Comment on a blog post on PCT

CSGnet Archive CSG2017
1

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.1610)]

I receive posts from a blog called Slate Star Codex, which is apparently the project of a psychiatrist named Scott Alexander. I joined a while ago when I was told that there was some talk about PCT. Scott is aware of PCT, sees its relevance to his interests (in science, philosophy, medicine, politics and futurism) and apparently sees merit in it, to a degree. This is reflected in one of his latest posts where he compares PCT to a predictive processing (PP) model of behavior that was apparently featured in a book called “Surfing Uncertainty”. Scott wrote a very nice comparison of PCT and PP, noting that both are control models that contain the idea of a reference specification for a perceptual variable. And he faults PP for not acknowledging that PCT came up with this idea in the first place. But he also faults PCT for coming up with what he considers the almost comical idea that people control things like “love” and “communism”. I wrote a comment to Scott’s post in an attempt to address this concern: I think you will find it here:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

If you can get in to the site, you can find my comment by scrolling down (I’m called mindreadings). And you can read Scott’s original comment by scrolling up.Â

Best

Rick

···

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

2

[From Andrew Willett (2017.09.10.1955)]

Rick,

I am familiar with Clark’s book on Surfing Uncertainty. While Clark does not explicitly mention Powers, it is useful to note that Clark does cite Powers’ (B:CP first edition) in his book. Thanks for this post–I’m looking forward to reading more about Scott Alexander.

Best
Andrew Willett

···

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.1610)]

I receive posts from a blog called Slate Star Codex, which is apparently the project of a psychiatrist named Scott Alexander. I joined a while ago when I was told that there was some talk about PCT. Scott is aware of PCT, sees its relevance to his interests (in science, philosophy, medicine, politics and futurism) and apparently sees merit in it, to a degree. This is reflected in one of his latest posts where he compares PCT to a predictive processing (PP) model of behavior that was apparently featured in a book called “Surfing Uncertainty”. Scott wrote a very nice comparison of PCT and PP, noting that both are control models that contain the idea of a reference specification for a perceptual variable. And he faults PP for not acknowledging that PCT came up with this idea in the first place. But he also faults PCT for coming up with what he considers the almost comical idea that people control things like “love” and “communism”. I wrote a comment to Scott’s post in an attempt to address this concern: I think you will find it here:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

If you can get in to the site, you can find my comment by scrolling down (I’m called mindreadings). And you can read Scott’s original comment by scrolling up.Â

Best

Rick

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

–

3

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.0.10.22:27 ET)]

I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that (September 8, 2017 at 2:50 am) and several others of his, but nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

···

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.1610)]

I receive posts from a blog called Slate Star Codex, which is apparently the project of a psychiatrist named Scott Alexander. I joined a while ago when I was told that there was some talk about PCT. Scott is aware of PCT, sees its relevance to his interests (in science, philosophy, medicine, politics and futurism) and apparently sees merit in it, to a degree. This is reflected in one of his latest posts where he compares PCT to a predictive processing (PP) model of behavior that was apparently featured in a book called “Surfing Uncertainty”. Scott wrote a very nice comparison of PCT and PP, noting that both are control models that contain the idea of a reference specification for a perceptual variable. And he faults PP for not acknowledging that PCT came up with this idea in the first place. But he also faults PCT for coming up with what he considers the almost comical idea that people control things like “love” and “communism”. I wrote a comment to Scott’s post in an attempt to address this concern: I think you will find it here:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

If you can get in to the site, you can find my comment by scrolling down (I’m called mindreadings). And you can read Scott’s original comment by scrolling up.Â

Best

Rick

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

–

4

[Martin Taylor 2017.09.10.23.30]

Likewise.

Martin

···

On 2017/09/10 8:27 PM, Bruce Nevin
wrote:

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.0.10.22:27 ET)]

I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that ( September
8, 2017 at 2:50 am ) and several others of his, but
nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

      On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:08 PM,

Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com
wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.1610)]

            I receive posts from a blog called Slate Star Codex,

which is apparently the project of a psychiatrist named
Scott Alexander. I joined a while ago when I was told
that there was some talk about PCT. Scott is aware of
PCT, sees its relevance to his interests (in science,
philosophy, medicine, politics and futurism) and
apparently sees merit in it, to a degree. This is
reflected in one of his latest posts where he compares
PCT to a predictive processing (PP) model of behavior
that was apparently featured in a book called “Surfing
Uncertainty”. Scott wrote a very nice comparison of PCT
and PP, noting that both are control models that contain
the idea of a reference specification for a perceptual
variable. And he faults PP for not acknowledging that
PCT came up with this idea in the first place. But he
also faults PCT for coming up with what he considers the
almost comical idea that people control things like
“love” and “communism”. I wrote a comment to Scott’s
post in an attempt to address this concern: I think you
will find it here:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

              If you can get in to the site, you can find my

comment by scrolling down (I’m called mindreadings).
And you can read Scott’s original comment by scrolling
up.Â

Best

Rick

                                        Richard S.

MarkenÂ

                                            "Perfection

is achieved not when you
have nothing more to
add, but when you
have
nothing left to take
away.�
Â
           Â
   --Antoine de
Saint-Exupery

–

5

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.2215)]

···

[Martin Taylor 2017.09.10.23.30]

Bruce Nevin (2017.0.10.22:27 ET)]

BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that ( September
8, 2017 at 2:50 am ) and several others of his, but
nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

MT: Likewise

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful tomorrow.

BestÂ

Rick

–

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

6

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0920)]

···

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT related posts up there now. Again, I think you can get there by going to:

–

BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that ( September
8, 2017 at 2:50 am ) and several others of his, but
nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

MT: Likewise

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful tomorrow.

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

7

Oops, didn’t finish:

···

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0925)]

Â

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

Best

Rick

–

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful tomorrow.

MT: Likewise

BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that ( September
8, 2017 at 2:50 am ) and several others of his, but
nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT related posts up there now. Again, I think you can get there by going to:

–
Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

8

[From Dag Forssell (2017.09.11.0950 PDT)]

Obviously!

This is a blog, not an unmoderated email list. The blog owner gets to
review comments before they are posted. If inappropriate, the blog owner
has the option of sending comments to the trash can.

Best, Dag

slatestarcodex blog comment.pdf (49 KB)

···

At 09:26 AM 9/11/2017, you wrote:

Oops, didn’t finish:

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0925)]

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short
reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful
tomorrow.

MT: Likewise
BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that
(
September 8, 2017 at 2:50 am) and several others of his, but nothing
from ‘mindreadings’.

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star
Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up
there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see
Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT
related posts up there now. Again, I think you can get there by going
to:

Â


http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add,
but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
       Â
        --Antoine
de Saint-Exupery

–

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but
when you

have nothing left to take away.�

        Â
       --Antoine de
Saint-Exupery

9

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.1700)]

···

Dag Forssell (2017.09.11.0950 PDT)]

DF: Obviously!

DF: This is a blog, not an unmoderated email list. The blog owner gets to
review comments before they are posted. If inappropriate, the blog owner
has the option of sending comments to the trash can.

RM: Thanks! Then I guess a passed the audition;-) Though I wish you had told me last night. I got the messages from Bruce and Martin about not seeing my post during the intermission of a wonderful play called “The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime” so it was a little hard to concentrate on the second act, which included a mathematical proof as the finale.Â

Best

Rick

Best, Dag

At 09:26 AM 9/11/2017, you wrote:

Oops, didn’t finish:

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0925)]

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short
reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful
tomorrow.

MT: Likewise
BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that
(
September 8, 2017 at 2:50 am) and several others of his, but nothing
from ‘mindreadings’.

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star
Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up
there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see
Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT
related posts up there now. Again, I think you can get there by going
to:

Â


http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add,
but when you

have nothing left to take away.â€
       ÂÂ
        --Antoine
de Saint-Exupery

–

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but
when you

have nothing left to take away.â€

        ÂÂ
       --Antoine de
Saint-Exupery

–
Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

10

Hm, he,he

I’ve read what you wrote Rick. But iyou wrote is RCT again :

  1.   Controlled variables in outer environment

  2.   Protection from disturbances.

  3.   ….

<

Well you’ll make the heÄ?ll of confussion there. If they will not check it here what nonsense you are capable of producing, they’ll never understand PCT. And you made such a nice Paragraph of PCT :

RM: Yes, and these outputs are varied as the means of influencing the metaphorical environment of perceptual signals that are the basis of the higher level perceptual variables that are being controlled. But ultimately these outputs affect the perceptions controlled by the higher level systems through the non-metaphorical (physical) environment. This is because the perceptual variables at all levels of the control hierarchy – from intensities to system concepts – are a function of this physical environment. So when you are controlling any perceptual variable, whether it’s the loudness of a sound, the honesty of a communication or the degree to which you see yourself as a Dodger fan (how about those Dodgers;-), you are producing outputs that influence the state of that perceptual variable via environment (physical reality) of which that variable is a function.

Did you forget it. It’s not about »Controlled variables« and »Control of behavior«. It’s about Control of perception… Remembber ?

Boris,

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 1:09 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Cc: Richard Marken
Subject: Comment on a blog post on PCT

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.10.1610)]

I receive posts from a blog called Slate Star Codex, which is apparently the project of a psychiatrist named Scott Alexander. I joined a while ago when I was told that there was some talk about PCT. Scott is aware of PCT, sees its relevance to his interests (in science, philosophy, medicine, politics and futurism) and apparently sees merit in it, to a degree. This is reflected in one of his latest posts where he compares PCT to a predictive processing (PP) model of behavior that was apparently featured in a book called “Surfing Uncertainty”. Scott wrote a very nice comparison of PCT and PP, noting that both are control models that contain the idea of a reference specification for a perceptual variable. And he faults PP for not acknowledging that PCT came up with this idea in the first place. But he also faults PCT for coming up with what he considers the almost comical idea that people control things like “love” and “communism”. I wrote a comment to Scott’s post in an attempt to address this concern: I think you will find it here:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/06/predictive-processing-and-perceptual-control/#comments

If you can get in to the site, you can find my comment by scrolling down (I’m called mindreadings). And you can read Scott’s original comment by scrolling up.

Best

Rick

–

Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery

11

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0920)]

BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that (September 8, 2017 at 2:50 am) and several others of his, but nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

MT: Likewise

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful tomorrow.

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT related posts up there now.

HB : Well people perceive also what they want to perceive. You are one of them. Maybe I missed something. I didn’t see much of PCT there. I didn’tanswer to you this time. But it would be good if you’ll continue in PCT style otherwise will move our debate also there.

Boris

Again, I think you can get there by going to:

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:25 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Comment on a blog post on PCT

–

Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery

12

Hi All,

The PCT in that article refers to “predictive coding theory”.

Since it is also directly related to perception, I can see where a casual skim might run amiss of that.

Rob

···

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Boris Hartman boris.hartman@masicom.net wrote:

Â

Â

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:25 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Comment on a blog post on PCT

Â

[From Rick Marken (2017.09.11.0920)]

BN: I see Richard Kennaway’s reply to that (September 8, 2017 at 2:50 am) and several others of his, but nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

MT: Likewise

RM: Well, there goes a full day’s work. I think I’ll just try a short reply to Richard Kennaway and try to work on something useful tomorrow.

Â

RM: Apparently there is a delay involved in posting to the Slate Star Codex website. I just saw that my long comment from yesterday is now up there along with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I see Warren has a post up there also. So there’s a nice sequence of PCT related posts up there now.

Â

HB : Well people perceive also what they want to perceive. You are one of them. Maybe I missed something. I didn’t see much of PCT there. I didn’tanswer to you this time. But it would be good if you’ll continue in PCT style otherwise will move our debate also there.

Â

Boris

Â

Â

Again, I think you can get there by going to:

Â

Â

–

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

13

[Martin Taylor 2017.09.12.16.19]

Not according to the initial blog post on which everyone is

commenting. PCT in that article is explicitly the theory Powers
presented in “Behavior: the Control of Perception”.
I guess a casual skin of the original article might run amiss of
that.
Martin

···

On 2017/09/12 4:10 PM, Robert Levy
wrote:

Hi All,

      The PCT in that article refers to "predictive coding

theory".

      Since it is also directly related to perception, I can see

where a casual skim might run amiss of that.

Rob

      On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Boris

Hartman boris.hartman@masicom.net
wrote:

Â

Â

From:
Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:25 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Comment on a blog post on PCT

Â

                [From Rick Marken

(2017.09.11.0920)]

                                      BN: I see

Richard Kennaway’s reply to
that ( September
8, 2017 at 2:50 am ) and
several others of his, but
nothing from ‘mindreadings’.

MT: Likewise

                            RM: Well, there goes a full day's work.

I think I’ll just try a short reply to
Richard Kennaway and try to work on
something useful tomorrow.

Â

                        RM: Apparently there is a

delay involved in posting to the Slate Star
Codex website. I just saw that my long
comment from yesterday is now up there along
with my “test” reply to Richard Kennaway. I
see Warren has a post up there also. So
there’s a nice sequence of PCT related posts
up there now.

Â

                        HB

: Well people perceive also what they want
to perceive. You are one of them. Maybe I
missed something. I didn’t see much of PCT
there. I didn’tanswer to you this time. But
it would be good if you’ll continue in PCT
style otherwise will move our debate also
there.

Â

Boris

Â

Â

                        Again, I think you can

get there by going to:

Â

Â

–

                                            Richard

S. MarkenÂ

                                              "Perfection

is achieved not when
you have nothing more
to add, but when you

                                              have nothing left to

take away.�

                                              Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â

     --Antoine de
Saint-Exupery