Conflict and MOL

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.01.1650)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.12l.01.1940)--

> Rick Marken (2003.12.01.1620)
>

> Conflict is conflict. And the only way to solve it is to reduce the
> number of reference (goal) degrees of freedom until they are less than
> or equal to the number of perceptual degrees of freedom.

Great. We all agree that its a degrees-of-freedom problem. Still, Ken
does have a point. Learning that your problem involves
degrees-of-freedom may not be all that great a comfort. Stop wanting
that is easier said than done. At least in my experience.

You bet. That's why conflicts are so hard to solve. And that's why the MOL is such an
important discovery. It's the only way to solve conflicts because it's the only way one can
get to a mental place where one can revise the goals (by reducing the number of
simultaneously active goals) that are causing the conflict.

Best

Rick

ยทยทยท

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Senior Behavioral Scientist
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.01.2147)]

Rick Marken (2003.12.01.1650)

You bet. That's why conflicts are so hard to solve. And that's why the
MOL is such an
important discovery. It's the only way to solve conflicts because it's
the only way one can
get to a mental place where one can revise the goals (by reducing the
number of
simultaneously active goals) that are causing the conflict.

I'm not sure that we have any ability to revise goals at the highest
levels (except by reorganization), but I like your optimism.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."

                                                                                Andre Gide

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.01.2216)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.01.2147)]

I'm not sure that we have any ability to revise goals at the highest
levels (except by reorganization), but I like your optimism.

Interesting Bruce. What's your rational, if my ask, for this. I would think
that the higher level goals are more accessible to us. It's the lower level
goals that have their reference conditions set 'automatically' by the higher
level ones and as such generally out of our 'reach'.

Marc

[From Bill Powers (2003.12.01.2012 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.12.01.2147)]

Rick Marken (2003.12.01.1650)

You bet. That's why conflicts are so hard to solve. And that's why the
MOL is such an
important discovery. It's the only way to solve conflicts because it's
the only way one can
get to a mental place where one can revise the goals (by reducing the
number of
simultaneously active goals) that are causing the conflict.

I'm not sure that we have any ability to revise goals at the highest
levels (except by reorganization), but I like your optimism.

I think it's tough even to reorganize at the highest level once you have
developed systems that work well enough. How many people change from deists
to athiests, or if they do, back again? From Republican to Democrat? From
psychologist to physicist? I think there has to be some really stupendous
upheaval for radical changes to occur at the highest level or levels.

When the MOL gets your awareness up in the vicinity of your highest levels,
which does happen eventually, I think, there's no predicting what will
happen. I don't know what kinds of changes take place there if any do.
Maybe the overall effect is simply to resolve conflicts, minor and major,
and reduce chronic errors at all levels. That would feel lots better, of
course, even if it didn't qualify as Enlightenment. I seem to have been
resolving some conflicts lately, and it does feel better even if it didn't
come out the way I was expecting (Mr. Nice Guy lost several notches). We
need a lot more experience with this sort of thing to know what we're
really doing here.

Best,

Bill P..

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.02.0702)]

[Marc Abrams (2003.12.01.2216)

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.01.2147)]

I'm not sure that we have any ability to revise goals at the highest
levels (except by reorganization), but I like your optimism.

Interesting Bruce. What's your rational, if my ask, for this. I would
think
that the higher level goals are more accessible to us.

The problem is that there is no "us." Or to put it another way, the
higher level goals are us. I find it particularly difficult to want
something other than what I want. I can inhibit actions related to my
wants by controlling at higher gain for a conflicting goal, but I find
it difficult to set the gain on any higher level control system. Your
experience may be different!

It's the lower level
goals that have their reference conditions set 'automatically' by the
higher
level ones and as such generally out of our 'reach'.

Not really. I find it pretty easy to type anything I "want" to type.

Bruce Gregory

Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."

                                                                                Andre Gide

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.1202.0718)]

Bill Powers (2003.12.01.2012 MST)

When the MOL gets your awareness up in the vicinity of your highest
levels,
which does happen eventually, I think, there's no predicting what will
happen. I don't know what kinds of changes take place there if any do.
Maybe the overall effect is simply to resolve conflicts, minor and
major,
and reduce chronic errors at all levels. That would feel lots better,
of
course, even if it didn't qualify as Enlightenment. I seem to have been
resolving some conflicts lately, and it does feel better even if it
didn't
come out the way I was expecting (Mr. Nice Guy lost several notches).

Oh, dear. No more Mr. Nice Guy....

It seems that one strategy that emerges from HPCT is "look for
conflicts." We can practice that. (Whether we will be successful is, as
you say, another question.)

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."

                                                                                Andre Gide

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.02.0814)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.02.0702)]

The problem is that there is no "us."

No, but there is an _I_ or _self_and that was what I wes refering to.

Or to put it another way, the higher level goals are us.

Yes, I can see and agree with this.

I find it particularly difficult to want something other than what I want.

_This_ was evident. What I was asking had to do specifically with _changing_
what you wanted.

I can inhibit actions related to my wants by controlling at higher gain

for a conflicting goal, but I find

it difficult to set the gain on any higher level control system. Your
experience may be different!

I guess it is. I have no trouble setting and changing higher level goals.
The devil seems to be in the details, or lower level reference conditions I
usually have little control over. A good recent example of this was my
attempt to go to school. Fortunately everything worked out but I had a
considerabley hard time dealing with 2 hospital stays in the course of one
month in the middle of the term. Dealing with the high level details were
relatively easy.

Not really. I find it pretty easy to type anything I "want" to type.

Interesting how you picked one of many controlled variables necessary to
complete a controlled task such as typing a letter. Of course your decision
to type in the first place
_is_ a high level goal. That is, of course, assuming your fingers don't
randomly start rythmatically and continuously 'typing' things and all you
need is to have some keyboard within reach at any moment.

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.02.0852)]

From [Marc Abrams (2003.12.02.0814)]

I guess it is. I have no trouble setting and changing higher level
goals.
The devil seems to be in the details, or lower level reference
conditions I
usually have little control over. A good recent example of this was my
attempt to go to school. Fortunately everything worked out but I had a
considerabley hard time dealing with 2 hospital stays in the course of
one
month in the middle of the term. Dealing with the high level details
were
relatively easy.

You are talking about goals lower in the hierarchy than I am. Ask
yourself, "Why did I decide to go to school?" The answer to this
question will take you closer to the levels I am talking about.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."

                                                                                Andre Gide