[From Rick Marken (2009.08.27.1830)]
Dag Forssell (2009.08.26.1540)–
Why bully people on CSGnet by labeling them, very clearly implying right up front that they are inferior?
Kenny Kitzke (2009.08.27)–
Dag, I second your perception…
The shame is what a great PCT contributor he can be if he would keep this forum focused upon PCT science.
This is rather interesting. All this feeling of being “bullied” just because I asked: “Any right wingers out there who are willing to be explorers in an MOL session”?
I wonder why Dag and Kenny, of all people on CSGNet, would react so negatively to this request? And why would they react so strongly to me rather than, say, Bill? After all, I made this request in response to Bill’s question about what right wingers might be controlling: Here’s what Bill said:
BP: What seems to be missing [in right wingers] is the idea of
“myself as part of a social system that I help support and that
makes life better for everyone including me.”
You could argue that this part isn’t missing or defective in the ones
we are concerned about [right wingers or “conservatives”], it’s just
organized around a different vision of a social system. I don’t think
we will make much progress with this problem
until we figure out just what the problem is.
This seems like a very interesting question and certainly one that is pertinent to an understanding of human nature. The question is: Are right-wingers missing the ability to perceive and thus control a system concept perception (like “myself as part of a social system that I help support and that makes life better for everyone including me.”) or are they controlling for a system concept like this, it’s just that they have a different vision (reference) for what the state of this system concept perception should be? Put in simpler terms, is my right wing friend, who vigorously opposes universal healthcare, unable to see himself as part of a social system that helps make life better for everyone or does he consider a society where nearly 1/5th of the population has no health insurance to be the kind of social system he wants to help achieve?
Perhaps what upset Dag and Kenny was my reference to people as right wingers. I don’t know why that would be upsetting. If Kenny or Dag had asked if there were any left- wingers out there who were willing to be explorers in an MOL session I’d volunteer in a NY minute. I don’t necessarily agree with everything every left winger says but I know that my system concepts would probably be considered left wing because I experience such large errors every time I read or hear anything that comes from an avowedly right-wing or “conservative” source. I myself would find it interesting to try to find out what some of my own higher level goals might be.
I think I can articulate many of the goals that would define me as “left wing” without any MOL because I know what kinds of things are a disturbance to these perceptions. MOL isn’t really needed for me to know that I am saddened by the egregious increase in wealth disparity that has happened since Reagan (see attached graph; looking at it creates enormous error for me); by increases in poverty, especially child poverty; by people who cannot support their families because they can’t get work or the work doesn’t pay a living wage; by wars that are fought for no good reason other than ego or greed; by people who want to have control over women to the extent that they want the power to tell them what they can and can’t do to their own bodies; etc. For most of the social things I care about, I see myself more in agreement with left wingers than right wingers (indeed, I can’t think of anything I agree with right wingers about, though I sometimes disagree with left wingers).
Anyway, I’m happy to be the subject of an MOL to find more about what my “left wing” (or any wing) higher level variables might be that I am not aware of. I think if we could do the same with a right winger we might be able to get a better handle on solving the “problem” Bill mentions about, which, I suppose, could be called "why can’t left and right wingers just get along. If there are no right wingers here who are willing to volunteer what they are controlling for in terms of social variables, that’s fine; it turns out that I know quite a few right wingers and I’ll make it my task to find out what they are controlling for. I’ve wanted to do this anyway; I thought CSGNet might be a nice forum in which to do it; but maybe it’s one in which right wingers might feel embarrassed about discussing what they really want (other than that they want me to shut up;-)
Best regards
RIck