Come to Grips With This Rick

Richard_Marken2 · April 7, 2003, 5:56pm

[From Rick Marken (2003.04.07.1355)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.07.1500)–
I wish you could come to grips with
constraining your personal political and religious reference perceptions
to forums whose declared purpose relate to such perceptions.

What you perceive about the “war, Bush
or Israel” is of no particular interest to me.

So don’t read what I say about such things. My subject heads are pretty
clear about what’s in the posts.

What you discover
or percieve specifically about explaining human behavior is very valuable.
Aren’t politics and religion human behaviors?
It helps me understand
myself, what I perceive and what I do with my life and time.
Are politics and religion not part of yourself?
I believe Dag has
quite forcefully expressed his frustration with your need to offer your
opinions on the “decency” of other people or their life-work (agendas,
you might call them) on CSGNET when they are not solicited by anyone.
Yes. That was Dag’s unsolicited opinion. Which I replied to magnificently
(kindly and substantively), in case you didn’t notice.
But, I can assure
you, that your last two posts are of no interest to me.
That’s too bad. I thought they were pretty interesting.
I think the instances
where people have left the group (like Marc) in part over accusatory and
judgmental dialogue with you have come from this need of yours to express
your unsolicited opinion about what is good and bad in the world we experience.
Actually, Marc left because he hated my (and Bill’s and Wolfgang’s)
opinions about the war. No one accused him of anything or made personal
attacks (actually, the only personal attack I can recall was Marc’s terribly
insulting attack on Wolfgang).
Please, pretty please,
consider this and come to grips with this relatively simple concept Rick.
Post your head off on Bush or Israel or religion or RTP or the purpose
of public education on some forum wanting to debate that issue with you.
That would be mutually enjoyable and profitable.
PCT is a model of all human behavior. It applies to Bush’s behavior, Israel’s
behavior, religious behavior, RTP teacher behavior, public education behavior
and the behavior on CSGNet, among other things. Therefore, I personally
don’t think anything you mention in this paragraph – including the fact
that you mentioned it – is off limits on CSGNet. If you think what I say
is wrong please feel free to try to point out my errors. If you are offended
by what I say please feel free to point that out (as you have). But I don’t
plan to come to grips with the self-censorship you suggest. I think
it would be much easier for all of us if you could come to grips with the
delete key.
Best regards

Rick

···

–

Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.

Senior Behavioral Scientist

The RAND Corporation

PO Box 2138

1700 Main Street

Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138

Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971

Fax: 310-451-7018

E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · April 7, 2003, 7:42pm

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.07.1500)]

<I understand. I’m just trying to come to grips with this awful situation. I still

think our entry into the war was a terrible mistake. There was a wonderful column in the LA Times this morning by Gunter Grass about this. In case it you didn’t see it I’m posting it to CSGNet. Very moving.>

<So although US coercion was invoked unilaterally, it has (so far) been invoked

very effectively and if we actually behave like menches to the Iraqis (and

demonstrate a fair hand in the Middle East from now on) I think this otherwise

horrible war could work out for the best. This, of course, hinges on Bush et al

actually being decent people, which I think they are. Stupid, sure, but decent,

hopefully.>

I love you, man. I respect you for your dedication to PCT and your knowledge of HPCT. You are a tremendous contributor to CSGNET spending amounts of time on it I can never seem to find.

I wish you could come to grips with constraining your personal political and religious reference perceptions to forums whose declared purpose relate to such perceptions.

What you perceive about the “war, Bush or Israel” is of no particular interest to me. What you discover or percieve specifically about explaining human behavior is very valuable. It helps me understand myself, what I perceive and what I do with my life and time. That is why I enjoy being on the CSGNET.

There are times when your views on something you may know little about personally (like RTP) is inexorably entwined with PCT/HPCT and what that process, behavior or theory looks like using “PCT glasses.” So, I try to be tolerant about such instances as we need real life examples to discuss PCT/HPCT theory and application.

I can only speak for me. Perhaps others on CSGNET look to you for perspective and wisdom on exactly what perceptions are right or wrong, satisfying or disturbing, to you? If they find your view helpful in determining their own reference perceptions, they could ask you. I would just hope they would ask you privately for such input.

I believe Dag has quite forcefully expressed his frustration with your need to offer your opinions on the “decency” of other people or their life-work (agendas, you might call them) on CSGNET when they are not solicited by anyone.

Such discussions are fine among people who want to have them, perhaps informally after a CSG conference session or privately by E-mail. I get a lot of mail daily and have plenty of other things to do. I enjoy the posts on CSGNET so much, I tend to want to read them even if they are not dealing with a PCT topic that particularly catches my attention or interest (like Imitation and Smiles).

But, I can assure you, that your last two posts are of no interest to me. I could not care less what some author in the LA Times writes about America’s Core Values as seen through German eyes. Please come to grips with your need to post such material to CSGNET.

It would not only save time for me (and others who are not at all interested in such information on this forum), I think the instances where people have left the group (like Marc) in part over accusatory and judgmental dialogue with you have come from this need of yours to express your unsolicited opinion about what is good and bad in the world we experience.

Please, pretty please, consider this and come to grips with this relatively simple concept Rick. Post your head off on Bush or Israel or religion or RTP or the purpose of public education on some forum wanting to debate that issue with you. That would be mutually enjoyable and profitable.

Your opinion of how emotions, stress, or imatation fit in with PCT and its models or where system level references really come from and how are fertile and endless subjects that I would guess most members here would find of value.

Your fellow control system,

Kenny

Bruce_Gregory4 · April 7, 2003, 8:31pm

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0407.1632)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.07.1500)

Ever asked yourself why you control for "relevance" at such high gain?
Ever considered that many of us might be uninterested in your view of
Rick Marken's posts?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · April 7, 2003, 10:50pm

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.0407.1900)]

How would you know the level of gain in my control?

<Ever considered that many of us might be uninterested in your view of

Rick Marken’s posts?>

Sure. But, if so, why not just take Rick’s approach: use your Delete key instead of posting a quip?

Those who have an an error to correct about my request, or Rick’s posts and responses to people on this forum, can speak for themselves if they want.

Have you ever considered if anyone else cares about your need to police our “rationality” or who with whom you live?

Bruce_Gregory4 · April 7, 2003, 11:02pm

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0407.1902)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.0407.1900)

Sorry if I offended you.

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · April 7, 2003, 11:33pm

I think the instances where people have left the group (like Marc) in part over accusatory and judgmental dialogue with you have come from this need of yours to express your unsolicited opinion about what is good and bad in the world we experience.
[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.07.1900)]

Sure they are. I just don’t feel the need to post them to the CSGNET like you do knowing there are many different views held by the participants and they arrived at them without any help from you. Is it your hope to create a debate or a conflict when people here differ with your view of politics?

<Yes. That was Dag’s unsolicited opinion. Which I replied to magnificently (kindly and substantively), in case you didn’t notice.>

I noticed. You did respond kindly and substantively. I liked your response in content and style. Of course, I also agreed from day one that the “I see you have chosen” was probably not literally justified. But, I am not aware than anyone but you aprised your response as “magnificent.” That you have this perception is quite normal I suppose.

<That’s too bad. I thought they were pretty interesting.>

Sure your posts are interesting to you. Do you think all things that interest you are of interest to everyone else? Why not post briefly to CSGNET that you are changing your view of the Iraq war, or you read an article in the LA Times about America’s Core Values that you find interesting and if anyone is interested to contact you privately to explore it further?

Actually, Marc left because he hated my (and Bill’s and Wolfgang’s) opinions about the war. No one accused him of anything or made personal attacks (actually, the only personal attack I can recall was Marc’s terribly insulting attack on Wolfgang).

Is that what Marc told you? I agree Marc attacked Wolfgang. I feel Marc has historically gotten disturbed easily and could be insulting. I quit responding to him long ago for such reasons.

Now, if you don’t mind reading my statement again more carefully, you will see that I did not say you were accusatory or judgmental regarding Marc. I was in fact referring to you calling others, like President Bush, stupid in your discussions with Marc who obviously was disagreeing with your perceptions about politics.

Well, taking a dump is human behavior. Bashing people and calling them stupid is too. I guess you want to control what behavior you display on CSGNET without considering any side-effects it has on others, like me or Dag or whoever.

I did when I wanted to and I won’t when I don’t. We’re big boys. I will listen to what others think if you will?

Would that be un-American? Or would that be respectful of what others want from this CSGNET?

I use it almost every day. Why not let others speak for themselves?

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · April 7, 2003, 11:39pm

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.0407.1940)]

Your apology is gratefully accepted. Most of the time you point out some interesting PCT/HPCT perspectives here. I’ll save my Delete key more for Rick so he can keep writing his “magnificient” posts about his perceptions of dumb and dumber without offending me.