitive processing. I may
have this wrong, and if I have read too superficially I apologize.
Now, to turn the argument on its head, if two out of three factors
(perceptual input and reference input or Criterion) are within the
organism, and expressed in the same terms, actions clearly are not. How
do you get actions to be in units commensurate with neural signals
representing, say, optical angle? Indeed, how does the difference
between two like signals map onto actions? In this case, the difference
also represents and optical angle. Presumably, that maps to position
control, either of the object, or of the observing eye, or both. And as
to how it comes about, the best answer seems to be millennia of
variability across individuals, in which some individuals were more
successful in bringing genetic heirs to maturity than others. This is of
course the same means by which perceptual signals have been brought into
conformity (as we suppose) with the environment. Sufficiently, at least,
for our continued progenitive success.
So it is incumbent on the Gibsonian side to demonstrate not only
that any of this is present as information in the environment, but
also why it even needs to be. This seems so far only to have been an
assumption as something self evident.

    /Bruce

Nevin

···

At 11:42 AM 9/24/2003 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2003.09.29.1605 MDT)]

It's a little hard to separate who wrote what in this post, but I'll just
stick to the issues.

The "optic array" is simply the 2D projection by a lens of the 3D world
onto the retina of each eye. So it does not explain perception, any more
than the external 3D world explains it. It is, of course, possible to show
that if the projected images can be controlled in the right way, there will
(most likely) be control of corresponding elements or aspects of the
external world, since the images can be altered only by altering the
elements or aspects of the world on which they depend. I have assumed this
elementary fact from the very start of PCT, 50 years ago. This is not even
a theory of perception or behavior: it's just a statement of the facts of
geometrical optics. Something similar applies in every sensory modality.

Of course in the optic array there are no perceptions: there are
distributions of light intensity. As you, Bruce, point out, no sensory
receptor can detect anything but the intensity of the light it absorbs.
Just inside the nervous system, therefore, there is a set of intensity
signals, each signal indicating some function of intensities over a small
area of the retina. It's not as simple as a TV camera, but it's close.

Now we can _begin_ to theorize about how the brain perceives and controls.
HPCT begins at this point. I don't need to elaborate on that.

I have no argument with statements to the effect that if a pilot keeps the
image on the retina in a certain condition, the flight path for landing
will be correct. I mean, what else could anyone propose? Unfortunately,
it''s all too easy for the person offering such a "theory" to forget that
he is looking at the same pictures that the pilot is looking at, and fail
to realize that the only reason he can recognize and describe the shapes
and their relationships is that he is using the same sort of human
perceptual system that the pilot is using. By doing this, he is overlooking
the whole subject of perception.

If this is really the big crucial issue that has been separating
engineering psychology from PCT, all I can say is that I am sorry to have
wasted so much of my time on it. I dealt with those issues in the 1950s.
It's rotten to think that this sort of kindergarten problem could have
created such huge obstacles.

I think John Flach has served notice that he is not about to change
anything important about his thinking and doesn't wish to be put in a
position where he might have to do so. I am glad to have learned from him
something about manipulating frequency-dommain equations, but aside from
that, I have no wish to remain in the 1950s.

Bill P.

it is not “where” the information
comes together that is the issue – it is the “units” of the
information. I am simply claiming that the units are indexically related
to structure in the array. Whether the comparison happens in the
head, in the muscles, in the eye, or in the air is irrelevant to me.

I see, now. I jumped to an unwarranted conclusion. You proposed that the
common units for comparison are located in the optic array. That seemed
to me to entail an assertion about where the comparison takes place,
since units measurable in the optic array are not units physically
present in the nervous system. Indexicality is not identity.
But what you are saying is that the controlled variables can best be
specified in terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. (This of
course ignores parallax information from binocular vision, but set that
aside.) PCT would agree with you in specifying the relevant variables in
terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. This is indeed what Rick
does with his model of ball catching, and it’s how the little man works.
It looks to me like a case of somewhat turbulent agreement.
I think the problems arise with the window dressing of interpretation. I
appreciate the problems of presenting ideas within a field where terms
and presuppositions are well established.
Your paper addresses a problem of incommensurate units. In a PCT model,
no problem of incommensurate units arise. Your paper proposes that the
‘common currency’ of collision avoidance is ‘the structure in the optic
array’. PCT says that the ‘common currency’ is the neural signals
(subjectively experienced as perceptions) that are constructed in the
perceptual control hierarchy.
Of course I can’t quarrel with ‘the structure in the optic array’. I
can’t argue for or against it, because the only evidence is in
perceptions, either mine or those reported by other investigators. None
of us has access to the Ding an sich – all talk of ‘direct
perception’ notwithstanding.
And of course this structure in the optic array has an indexical relation
to structure in the 3D environment, expressed as a geometric projection
onto a (curved) plane. All that you say about angular relations,
divergence, convergence, perspective geometry, projections from 3D space
to a plane, and so on, is not in question.
Perceptions constructed in the perceptual control hierarchy also have
(normally) an indexical relation to structures in the optic array, so,
a fortiori, these perceptions (normally) have an indexical
relation to structure in the 3D environment. (More on that ‘normally’
below.)

If [this information] is not in the
environment – then where does it come from? And how does it just happen
to match with the demands of surviving

in a real world

Our perceptions are veridical (within the limits of sensory inputs, and
modulo illusions) because evolution is an efficient filter, eliminating
from our genetic inheritance, and consequently from our epigenic
development, any capacity to construct perceptions markedly differently
from the countless generations of vertebrates, mammals, primates,
hominids, and humans who have (among other things) successfully avoided
collisions and brought progeny (our ancestors) to maturity. And this is
of course the answer – as I said before – to your question quoted
above.
The match of perceptions to environment is not achieved by the
environment implanting information, it is achieved by the organism
constructing information in a way that has always worked before, and
projecting that construct onto the environment. Of course, the
information is not constructed out of nothing. There are inputs from the
environment to the sensory organs. But all we know of those inputs, we
know by perceiving them. When we look for the sources of what we see, all
we see is what we see. We infer facts, and we develop theories, and we
test those theories, but all of that, too, is in the realm of controlled
perceptions.
The unavailability of the Ding and sich ‘behind’ our perceptions
has ramifications that are not easy to sort out. But it is not the case
that the only choices are either naive realism or the (reductio ad
absurdam
) proposition that it’s all imaginary.

The constructs of science are more sophisticated and use instrumental
extensions of our ordinary perceptions, but we still have no access to
the environment save through our perceptions.

In the indexical relation of ‘information in the optic array’ to
perceptions, three problems come to mind:

  1. Only the simplest of visual perceptions, light intensities, are a
    direct mapping from the optic array to the nervous system. All the rest
    are constructed.

  2. Sometimes, information in our perceptions is not present in the optic
    array.

  3. Sometimes, information in the optic array is not present in
    perceptions.

(I can detail these if they are unclear, but I am sure you can think of
examples.)

Taken together, these mandate that the terms of comparison for intent,
action, and information (i.e. input perception) must all be internal to
the organism. Most importantly for this conversation, into which I’ve
intruded awkwardly, adopting this position is at no cost to your modeling
efforts, since, of the information in the optic array, precisely all and
only those parts that are relevant are present as information in the
perceptual signals inside the organism. Indeed, this must be so, for us
to know that it is present in the optic array.

    /Bruce

Nevin

···

At 04:12 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:39 PM, > Bruce Nevin wrote:

I confess that I don’t know enough to warrant
a judgement that “Gibson is crap”, and the appearance of such
judgement is a poor performance on my part, for which I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification of ‘indexical’. It seems more or less
equivalent to the notion of a transform or a correspondence, in the sense
that I meant, and seems (appropriately) to be limited to scalar
variables.

An example of an indexical relation it the relation between height in a
column of mercury (sign) and temperature

(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a “symbolic”
relation between neural structure and the external world. I’m sure
some

aspects of cognition are symbolic – but I believe that the success of
any symbolic system depends on an indexical

foundation

Yes, this is what Bill meant when he said that at the lower levels of the
perceptual hierarchy are analog variables, with ‘digital’ or symbolic
variables only at the higher levels. He postulates a level of category
perception above which everything is symbolic, and below which everything
is analog. (I have questioned whether this might be rather a function
based in associative memory. This would account for the promiscuity of
inputs – virtually any kind of perception is subject to categorization
– and for the speed and motility of ad hoc categorizing, exceeding what
has been proposed for reorganization. Many other issues as well. But
that’s a digression here.)

the changing perspective at a moving observation point can be described
mathematically

Unfortunately, this begs the question at issue: Whose changing
perspective? As soon as you answer that question, you are talking about
perception rather than the properties of the environment, or of light
from the environment. An assumption that the investigator’s perceptions
are objective facts about the environment must be justified.

Each rod or cone on the retina sends one neural signal, corresponding to
the intensity of light at that point. For that one sensor, there are no
patterns, movements, angles, or rates. Anything more than point
intensities is constructed by the nervous system farther in toward the
brain and farther away from the retina.

So far as I can tell, the only evidence of such patterning is by means of
perceptions constructed in this way. But again, I plead ignorance. I
don’t see any titles about optics or the physics of light among your
references, but I won’t pretend to judge a book (or article) entirely by
its title. Perhaps you can paraphrase some relevant physical science that
demonstrates the presence of, say, perspective or angular direction, in
light energy as it passes through a plane. Obviously, one could position
a light-reflective surface at that plane and observe an image reflected
from it, but, just as obviously, that would beg the question.

Optical structure is not in the light “energy.” It is a
kinematic constraint, not a kinetic constraint. The structure
arises from

the projection of surface discontinuities. In this sense, the light
is simply a medium. Will you agree that there

are “lawful” visual mappings from the 3D world to a 2D picture
plane. For example, the parallel road in the 3D world will converge

in the 2D projection. Is this relation in the light energy?
Now, if you move the eye (for example) won’t the projection

angle change in lawful ways consistent with the changing position of the
eye – if the eye moves up the projection angle

will narrow, if it moves down it will flare out. The lawful changes
were first described by Langewiesche in the book

“Stick and Rudder” for example he shows that there is an
indexical relation between the projected shape of the

runway and a pilots position on a glide slope – too high is specified by
a projection angle that is too narrow – too low is

specified by a projection angle that is to fat – etc. Langewiesche
also describes how the position of the focus of

expansion below the horizon helps to specify position on the glide
slope. Gibson, Olum, and Rosenblatt first described this

mathemtically (Note that Olum and Rosenblatt are a mathematician and
physicist who figured prominently in research on

quantum mechanics). Also, you might look at work by Jans Koenderink
who is a physicist who works on optical flow. There

is interesting parallels between shift in physics from particle to field
theories of interaction – you might think of the Gibsonian

approach as an attempt to move “stimulus” theory in psych from
“particle” descriptions to “field” descriptions –
but

I’m sure that is more than you want.

The “physics” of optic flow (or dynamic perspective) are solid
– the question is whether or not it is a useful description

for psychology. I think it is! But many other disagree.
I can live with that.

Again, I don’t want to get in a debate over this and it is unfair to ask
me to do a review of the literature for you – if you

are interested in these issues there is ample published work that can
make the case much better than I can

in an e-mail. Start with the citations in the paper.

The fact that a mathematical analysis of what
is perceived suffices to generate an image that is perceived in the same
way suffers from the same defect. The ineluctable modality of the
perceptible (to extend, or distend, Joyce’s comment in the character of
Stephen Daedalus).

The question is not whether Gibson is right or wrong, but whether your
model replicates the behavior of a living organism, which, as you rightly
say at the end of your paper, occupies the place of honor. If you can
construct a model that behaves just like a living organism with better
than 99% fidelity, then the structure and function of that model very
likely informs us about the structure and function of the organism. If
such a model works by faithfully transmitting information from the
environment to comparators, without constructing any information along
the way, then that is pretty good evidence that the information is in the
environment and is not a perceptual construct. Such a model is not just a
so-so analogy that can serve as a metaphorical guide to further research,
it is a close analog that can serve as scientific proof. Such are the
research standards of this group.

Look at the JEP paper by Smith et al. or the work of Sun & Frost if
you want to see some empirical evidence. Those papers also have

many pointers to the earlier empirical work. We are able to predict
collision behavior – both successes and errors quite well

with the optical model – probably not 99% – but when you have an
alternative that does better we can quibble over the differences.

Short of that, it seems to me that the
challenge to both of you is to get the persuasive testimony of our elder
brother science, physics, on your side. This, so far, neither of you has
done – although I hasten to admit again that I have only read the titles
of your references, John. Either of these would get away from a “yes
it is” “no it isn’t” disagreement about the proposition
that the information is in the environment.

If it is not in the environment – then where does it come from?
And how does it just happen to match with the demands of surviving

in a real world – or maybe there is only an imagined world. Then we can
dispense with physics altogether.

John

/Bruce

At 02:21 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:
John M. Flach

Professor, Department of Psychology

Wright State University

3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.

Dayton, OH 45435-0001

Phone: (937) 775-2391

Fax: (937) 775-3347

www.psych.wright.edu

“The world is moved not only by the mighty shoves of the heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker” Helen Keller

Bruce,

I think we are quibbling over language. There are many
qualifications in the paper that I had hoped would set the
context. I think that many of the statements that have
been quoted back to me are taken out of context. I am not
a radical realist -- I am a pragmatist. I believe that actions have
real consequences -- and I believe that the control loop is closed
through an objective reality (the road and obstacles on the highway
are not imaginary) -- they exist whether I see them or not. I am interested
in how perceptual information specifies those objects in a way that allows
an animal to skillfully navigate without collision.

As a pragmatist I believe that there is an external world -- but that there is
no single "true world" -- that is, there are many valid ways to see the
external world -- there are many different "ecologies." If you don't like Gibson
I recommend von Uxkull (and his concept of Umwelt).

I went around this tree with Bill over a year ago -- with little progress.

I thought that my work might be of some interest to the PCT group --
but obviously this thought was based on my "kindergarden" view
[Bill's words] of both psychology and control.

Anyway, I appreciate you efforts to find something of value
in the work.

John

···

On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

it is not "where" the information comes together that is the issue -- it is the "units" of the information. I am simply claiming that the units are indexically related to structure in the array. Whether the comparison happens in the head, in the muscles, in the eye, or in the air is irrelevant to me.

I see, now. I jumped to an unwarranted conclusion. You proposed that the common units for comparison are located in the optic array. That seemed to me to entail an assertion about where the comparison takes place, since units measurable in the optic array are not units physically present in the nervous system. Indexicality is not identity.

But what you are saying is that the controlled variables can best be specified in terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. (This of course ignores parallax information from binocular vision, but set that aside.) PCT would agree with you in specifying the relevant variables in terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. This is indeed what Rick does with his model of ball catching, and it's how the little man works. It looks to me like a case of somewhat turbulent agreement.

I think the problems arise with the window dressing of interpretation. I appreciate the problems of presenting ideas within a field where terms and presuppositions are well established.

Your paper addresses a problem of incommensurate units. In a PCT model, no problem of incommensurate units arise. Your paper proposes that the 'common currency' of collision avoidance is 'the structure in the optic array'. PCT says that the 'common currency' is the neural signals (subjectively experienced as perceptions) that are constructed in the perceptual control hierarchy.

Of course I can't quarrel with 'the structure in the optic array'. I can't argue for or against it, because the only evidence is in perceptions, either mine or those reported by other investigators. None of us has access to the Ding an sich -- all talk of 'direct perception' notwithstanding.

And of course this structure in the optic array has an indexical relation to structure in the 3D environment, expressed as a geometric projection onto a (curved) plane. All that you say about angular relations, divergence, convergence, perspective geometry, projections from 3D space to a plane, and so on, is not in question.

Perceptions constructed in the perceptual control hierarchy also have (normally) an indexical relation to structures in the optic array, so, a fortiori, these perceptions (normally) have an indexical relation to structure in the 3D environment. (More on that 'normally' below.)

If [this information] is not in the environment -- then where does it come from? And how does it just happen to match with the demands of surviving
in a real world

Our perceptions are veridical (within the limits of sensory inputs, and modulo illusions) because evolution is an efficient filter, eliminating from our genetic inheritance, and consequently from our epigenic development, any capacity to construct perceptions markedly differently from the countless generations of vertebrates, mammals, primates, hominids, and humans who have (among other things) successfully avoided collisions and brought progeny (our ancestors) to maturity. And this is of course the answer -- as I said before -- to your question quoted above.

The match of perceptions to environment is not achieved by the environment implanting information, it is achieved by the organism constructing information in a way that has always worked before, and projecting that construct onto the environment. Of course, the information is not constructed out of nothing. There are inputs from the environment to the sensory organs. But all we know of those inputs, we know by perceiving them. When we look for the sources of what we see, all we see is what we see. We infer facts, and we develop theories, and we test those theories, but all of that, too, is in the realm of controlled perceptions.

The unavailability of the Ding and sich 'behind' our perceptions has ramifications that are not easy to sort out. But it is not the case that the only choices are either naive realism or the (reductio ad absurdam) proposition that it's all imaginary.

The constructs of science are more sophisticated and use instrumental extensions of our ordinary perceptions, but we still have no access to the environment save through our perceptions.

In the indexical relation of 'information in the optic array' to perceptions, three problems come to mind:

1. Only the simplest of visual perceptions, light intensities, are a direct mapping from the optic array to the nervous system. All the rest are constructed.

2. Sometimes, information in our perceptions is not present in the optic array.

3. Sometimes, information in the optic array is not present in perceptions.

(I can detail these if they are unclear, but I am sure you can think of examples.)

Taken together, these mandate that the terms of comparison for intent, action, and information (i.e. input perception) must all be internal to the organism. Most importantly for this conversation, into which I've intruded awkwardly, adopting this position is at no cost to your modeling efforts, since, of the information in the optic array, precisely all and only those parts that are relevant are present as information in the perceptual signals inside the organism. Indeed, this must be so, for us to know that it is present in the optic array.

    /Bruce Nevin

At 04:12 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:39 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

I confess that I don't know enough to warrant a judgement that "Gibson is crap", and the appearance of such judgement is a poor performance on my part, for which I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification of 'indexical'. It seems more or less equivalent to the notion of a transform or a correspondence, in the sense that I meant, and seems (appropriately) to be limited to scalar variables.

An example of an indexical relation it the relation between height in a column of mercury (sign) and temperature
(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a "symbolic" relation between neural structure and the external world. I'm sure some
aspects of cognition are symbolic -- but I believe that the success of any symbolic system depends on an indexical
foundation

Yes, this is what Bill meant when he said that at the lower levels of the perceptual hierarchy are analog variables, with 'digital' or symbolic variables only at the higher levels. He postulates a level of category perception above which everything is symbolic, and below which everything is analog. (I have questioned whether this might be rather a function based in associative memory. This would account for the promiscuity of inputs -- virtually any kind of perception is subject to categorization -- and for the speed and motility of ad hoc categorizing, exceeding what has been proposed for reorganization. Many other issues as well. But that's a digression here.)

the changing perspective at a moving observation point can be described mathematically

Unfortunately, this begs the question at issue: Whose changing perspective? As soon as you answer that question, you are talking about perception rather than the properties of the environment, or of light from the environment. An assumption that the investigator's perceptions are objective facts about the environment must be justified.

Each rod or cone on the retina sends one neural signal, corresponding to the intensity of light at that point. For that one sensor, there are no patterns, movements, angles, or rates. Anything more than point intensities is constructed by the nervous system farther in toward the brain and farther away from the retina.

So far as I can tell, the only evidence of such patterning is by means of perceptions constructed in this way. But again, I plead ignorance. I don't see any titles about optics or the physics of light among your references, but I won't pretend to judge a book (or article) entirely by its title. Perhaps you can paraphrase some relevant physical science that demonstrates the presence of, say, perspective or angular direction, in light energy as it passes through a plane. Obviously, one could position a light-reflective surface at that plane and observe an image reflected from it, but, just as obviously, that would beg the question.

Optical structure is not in the light "energy." It is a kinematic constraint, not a kinetic constraint. The structure arises from
the projection of surface discontinuities. In this sense, the light is simply a medium. Will you agree that there
are "lawful" visual mappings from the 3D world to a 2D picture plane. For example, the parallel road in the 3D world will converge
in the 2D projection. Is this relation in the light energy? Now, if you move the eye (for example) won't the projection
angle change in lawful ways consistent with the changing position of the eye -- if the eye moves up the projection angle
will narrow, if it moves down it will flare out. The lawful changes were first described by Langewiesche in the book
"Stick and Rudder" for example he shows that there is an indexical relation between the projected shape of the
runway and a pilots position on a glide slope -- too high is specified by a projection angle that is too narrow -- too low is
specified by a projection angle that is to fat -- etc. Langewiesche also describes how the position of the focus of
expansion below the horizon helps to specify position on the glide slope. Gibson, Olum, and Rosenblatt first described this
mathemtically (Note that Olum and Rosenblatt are a mathematician and physicist who figured prominently in research on
quantum mechanics). Also, you might look at work by Jans Koenderink who is a physicist who works on optical flow. There
is interesting parallels between shift in physics from particle to field theories of interaction -- you might think of the Gibsonian
approach as an attempt to move "stimulus" theory in psych from "particle" descriptions to "field" descriptions -- but
I'm sure that is more than you want.

The "physics" of optic flow (or dynamic perspective) are solid -- the question is whether or not it is a useful description
for psychology. I think it is! But many other disagree. I can live with that.

Again, I don't want to get in a debate over this and it is unfair to ask me to do a review of the literature for you -- if you
are interested in these issues there is ample published work that can make the case much better than I can
in an e-mail. Start with the citations in the paper.

The fact that a mathematical analysis of what is perceived suffices to generate an image that is perceived in the same way suffers from the same defect. The ineluctable modality of the perceptible (to extend, or distend, Joyce's comment in the character of Stephen Daedalus).

The question is not whether Gibson is right or wrong, but whether your model replicates the behavior of a living organism, which, as you rightly say at the end of your paper, occupies the place of honor. If you can construct a model that behaves just like a living organism with better than 99% fidelity, then the structure and function of that model very likely informs us about the structure and function of the organism. If such a model works by faithfully transmitting information from the environment to comparators, without constructing any information along the way, then that is pretty good evidence that the information is in the environment and is not a perceptual construct. Such a model is not just a so-so analogy that can serve as a metaphorical guide to further research, it is a close analog that can serve as scientific proof. Such are the research standards of this group.

Look at the JEP paper by Smith et al. or the work of Sun & Frost if you want to see some empirical evidence. Those papers also have
many pointers to the earlier empirical work. We are able to predict collision behavior -- both successes and errors quite well
with the optical model -- probably not 99% -- but when you have an alternative that does better we can quibble over the differences.

Short of that, it seems to me that the challenge to both of you is to get the persuasive testimony of our elder brother science, physics, on your side. This, so far, neither of you has done -- although I hasten to admit again that I have only read the titles of your references, John. Either of these would get away from a "yes it is" "no it isn't" disagreement about the proposition that the information is in the environment.

If it is not in the environment -- then where does it come from? And how does it just happen to match with the demands of surviving
in a real world -- or maybe there is only an imagined world. Then we can dispense with physics altogether.

John

    /Bruce

At 02:21 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

John M. Flach
Professor, Department of Psychology
Wright State University
3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.
Dayton, OH 45435-0001
Phone: (937) 775-2391
Fax: (937) 775-3347
www.psych.wright.edu

"The world is moved not only by the mighty shoves of the heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker" Helen Keller

</blockquote></x-html>

John M. Flach
Professor, Department of Psychology
Wright State University
3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.
Dayton, OH 45435-0001
Phone: (937) 775-2391
Fax: (937) 775-3347
www.psych.wright.edu

"Science is built of facts the way a house is built of bricks, but an accumulation of facts is no more science than a pile of bricks is a house" Henri Poincare

Hi, Bruce --

[my computer said this wasn't really sent -- ignore if you did get it]

A really good post to John Flach -- I am pleased to know that PCT will be in your hands for some time to come. Unfortunately, I think Flach is a lost cause; he pretty much said so the last we heard from him. I've tried sending him a reply several times, but my mail to him bounces. You have laid out what his problem is, but he doesn't want to know about it. If he were at all willing to be persuaded you post would have done it, In retrospect, I'm not sure how close he ever came to getting the PCT view.

Thanks for a good try.

Bill

Bruce,

I think we are quibbling over language.

So it seems.

However, the focal issue for PCT is not the nature of the environment,
but the structure of the organism. Our perceptual universe is a theory of
reality developed and tested by biological evolution. Whatever is in the
environment is, so far as we are able to perceive it, an artifact of that
theory, projected onto the environment.

Behaviorally, we have no alternative to the theory given to us by Mama
Evolution: we must act as though the structures we perceive are the
reality that we perceive, we cannot do otherwise and conduct our lives.
But science is not so bound.

Where quibbles end is in the building of a working model. Place a
generative model in the environment (or a simulation of such a model in a
simulated environment) and measure its behavior exactly as you previously
measured the behavior of the organism that you are modeling. If the
model’s behavior departs more than a small fraction of 1% from that of
the organism, something needs to be fixed. When the model (or simulation)
replicates living behavior reliably and with extreme fidelity, then the
structure and functioning of the model informs you about the structure
and functioning of the organism. The structure and functioning of the
organism are otherwise largely inaccessible to you, since the processes
of investigation are disruptive. The structure and functioning of the
model, however, by this point are quite well understood.

It is on this rock that your conversation foundered.

    /B
···

At 11:00 AM 10/2/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

There are many

qualifications in the paper that I had hoped would set the

context. I think that many of the statements that have

been quoted back to me are taken out of context. I am not

a radical realist – I am a pragmatist. I believe that actions have

real consequences – and I believe that the control loop is closed

through an objective reality (the road and obstacles on the highway

are not imaginary) – they exist whether I see them or not. I am
interested

in how perceptual information specifies those objects in a way that
allows

an animal to skillfully navigate without collision.

As a pragmatist I believe that there is an external world – but that
there is

no single “true world” – that is, there are many valid
ways to see the

external world – there are many different “ecologies.”
If you don’t like Gibson

I recommend von Uxkull (and his concept of Umwelt).

I went around this tree with Bill over a year ago – with little
progress.

I thought that my work might be of some interest to the PCT group –

but obviously this thought was based on my “kindergarden” view

[Bill’s words] of both psychology and control.

Anyway, I appreciate you efforts to find something of value

in the work.

John

On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

it is not “where” the information
comes together that is the issue – it is the “units” of the
information. I am simply claiming that the units are indexically related
to structure in the array. Whether the comparison happens in the
head, in the muscles, in the eye, or in the air is irrelevant to me.
I see, now. I jumped to an unwarranted conclusion. You proposed that the
common units for comparison are located in the optic array. That seemed
to me to entail an assertion about where the comparison takes place,
since units measurable in the optic array are not units physically
present in the nervous system. Indexicality is not identity.
But what you are saying is that the controlled variables can best be
specified in terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. (This of
course ignores parallax information from binocular vision, but set that
aside.) PCT would agree with you in specifying the relevant variables in
terms of a 2D image projected onto the retina. This is indeed what Rick
does with his model of ball catching, and it’s how the little man works.
It looks to me like a case of somewhat turbulent agreement.
I think the problems arise with the window dressing of interpretation. I
appreciate the problems of presenting ideas within a field where terms
and presuppositions are well established.
Your paper addresses a problem of incommensurate units. In a PCT model,
no problem of incommensurate units arise. Your paper proposes that the
‘common currency’ of collision avoidance is ‘the structure in the optic
array’. PCT says that the ‘common currency’ is the neural signals
(subjectively experienced as perceptions) that are constructed in the
perceptual control hierarchy.
Of course I can’t quarrel with ‘the structure in the optic array’. I
can’t argue for or against it, because the only evidence is in
perceptions, either mine or those reported by other investigators. None
of us has access to the Ding an sich – all talk of ‘direct
perception’ notwithstanding.
And of course this structure in the optic array has an indexical relation
to structure in the 3D environment, expressed as a geometric projection
onto a (curved) plane. All that you say about angular relations,
divergence, convergence, perspective geometry, projections from 3D space
to a plane, and so on, is not in question.
Perceptions constructed in the perceptual control hierarchy also have
(normally) an indexical relation to structures in the optic array, so,
a fortiori, these perceptions (normally) have an indexical
relation to structure in the 3D environment. (More on that ‘normally’
below.)
If [this information] is not in the environment – then where does it
come from? And how does it just happen to match with the demands of
surviving
in a real world
Our perceptions are veridical (within the limits of sensory inputs, and
modulo illusions) because evolution is an efficient filter, eliminating
from our genetic inheritance, and consequently from our epigenic
development, any capacity to construct perceptions markedly differently
from the countless generations of vertebrates, mammals, primates,
hominids, and humans who have (among other things) successfully avoided
collisions and brought progeny (our ancestors) to maturity. And this is
of course the answer – as I said before – to your question quoted
above.
The match of perceptions to environment is not achieved by the
environment implanting information, it is achieved by the organism
constructing information in a way that has always worked before, and
projecting that construct onto the environment. Of course, the
information is not constructed out of nothing. There are inputs from the
environment to the sensory organs. But all we know of those inputs, we
know by perceiving them. When we look for the sources of what we see, all
we see is what we see. We infer facts, and we develop theories, and we
test those theories, but all of that, too, is in the realm of controlled
perceptions.
The unavailability of the Ding and sich ‘behind’ our perceptions
has ramifications that are not easy to sort out. But it is not the case
that the only choices are either naive realism or the (reductio ad
absurdam
) proposition that it’s all imaginary.

The constructs of science are more sophisticated and use instrumental
extensions of our ordinary perceptions, but we still have no access to
the environment save through our perceptions.

In the indexical relation of ‘information in the optic array’ to
perceptions, three problems come to mind:

  1. Only the simplest of visual perceptions, light intensities, are a
    direct mapping from the optic array to the nervous system. All the rest
    are constructed.

  2. Sometimes, information in our perceptions is not present in the optic
    array.

  3. Sometimes, information in the optic array is not present in
    perceptions.

(I can detail these if they are unclear, but I am sure you can think of
examples.)

Taken together, these mandate that the terms of comparison for intent,
action, and information (i.e. input perception) must all be internal to
the organism. Most importantly for this conversation, into which I’ve
intruded awkwardly, adopting this position is at no cost to your modeling
efforts, since, of the information in the optic array, precisely all and
only those parts that are relevant are present as information in the
perceptual signals inside the organism. Indeed, this must be so, for us
to know that it is present in the optic array.

    /Bruce Nevin

At 04:12 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:39 PM, Bruce Nevin wrote:

I confess that I don’t know enough to warrant a judgement that
“Gibson is crap”, and the appearance of such judgement is a
poor performance on my part, for which I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification of ‘indexical’. It seems more or less
equivalent to the notion of a transform or a correspondence, in the sense
that I meant, and seems (appropriately) to be limited to scalar
variables.

An example of an indexical relation it the relation between height in a
column of mercury (sign) and temperature

(referent)]. Most of cog psych assumes a “symbolic”
relation between neural structure and the external world. I’m sure
some

aspects of cognition are symbolic – but I believe that the success of
any symbolic system depends on an indexical

foundation

Yes, this is what Bill meant when he said that at the lower levels of the
perceptual hierarchy are analog variables, with ‘digital’ or symbolic
variables only at the higher levels. He postulates a level of category
perception above which everything is symbolic, and below which everything
is analog. (I have questioned whether this might be rather a function
based in associative memory. This would account for the promiscuity of
inputs – virtually any kind of perception is subject to categorization
– and for the speed and motility of ad hoc categorizing, exceeding what
has been proposed for reorganization. Many other issues as well. But
that’s a digression here.)

the changing perspective at a moving observation point can be described
mathematically

Unfortunately, this begs the question at issue: Whose changing
perspective? As soon as you answer that question, you are talking about
perception rather than the properties of the environment, or of light
from the environment. An assumption that the investigator’s perceptions
are objective facts about the environment must be justified.

Each rod or cone on the retina sends one neural signal, corresponding to
the intensity of light at that point. For that one sensor, there are no
patterns, movements, angles, or rates. Anything more than point
intensities is constructed by the nervous system farther in toward the
brain and farther away from the retina.

So far as I can tell, the only evidence of such patterning is by means of
perceptions constructed in this way. But again, I plead ignorance. I
don’t see any titles about optics or the physics of light among your
references, but I won’t pretend to judge a book (or article) entirely by
its title. Perhaps you can paraphrase some relevant physical science that
demonstrates the presence of, say, perspective or angular direction, in
light energy as it passes through a plane. Obviously, one could position
a light-reflective surface at that plane and observe an image reflected
from it, but, just as obviously, that would beg the question.

Optical structure is not in the light “energy.” It is a
kinematic constraint, not a kinetic constraint. The structure
arises from

the projection of surface discontinuities. In this sense, the light
is simply a medium. Will you agree that there

are “lawful” visual mappings from the 3D world to a 2D picture
plane. For example, the parallel road in the 3D world will converge

in the 2D projection. Is this relation in the light energy?
Now, if you move the eye (for example) won’t the projection

angle change in lawful ways consistent with the changing position of the
eye – if the eye moves up the projection angle

will narrow, if it moves down it will flare out. The lawful changes
were first described by Langewiesche in the book

“Stick and Rudder” for example he shows that there is an
indexical relation between the projected shape of the

runway and a pilots position on a glide slope – too high is specified by
a projection angle that is too narrow – too low is

specified by a projection angle that is to fat – etc. Langewiesche
also describes how the position of the focus of

expansion below the horizon helps to specify position on the glide
slope. Gibson, Olum, and Rosenblatt first described this

mathemtically (Note that Olum and Rosenblatt are a mathematician and
physicist who figured prominently in research on

quantum mechanics). Also, you might look at work by Jans Koenderink
who is a physicist who works on optical flow. There

is interesting parallels between shift in physics from particle to field
theories of interaction – you might think of the Gibsonian

approach as an attempt to move “stimulus” theory in psych from
“particle” descriptions to “field” descriptions –
but

I’m sure that is more than you want.

The “physics” of optic flow (or dynamic perspective) are solid
– the question is whether or not it is a useful description

for psychology. I think it is! But many other disagree.
I can live with that.

Again, I don’t want to get in a debate over this and it is unfair to ask
me to do a review of the literature for you – if you

are interested in these issues there is ample published work that can
make the case much better than I can

in an e-mail. Start with the citations in the paper.

The fact that a mathematical analysis of what is perceived suffices to
generate an image that is perceived in the same way suffers from the same
defect. The ineluctable modality of the perceptible (to extend, or
distend, Joyce’s comment in the character of Stephen Daedalus).

The question is not whether Gibson is right or wrong, but whether your
model replicates the behavior of a living organism, which, as you rightly
say at the end of your paper, occupies the place of honor. If you can
construct a model that behaves just like a living organism with better
than 99% fidelity, then the structure and function of that model very
likely informs us about the structure and function of the organism. If
such a model works by faithfully transmitting information from the
environment to comparators, without constructing any information along
the way, then that is pretty good evidence that the information is in the
environment and is not a perceptual construct. Such a model is not just a
so-so analogy that can serve as a metaphorical guide to further research,
it is a close analog that can serve as scientific proof. Such are the
research standards of this group.

Look at the JEP paper by Smith et al. or the work of Sun & Frost if
you want to see some empirical evidence. Those papers also have

many pointers to the earlier empirical work. We are able to predict
collision behavior – both successes and errors quite well

with the optical model – probably not 99% – but when you have an
alternative that does better we can quibble over the differences.

Short of that, it seems to me that the challenge to both of you is to get
the persuasive testimony of our elder brother science, physics, on your
side. This, so far, neither of you has done – although I hasten to admit
again that I have only read the titles of your references, John. Either
of these would get away from a “yes it is” “no it
isn’t” disagreement about the proposition that the information is in
the environment.

If it is not in the environment – then where does it come from?
And how does it just happen to match with the demands of surviving

in a real world – or maybe there is only an imagined world. Then we can
dispense with physics altogether.

John

    /Bruce

At 02:21 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, John Flach wrote:

John M. Flach

Professor, Department of Psychology

Wright State University

3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.

Dayton, OH 45435-0001

Phone: (937) 775-2391

Fax: (937) 775-3347

www.psych.wright.edu

“The world is moved not only by the mighty shoves of the heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker” Helen Keller

John M. Flach

Professor, Department of Psychology

Wright State University

3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy.

Dayton, OH 45435-0001

Phone: (937) 775-2391

Fax: (937) 775-3347

www.psych.wright.edu

“Science is built of facts the way a house is built of bricks, but an accumulation of facts is no more science than a pile of bricks is a house” Henri Poincare