consciousness; right-left brain

[From Richard Thurman (960425.1305)]

WE HAVE BEEN HAVING PROBLEMS WITH OUR E-MAIL SYSTEM. THIS POST WAS (I
BELIEVE) BOUNCED BACK WITHOUT SHOWING UP ON CSG. I APOLOGIZE IF IT WAS
ALREADY POSTED.

Bill Powers (960425.1030 MDT)

    I have something brewing but cant quite articulate it yet. It
    seems to me that perhaps the method of levels can be used here. I
    am wondering if the observer (I believe that is what Bill P calls
    it) that shows itself near the end of a 'method of levels' session
    is in reality the right brain. I saw Bill do the method of levels
    two years ago at the CSG meeting. I admit that I was (and am)
    skeptical and I cannot seem to do it myself. But what I saw was the
    subject topping out by saying that awareness had shifted to an
    observer that did not care or judge -- just watched. If this is
    the right brain then we should be able to perform experiments to
    determine that.

Here's the problem with experiments on other people: the other person
says "Ah, I see -- the observer was always there, but was identified
with some activity in the brain." The experimenter duly records this:
"Subject emitted following words: Ah I see the observer was always there
....."

I can't tell if you are agreeing with my skepticism and offering a lament
-- or if you are objecting with the way I portrayed the method of levels.

It is often hard to infer what is going on inside of others and simply
describing their outward actions does not seem to help. To this I agree.
In fact that was the problem with the demonstration I saw. The subject
seated before you seemed to go through the levels much too easily. It
reminded me of a stage hypnotism act. I guess I inferred that the subject
was playing along.

The idea of the method of levels does make sense, it has intuitive appeal.
I wish it were true. It may be true. I just don't have the kind of
evidence I need yet.

If the right hemisphere doesn't deal in words, how come the right
hemisphere could understand and answer the question? And how did
Gazzinaga manage to ask only the right hemisphere without the left one
hearing and answering the question?

My description was probably not good. I did not mean that the right
hemisphere cannot read or interpret symbolic information. I simply meant
that the right hemisphere is inarticulate. It does not make verbal
conversation.

This is not too unbelievable. Speech output is probably controlled via a
relatively small set of control systems in a restricted area of the (left)
brain. When these systems are impaired by disease, trauma, or accident --
verbal output is lowered or ceases completely. But the patient can still
read and understand verbal instructions.

According to my information, the distinction between right and left
hemisphere brain functions comes from a slight statistical difference in
activity between the two halves, found after the mean level of activity
in both halves is subtracted out. Do you know anything to the contrary?

Good call! Remember my talking about the pop psych stuff. All that is
statistical in nature. (And gave split-brain studies a tarnished
reputation.) The pop psych stuff was called hemispheric lateralization
and involves a lot of statistical inferences.

I have avoided all that. The experiments I have described all occurred
with one-on-one investigations. Remember that the subjects for these
experiments were few and far between. There was simply a very limited
number of individuals who had experienced a commissurotomy. Since the
population was so small, statistical inference would not work.

I must sound like I'm some proponent of split-brain research or studies of
hemispheric lateralization. In reality, I have very little investment in
the idea. I'm just curious about how one can do a test to see if a
subject can be aware -- yet not conscious. And somehow I got onto the
idea that conscious awareness is tied up with 'inner-talk.' Perhaps its
just wild speculation.

Rich

···

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Thurman
Armstrong Lab
Mesa AZ.
(602) 988-6561
Thurman@hrlban1.aircrew.asu.edu
---------------------------------------------------

[From Bill Powers (960425.1030 MDT)]

Hank Folson (960424) --

     Could consciousness be what occurs whenever an organism is actively
     controlling external to the organism, and will produce outputs
     acting on the environment external to the organism, given enough of
     an error signal?

And what is it that occurs when these conditions hold? You're using the
word "consciousness" for it, but you haven't said what "it" is.

···

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Thurman 960424.1310)--

     I have something brewing but cant quite articulate it yet. It
     seems to me that perhaps the method of levels can be used here. I
     am wondering if the observer (I believe that is what Bill P calls
     it) that shows itself near the end of a 'method of levels' session
     is in reality the right brain. I saw Bill do the method of levels
     two years ago at the CSG meeting. I admit that I was (and am)
     skeptical and I cannot seem to do it myself. But what I saw was the
     subject topping out by saying that awareness had shifted to an
     observer that did not care or judge -- just watched. If this is
     the right brain then we should be able to perform experiments to
     determine that.

Here's the problem with experiments on other people: the other person
says "Ah, I see -- the observer was always there, but was identified
with some activity in the brain." The experimenter duly records this:
"Subject emitted following words: Ah I see the observer was always there
...."
     Remember that Gazzaniga presented the word "laugh" to the right
     hemisphere of a subject and the subject laughed. When asked why he
     laughed, the subject said something like "You guys come all the way
     up here to do these tests every month. What a strange job." It
     seems the left brain of the subject made up the reason because it
     did not have access to the right brain's instructions.

If the right hemisphere doesn't deal in words, how come the right
hemisphere could understand and answer the question? And how did
Gazzinaga manage to ask only the right hemisphere without the left one
hearing and answering the question?

According to my information, the distinction between right and left
hemisphere brain functions comes from a slight statistical difference in
activity between the two halves, found after the mean level of activity
in both halves is subtracted out. Do you know anything to the contrary?
I'm not doubting the phenomenon -- just the explanation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
BEst,

Bill P.