Controlled variable (was Re: Behavioural Illusion)

From
Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1505 EDT)]

Â

···

From:
Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Â

Bruce…

Â

        Bruce Abbott

(2017.10.15.0820 EDT)]

Â

From:
Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 4:34 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Â

          Rick Marken

(2017.10.11.1745)]

Â

                  Bruce

Abbott (2017.10.10.1015 EDT)–

Â

                            BA:

I appreciate the point. According to
PCT, behavior is driven by error in a
controlled perception, so the experiment
must have created a disturbance to some
controlled variable. But does the CV
that is disturbed by the manipulation
necessarily the same variable that is
under investigation? The answer is
“no.�

Â

                HB : I hope Bruce that you are using »some

CV« in the sense of perceptual variable. That’s the
only controlled variable in the loop.

[From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.2100 EDT)]

BA: Given what I wrote in Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1745 EDT) in response to Fred Nickols’ query, it may come as a surprise that I agree with Martin’s analysis below. The position I described is based on what I would call “informed realismâ€? to distinguish it from “naïve realism.â€? The latter is the belief that what you perceive is exactly what is actually out there beyond the senses. I recognize that our perceptions are very selective and incomplete representations of what may actually be out there. The evolutionary process has given us perceptual systems that generally do a good enough job of representing those aspects of reality that usually are relevant to maintaining our well-being.  When I see a baseball coming straight for my face, experience tells me that I’d better duck or else prepare for a painful experience. My perception of that baseball is not a perfectly accurate representation (I don’t perceive the infrared radiation it emits, for example), but it’s usually a good enough representation to avoid being struck by whatever the reality is beyond that perception of it.

BA: Although recognizing that all we actually have are our perceptions, I prefer to take the point of view of the engineer, who works with what she takes to be real objects with measurable properties and with real sources of energy whose properties also are measurable. When designing a car’s cruise control, she assumes a real car with a real speed along a real road and possessing a real set of mechanisms operating according to well-defined rules (laws of physics, etc.). From that point of view one can design a material sensor to pick up the car’s speed (many ways to do that), convert it into a perceptual signal within the car’s cruise control system, and so on, so that the system functions to keep the car’s actual speed over the road near the cruise control’s set point.

BA: In other words, I am taking the designer or analyst’s point of view when describing a control system and how it works. From that point of view,  I assume a real controlled variable in the environment, one whose values are being sensed by a real mechanism that transduces those values into perceptual signals, etc. I provide the same kind of description whether the system being analyzed is a car’s cruise control or a person’s control of the loudness of the music being listened to on an iphone. For my purposes I find this approach clearer than the alternative that places the material world beyond perception off limits.

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.18.16.18] –

From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1505 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Bruce…
/o:p>

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.15.0820 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 4:34 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Rick Marken (2017.10.11.1745)]

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.10.1015 EDT)–

BA: I appreciate the point. According to PCT, behavior is driven by error in a controlled perception, so the experiment must have created a disturbance to some controlled variable. But does the CV that is disturbed by the manipulation necessarily the same variable that is under investigation? The answer is “no.â€?

HB : I hope Bruce that you are using »some CV« in the sense of perceptual variable. That’s the only controlled variable in the loop.

[MT] As long-term readers of CSGnet will know, I held a long-standing opinion that what Boris says here was true, and have argued with Rick about it. But for several reasons over the last year or two I have modified that opinion in favour of a more nuanced view. I don’t know if Rick will agree with my view, but at least I am less likely to complain if he says that an environmental variable is controlled. Let me review, in no particular order, some of the reasons.

[MT] (1) Collective control. When many people control related perceptions of related CEVs (“Complex Environmental Variable”, Bruce), they may all be controlling their perceptions, but the environmental that is most closely stabilized may not be the CEV that is perceived by any of them. In Kent’s original demonstration of collective control at CSG-93, two controllers controlled perceptions of the same CEV and wound up in conflict but to an outside observer of the CEV they were apparently controlling that CEV to a reference value actually held by neither.
[MT] When there are more than two, the more the merrier, the actual CEVs might be quite different in each individual, but it nevertheless looks as though a CEV perceived by none of them is strongly (high gain) controlled to a reference value held by none of them. The same may be true within a brain. Bill approximated the firings of many neurons, each of which would have its own individual collection of synaptic collections, and called the sum of the firings averaged over some time interval a “neural current”. The value of that neural current, in one particular part of a control loop, is a “perceptual variable” or a “perception” in PCT. But nowhere in the brain is that perception actually represented. It is distributed over tens, hundreds, or thousands of neurons, and is stochastically represented over time.

[MT] (1a) Related to (1) is the paper and demo by Bill for which Rick [From Rick Marken (2017.10.17.0840)] provided links. It demonstrates that to control a single environmental variables does not require a dedicated special perception of that environmental variable. The CEV represented is distributed over the brain even more widely than is suggested in (1).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2u00ac87bix2sjv/MultiControlPrj.exe?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwoqfa8v96g62ob/multiple_control.pdf?dl=0

[MT] (2) Evolutionary necessity. A rock that smashes your skull will kill you. A perception of such a rock will not. A shield raised to ward off the rock will save you, but if you control the position of the shied to where you perceive it will intercept the rock and you are wrong, you are just as dead, even though you controlled your perception of the position of the shield extremely well. What matters is what happens in the environment. Controlling a perception is useful only if the environmental property to which it corresponds actually exists and is as stably related to a perceptual reference value as is the perception itself.

[MT] (3) Basic mathematics of the control loop. An environmental property is what it is, whether it is perceived or not. When it is perceived, that perception is delayed, if only slightly, and there is always a resolution limit to the precision with which it is perceived. That’s why we have microscopes and telescopes. The perception is what it is, but every value of the environmental property corresponds to a range of perceptual values that it might induce, and vice-versa. Nevertheless, on average any specific value of the environmental property is most likely to correspond with a specific value of the perception, and vice-versa, provided that the time-delay of perception is not long compared with the rater of change of the environmental property. Therefore, when the perception is controlled in a canonical control loop, so is the CEV that corresponds to that perception.

[MT] (4) “Real reality”. We can never know what is truly “out there”, whatever we perceive. But what is really “out there” that determines our life course. That we can control many perceptions means that we can have an illusion that we are influencing real reality – think of Bishop Berkeley kicking a rock to prove its existence (or was it the friend who did the kicking?). In that sense, it is only the control of perceptions that matters, if anything does. The correspondence between the CEV and real reality might be entirely illusory, but so long as it is perceived as acting as it would if it were real, the Evolutionary Necessity argument overrides the “it’s all perception” argument.

[MT] (5) On the Other Hand: When we control a perception, that perception, not the CEV, is what we are acting to vary so as to bring it near a reference value and keep it there. We do so by apparently acting on something in the environment that changes what our senses tell us. No matter that if we waste resources by controlling perceptions of things that aren’t there we may put our survival in jeopardy, we still can control only our perception, however distributed across the brain its physical/physiological manifestation may be.

[MT] (6) Summing up. Perception is all we have that we can control. The environment is that we really need to control. We can control the environment only to the extend that it behaves as though our perceptions correspond to it reasonably well. So for most practical purposes other than careful theory or metaphysical philosophy, it doesn’t matter a whit whether we say that perception or the CEV is controlled.

[MT] On nomenclature: I think it unfortunate that Bill used “CV” (“controlled variable”) even casually to refer to an environmental variable. The theory is called Perceptual Control Theory for a good reason. In discussions with Kent and Eetu a similar complaint was raised about “CEV” (“Complex Environmental Variable”). Any variable in the environment could be one of those, so we agreed among ourselves that “CEV” (Corresponding Environmental Variable) would be better. Corresponding to what? To a perception, controlled or not. Above, I mentioned the old expansion of the acronym, because it might have been familiar to many long-time readers. But in future I will try to use “Corresponding Environmental Variable” as something in the environment that is perceived.

Martin

[From Fred Nickols (2017.10.19.1057 ET)]

Eetu:

Let me know if what I say fits with what you say below. Others can chime in if they wish.

To control something is to align it with a reference condition and keep it there.

To control anything, you must be able to affect it.

I want to control the position of my car in its lane.

Can I affect its position? Yes, by turning the steering wheel.

Do I control its position? No. I control my perception of its position and that might or might not align with its actual condition.

What’s at play here are two different definitions of “control.� In the ordinary sense, that is, of making something do what I want it to, I do indeed control the position of my car. In the sense of control as aligning the perceived value of some variable with a reference condition and keeping it there, I do not control the position of the car.

Is that consistent with what you are saying, Eetu?

Fred Nickols

···

From: Eetu Pikkarainen [mailto:eetu.pikkarainen@oulu.fi]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 7:33 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: VS: Controlled variable (was Re: Behavioural Illusion)

[Eetu Pikkarainen 2017-10-19]

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.18.16.18]

[EP] Some thoughts. A differentiation between simple and complex. The differentiation is relative but there could be some clear or maximal cases. The most simple control system is on control unit. It is probably very complex neurologically but functionally assumed to be most simple. Easiest for me is to think about a “borderline� controller which is connected to some sense organ and to some output organ (muscle or gland). This is probably at lowest level of the control hierarchy. We assume the whole control hierarchy consists of these most simple, basic or elementary control units. All units except perhaps the highest ones in the hierarchy get the reference signal from other units above. The borderline controllers perceive simple perceptions. The world as the environment of the organism is supposed to be an infinitely complex whole (containing also this organism itself). One simple perception is a narrow sample of the infinite possible effects by which the world could affect the organism and its sense organs. Because we humans have similar sense organs and live in quite similar conditions the these simple perceptions feel very similar and realistic and basic (foundational). For them and building on them we have developed more and more fine instruments to test and refine these perceptions. So we have a tendency to believe that these perceptions are analogs of the aspects of the external world. The (only) proof to this belief is that our perceptions seem to be analogs of the perceptions of others and of the measurements by instruments. Any way it is natural and reasonable to think so because we have no better alternatives.

[EP] So the simple perceptions are analogs of the aspects of the reality and these aspects are CEVs (note: not complex but simple here) of our perceptions. From this it still doesn’t follow that we control those aspects when we control our perceptions. This depends on our concept of control. I think control means: comparing a value to a predefined reference value and bringing it near to that reference and keeping it there. Control units have reference values for perceptions but they cannot not have them for CEVs. They affect CEVs so that their perception becomes near the reference and stays there. As a consequence the value of CEV becomes somewhere and stays there. I would call that stabilized value CET (corresponding environmental target value). Presumably the CET is some kind of an analog of the reference. I understand the great temptation to say that now CEV is controlled and perhaps there is no great danger to say so if we remember that what we perceive happening is a not “real� control but a consequence of it (an intended effect).

[EP] A more complex control system is a hierarchical whole consisting of many borderline units and one or (probably much) more units higher in the hierarchy. This system is controlling the perception of the highest unit and this perception is a complex, a structured whole of the perceptions of the many lower units. So it is a whole of the bunch of the before mentioned simple perceptions. However, complex perceptions are not just sums of their parts but the whole is structured. The basic perceptions have different relations between them and they can form part wholes which again have different relations between them. This possibility of complex structure makes it unreasonable to try to reduce all perceptions to basic perceptions or some simple structures of them. Do complex perceptions have complex CEVs? Do complex CEVs exist in the reality? Perhaps the answer to the first is cautious yes and to the second that some do but not necessarily all. For us controllers perhaps the much more important question is are these perceptions controllable by ourselves or collectively. If they are, then it is again reasonable to believe that they exist.

[EP] Complex control is complex to two directions: then organization of the participant control units is complex and also the feedback chain is complex. The latter one is in principle empirically researchable. Has anyone tried to make an empirical or theoretical (thought experimental) description of how someone controls e.g. such complex perception like democracy? Or perhaps something more simple. I think it could interestingly combine phenomenological research to study of action / behavior.
(I know Kent and Martin have been writing and are writing something but any others?)

Eetu

Please, regard all my statements as questions,

no matter how they are formulated.

[MT] As long-term readers of CSGnet will know, I held a long-standing opinion that what Boris says here was true, and have argued with Rick about it. But for several reasons over the last year or two I have modified that opinion in favour of a more nuanced view. I don’t know if Rick will agree with my view, but at least I am less likely to complain if he says that an environmental variable is controlled. Let me review, in no particular order, some of the reasons.

[MT] (1) Collective control. When many people control related perceptions of related CEVs (“Complex Environmental Variable”, Bruce), they may all be controlling their perceptions, but the environmental that is most closely stabilized may not be the CEV that is perceived by any of them. In Kent’s original demonstration of collective control at CSG-93, two controllers controlled perceptions of the same CEV and wound up in conflict but to an outside observer of the CEV they were apparently controlling that CEV to a reference value actually held by neither.
[MT] When there are more than two, the more the merrier, the actual CEVs might be quite different in each individual, but it nevertheless looks as though a CEV perceived by none of them is strongly (high gain) controlled to a reference value held by none of them. The same may be true within a brain. Bill approximated the firings of many neurons, each of which would have its own individual collection of synaptic collections, and called the sum of the firings averaged over some time interval a “neural current”. The value of that neural current, in one particular part of a control loop, is a “perceptual variable” or a “perception” in PCT. But nowhere in the brain is that perception actually represented. It is distributed over tens, hundreds, or thousands of neurons, and is stochastically represented over time.

[MT] (1a) Related to (1) is the paper and demo by Bill for which Rick [From Rick Marken (2017.10.17.0840)] provided links. It demonstrates that to control a single environmental variables does not require a dedicated special perception of that environmental variable. The CEV represented is distributed over the brain even more widely than is suggested in (1).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2u00ac87bix2sjv/MultiControlPrj.exe?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwoqfa8v96g62ob/multiple_control.pdf?dl=0

[MT] (2) Evolutionary necessity. A rock that smashes your skull will kill you. A perception of such a rock will not. A shield raised to ward off the rock will save you, but if you control the position of the shied to where you perceive it will intercept the rock and you are wrong, you are just as dead, even though you controlled your perception of the position of the shield extremely well. What matters is what happens in the environment. Controlling a perception is useful only if the environmental property to which it corresponds actually exists and is as stably related to a perceptual reference value as is the perception itself.

[MT] (3) Basic mathematics of the control loop. An environmental property is what it is, whether it is perceived or not. When it is perceived, that perception is delayed, if only slightly, and there is always a resolution limit to the precision with which it is perceived. That’s why we have microscopes and telescopes. The perception is what it is, but every value of the environmental property corresponds to a range of perceptual values that it might induce, and vice-versa. Nevertheless, on average any specific value of the environmental property is most likely to correspond with a specific value of the perception, and vice-versa, provided that the time-delay of perception is not long compared with the rater of change of the environmental property. Therefore, when the perception is controlled in a canonical control loop, so is the CEV that corresponds to that perception.

[MT] (4) “Real reality”. We can never know what is truly “out there”, whatever we perceive. But what is really “out there” that determines our life course. That we can control many perceptions means that we can have an illusion that we are influencing real reality – think of Bishop Berkeley kicking a rock to prove its existence (or was it the friend who did the kicking?). In that sense, it is only the control of perceptions that matters, if anything does. The correspondence between the CEV and real reality might be entirely illusory, but so long as it is perceived as acting as it would if it were real, the Evolutionary Necessity argument overrides the “it’s all perception” argument.

[MT] (5) On the Other Hand: When we control a perception, that perception, not the CEV, is what we are acting to vary so as to bring it near a reference value and keep it there. We do so by apparently acting on something in the environment that changes what our senses tell us. No matter that if we waste resources by controlling perceptions of things that aren’t there we may put our survival in jeopardy, we still can control only our perception, however distributed across the brain its physical/physiological manifestation may be.

[MT] (6) Summing up. Perception is all we have that we can control. The environment is that we really need to control. We can control the environment only to the extend that it behaves as though our perceptions correspond to it reasonably well. So for most practical purposes other than careful theory or metaphysical philosophy, it doesn’t matter a whit whether we say that perception or the CEV is controlled.

[MT] On nomenclature: I think it unfortunate that Bill used “CV” (“controlled variable”) even casually to refer to an environmental variable. The theory is called Perceptual Control Theory for a good reason. In discussions with Kent and Eetu a similar complaint was raised about “CEV” (“Complex Environmental Variable”). Any variable in the environment could be one of those, so we agreed among ourselves that “CEV” (Corresponding Environmental Variable) would be better. Corresponding to what? To a perception, controlled or not. Above, I mentioned the old expansion of the acronym, because it might have been familiar to many long-time readers. But in future I will try to use “Corresponding Environmental Variable” as something in the environment that is perceived.

Martin

[From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.20.0820 EDT)]

Ordinarily it is correct to say that a control system controls both the perceptual signal and the environmental variable (or combination of such) of which the perceptual signal is a function. This is true so long as the system’s input function remains stable. There are situations, however, in which that function drifts or changes over time, and in those cases, it cannot be said that the system is successfully controlling both the perception and its environmental analog. Control of perception is primary and control of the environmental correlate of that perception is secondary. When the input function is stable, both are controlled, but this is not always the case.

Consider, for example, the process of sensory adaptation to darkness. The photoreceptors in the retinas of our eyes gradually increase their sensitivity to light in a darkened room. Mathematically this amounts to a changing input function where the intensity of light falling on the retina gets converted to a neural signal. There is no longer a constant relation between the light’s physical intensity (the environmental variable) and its perceived intensity (the magnitude of the neural signal). A person controlling for constant light intensity would have to be reducing the physical intensity of the light during the period of darkness adaptation in order to experience the perception of constant light intensity. She would be successfully controlling the light’s perceived intensity, keeping it at a constant reference level, while failing to do so with respect to the intensity of the light that is entering the eye.

An engineered system for controlling the temperature of a water bath might experience a similar problem if the heat sensor’s electrical connection became corroded. Imagine that this condition causes the sensed temperature to fluctuate rather wildly. The control system would respond by increasing or decreasing the output of the heater in an attempt to keep the sensed temperature constant (control of perception) even though the water bath was already at the desired temperature. The controller might be controlling its perceptual signal successfully, while failing to properly stabilize the temperature of the bath. Again, control of perception is primary, successful control of the environmental correlate of that perception depends on the function relating the perception to the environmental correlate remaining stable.

Bruce

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.2100 EDT) –

BA: Given what I wrote in Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1745 EDT) in response to Fred Nickols’ query, it may come as a surprise that I agree with Martin’s analysis below. The position I described is based on what I would call “informed realismâ€? to distinguish it from “naïve realism.â€? The latter is the belief that what you perceive is exactly what is actually out there beyond the senses. I recognize that our perceptions are very selective and incomplete representations of what may actually be out there. The evolutionary process has given us perceptual systems that generally do a good enough job of representing those aspects of reality that usually are relevant to maintaining our well-being. When I see a baseball coming straight for my face, experience tells me that I’d better duck or else prepare for a painful experience. My perception of that baseball is not a perfectly accurate representation (I don’t perceive the infrared radiation it emits, for example), but it’s usually a good enough representation to avoid being struck by whatever the reality is beyond that perception of it.

BA: Although recognizing that all we actually have are our perceptions, I prefer to take the point of view of the engineer, who works with what she takes to be real objects with measurable properties and with real sources of energy whose properties also are measurable. When designing a car’s cruise control, she assumes a real car with a real speed along a real road and possessing a real set of mechanisms operating according to well-defined rules (laws of physics, etc.). From that point of view one can design a material sensor to pick up the car’s speed (many ways to do that), convert it into a perceptual signal within the car’s cruise control system, and so on, so that the system functions to keep the car’s actual speed over the road near the cruise control’s set point.

BA: In other words, I am taking the designer or analyst’s point of view when describing a control system and how it works From that point of view, I assume a real controlled variable in the environment, one whose values are being sensed by a real mechanism that transduces those values into perceptual signals, etc. I provide the same kind of description whether the system being analyzed is a car’s cruise control or a person’s control of the loudness of the music being listened to on an iphone. For my purposes I find this approach clearer than the alternative that places the material world beyond perception off limits.

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.18.16.18] –

From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1505 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Bruce…

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.15.0820 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 4:34 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Rick Marken (2017.10.11.1745)]

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.10.1015 EDT)–

BA: I appreciate the point. According to PCT, behavior is driven by error in a controlled perception, so the experiment must have created a disturbance to some controlled variable. But does the CV that is disturbed by the manipulation necessarily the same variable that is under investigation? The answer is “no.â€?

HB : I hope Bruce that you are using »some CV« in the sense of perceptual variable. That’s the only controlled variable in the loop.

[MT] As long-term readers of CSGnet will know, I held a long-standing opinion that what Boris says here was true, and have argued with Rick about it. But for several reasons over the last year or two I have modified that opinion in favour of a more nuanced view. I don’t know if Rick will agree with my view, but at least I am less likely to complain if he says that an environmental variable is controlled. Let me review, in no particular order, some of the reasons.

[MT] (1) Collective control. When many people control related perceptions of related CEVs (“Complex Environmental Variable”, Bruce), they may all be controlling their perceptions, but the environmental that is most closely stabilized may not be the CEV that is perceived by any of them. In Kent’s original demonstration of collective control at CSG-93, two controllers controlled perceptions of the same CEV and wound up in conflict but to an outside observer of the CEV they were apparently controlling that CEV to a reference value actually held by neither.
[MT] When there are more than two, the more the merrier, the actual CEVs might be quite different in each individual, but it nevertheless looks as though a CEV perceived by none of them is strongly (high gain) controlled to a reference value held by none of them. The same may be true within a brain. Bill approximated the firings of many neurons, each of which would have its own individual collection of synaptic collections, and called the sum of the firings averaged over some time interval a “neural current”. The value of that neural current, in one particular part of a control loop, is a “perceptual variable” or a “perception” in PCT. But nowhere in the brain is that perception actually represented. It is distributed over tens, hundreds, or thousands of neurons, and is stochastically represented over time.

[MT] (1a) Related to (1) is the paper and demo by Bill for which Rick [From Rick Marken (2017.10.17.0840)] provided links. It demonstrates that to control a single environmental variables does not require a dedicated special perception of that environmental variable. The CEV represented is distributed over the brain even more widely than is suggested in (1).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2u00ac87bix2sjv/MultiControlPrj.exe?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwoqfa8v96g62ob/multiple_control.pdf?dl=0

[MT] (2) Evolutionary necessity. A rock that smashes your skull will kill you. A perception of such a rock will not. A shield raised to ward off the rock will save you, but if you control the position of the shied to where you perceive it will intercept the rock and you are wrong, you are just as dead, even though you controlled your perception of the position of the shield extremely well. What matters is what happens in the environment. Controlling a perception is useful only if the environmental property to which it corresponds actually exists and is as stably related to a perceptual reference value as is the perception itself.

[MT] (3) Basic mathematics of the control loop. An environmental property is what it is, whether it is perceived or not. When it is perceived, that perception is delayed, if only slightly, and there is always a resolution limit to the precision with which it is perceived. That’s why we have microscopes and telescopes. The perception is what it is, but every value of the environmental property corresponds to a range of perceptual values that it might induce, and vice-versa. Nevertheless, on average any specific value of the environmental property is most likely to correspond with a specific value of the perception, and vice-versa, provided that the time-delay of perception is not long compared with the rater of change of the environmental property. Therefore, when the perception is controlled in a canonical control loop, so is the CEV that corresponds to that perception.

[MT] (4) “Real reality”. We can never know what is truly “out there”, whatever we perceive. But what is really “out there” that determines our life course. That we can control many perceptions means that we can have an illusion that we are influencing real reality – think of Bishop Berkeley kicking a rock to prove its existence (or was it the friend who did the kicking?). In that sense, it is only the control of perceptions that matters, if anything does. The correspondence between the CEV and real reality might be entirely illusory, but so long as it is perceived as acting as it would if it were real, the Evolutionary Necessity argument overrides the “it’s all perception” argument.

[MT] (5) On the Other Hand: When we control a perception, that perception, not the CEV, is what we are acting to vary so as to bring it near a reference value and keep it there. We do so by apparently acting on something in the environment that changes what our senses tell us No matter that if we waste resources by controlling perceptions of things that aren’t there we may put our survival in jeopardy, we still can control only our perception, however distributed across the brain its physical/physiological manifestation may be.

[MT] (6) Summing up. Perception is all we have that we can control. The environment is that we really need to control. We can control the environment only to the extend that it behaves as though our perceptions correspond to it reasonably well. So for most practical purposes other than careful theory or metaphysical philosophy, it doesn’t matter a whit whether we say that perception or the CEV is controlled.

[MT] On nomenclature: I think it unfortunate that Bill used “CV” (“controlled variable”) even casually to refer to an environmental variable. The theory is called Perceptual Control Theory for a good reason. In discussions with Kent and Eetu a similar complaint was raised about “CEV” (“Complex Environmental Variable”). Any variable in the environment could be one of those, so we agreed among ourselves that “CEV” (Corresponding Environmental Variable) would be better. Corresponding to what? To a perception, controlled or not. Above, I mentioned the old expansion of the acronym, because it might have been familiar to many long-time readers. But in future I will try to use “Corresponding Environmental Variable” as something in the environment that is perceived.

Martin

Martin

I’m really sorry to hear that you are changing your mind again. Don’t worry Bill did it too quite some times. So I hope you’ll be back.

It seems that this time you decided that both theories (RCT and PCT) are mixed up. It seems that your decission is that there are 2 controlled variables in loop. Physical variables in environment and perceptual signal. It seems that you are affirming that there are 2 control processes. One in organism and one in environment which are by your oppinion »cannonical«.

Maybe I didn’t understand something well.

···

From: Martin Taylor [mailto:mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 11:23 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Controlled variable (was Re: Behavioural Illusion)

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.18.16.18]

From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1505 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Bruce…

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.15.0820 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 4:34 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

Rick Marken (2017.10.11.1745)]

Bruce Abbott (2017.10.10.1015 EDT)–

BA: I appreciate the point. According to PCT, behavior is driven by error in a controlled perception, so the experiment must have created a disturbance to some controlled variable. But does the CV that is disturbed by the manipulation necessarily the same variable that is under investigation? The answer is “no.�

HB : I hope Bruce that you are using »some CV« in the sense of perceptual variable. That’s the only controlled variable in the loop.

[MT] As long-term readers of CSGnet will know, I held a long-standing opinion that what Boris says here was true, and have argued with Rick about it. But for several reasons over the last year or two I have modified that opinion in favour of a more nuanced view. I don’t know if Rick will agree with my view, but at least I am less likely to complain if he says that an environmental variable is controlled. Let me review, in no particular order, some of the reasons.

HB : It seems Martin that what you are saying was not happning through years but it was recent. .

MT earlier (12.6.2017). It seems to me that regardless of what may be in Rick’s mind (and he agreed with me the other day about Behaviour being the control of perception), the words he uses can easily lead a reader to conclude that controlled variables exist in the environment.

MT earlier (8.6.2017) : Rick says the controlled variable is in the environment, which I say cannot be true, because in the environment there exists no independent reference variables nor sources from which they can be determined independently of observation of the moment-by-moment values of the environmental variable itself.

HB : Now you say you are changing your mind.

MT : Therefore, when the perception is controlled in a canonical control loop, so is the CEV that corresponds to that perception.

HB : There are some problems here :

  1.  When various perceptions in inside environment of organism are controlled (like in sleeping case) there is no neccessity that something in outside environment is actually controlled. Some more examples : sunshining, observing….
    
  2.  PCT is general theory about behavior so it seems that your control theory about something being controllled in outer environment expalins only some behaviors…those which are in »cannonical control loopp«. When you are talking about some »cannonical« control loop you have to prove that its' functioning in nature or in real life. Speccially when you are manipulating with model.  So some natural examples ofÂ
    
  3.  How your cannonical control loop is accomplished outside ? What is controlling CEV outside ? Or what is causing control outside to happen ? »Control of behavior« ? How control from inside organsm come to outside of organism if not with »Control od behavior« ?
    
  4.   If your cannonical control exist how you call »Perceptual signal« that is formed on bases of »control» in external environment ? »Controlled Perceptual Variable« ??? How »control« from outside is entering into organism ?
    

Bill P. at all (50th Anniversary, 2011) :

Perceptual Control Theory (PCT) provides a general theory of functioning for organisms. ……Consequently, the phenomen of control takes center stage in PCT, with observable behavior playing an important but supporting role.

HB : You will see here that behavior is just »supporting« to control inside organism. There is nothing controlled outside it’s just affected so that organism can control inside. There is no »cannonical loo« in PCT. What is happening in outer environment is subordinated to control inside orgnism. And it is in accordance with Bills’ defitnition of control.

Bill P (B:CP):

CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through actions on the environment that also cancel the effects of disturbances.

As it seems that you agree little with Rick and little with Bill show me please where you would change iether theory so that would show your actual standing position in understanding how organisms function.  So can you explain what it seems right or wrong in RCT and PCT : Both represent perfectly opposite »cannonical« control loops.

RCT (Ricks Control Theory) definition of control loop

  1.   CONTROL : Keeping of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state, protected (defended) from disturbances.
    
  2. OUTPUT FUNCTION : controlled effects (control of behavior) to outer environment so to keep some »controlled variable« in reference state

  3.  FEED-BACK FUNCTION : »Control« of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state.
    
  4.  INPUT FUNCTION : produce »Controlled Perceptual Variable« or »Controlled Perception«, the perceptual correlate of »controlled q.i.«
    
  5.  COMPARATOR : ????
    
  6.  ERROR SIGNAL : ???
    

Do you agree with these points ?

And now can you compare RCT postulates to Bills’ PCT and tell me what it should be changed in Bills’ definitions (B:CP, LCS III) in accordance to RCT :

Bill P (B:CP):

  1.  CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through actions on the environment that also cancel the effects of disturbances.
    

Bill P (B:CP):

  1.  OUTPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that converts the magnitude or state of a signal inside the system into a corresponding set of effects on the immediate environment of the system
    

Bill P (LCS III):…the output function< shown in it’s own box represents the means this system has for causing changes in it’s environment.

Bill P (LCS III):

  1.   FEED-BACK FUNCTION : The box represents the set of physical laws, properties, arrangements, linkages, by which the action of this system feeds-back to affect its own input, the controlled variable. That's what feed-back means : it's an effect of a system's output on it's own input.
    

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  INPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that receives  signals or stimuli from outside the system, and generates a perceptual signal that is some function of the received signals or stimuli.
    

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  COMPARATOR : The portion of control system that computes the magnitude and direction of mismatch between perceptual and reference signal.
    

Bill P (B:CP)

  1.   : ERROR : The discrepancy between a perceptual signal and a reference signal, which drives a control system’s output function. The discrepancy between a controlled quantity and it’s present reference level, which causes observable behavior.
    

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  ERROR SIGNAL : A signal indicating the magnitude and direction of error.
    

And could you possibly answer whether you agree or not with PCT thesis (Mary and Bill Powers). Rick never confirmed that he agree. Probably because he is affirming that »Behavior is control« and that there is some »Controlled perceptual variable« inside organism.

MT : What matters is what happens in the environment.

HB : Wrong If you meant »outer« environment. What it matters first is what happens in internal environment.

If your organism (inside) is wrongly controlling then you are dead. No doctors, outer environment can help you to survive, But if you wrongly »control« in outer environment you can still survive by correcting mistakes. Organims automatically »correct« mistakes if…

First it matters what is happening in organism and then it matters what is happening in outer environment. If temperature in environment is droping or rising, first organisms internal control systems will »react« and then it will be important what you’ll dress or whether you will look for shalter. First controlled changes always happens inside organism and behavior is always on second place if control in organism is not efficient enough. So behavior is juts prolonged activity which derives from what is happening in organism. It’s just supporting to control inside. First organism has to keep it’s homeostasis if they want to survive in whatever outer conditions they are.

Primary organisms on the Earth (like bacteria e.colli) didn’t use behavior to control something in outer environment but still they survived. Whatever is controlled inside is not »cannonically« controlled outside.

Of most importance is what is happening in inner environment of organism because ther control is happening and through behavior affects environment so that control in inner organism can control optimal.Â

So of most importance is how your organism controls inside not so much what happens in outer environment so that compensation with behavior will follow.

Again PCT defitnion of control.

Bill P (B:CP):

CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through actions on the environment that also cancel the effects of disturbances.

HB : So there is no doubt where control is done in PCT. Do you want to change definition of PCT into »cannonical« form. If you don’t than I’ll have to conclude that your »definiton« is deviating from PCT definition so it’s new control theory. Shall we call it MCT (Martin Control Theory) ?

I can imagine what will be your definition of control :

CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through behavior on the environment that also cannonical control environmental variables.

HB : Do I assume right.

Internal control is on the first place. If organism will not control well it doesn’t matter what happens in environment of organism. Affecting outer environemnt just helps control inside. At least in PCT. But if you are talking about some other theory ???Â

[MT] (4) “Real reality”. We can never know what is truly “out there”, whatever we perceive. But what is really “out there” that determines our life course.

HB : This is wrong. Environment does not solely determine our life course. Your control inside organism determine your life course in interdependance with what is happening »out there«.Out there is influencing what is happening in organism, but how orgsnism will compnesate disturbances it’s up to individuals. We are not determined by enviroment like »stimulus – respons« so that environment wouldd deermine our life course. If people are born in specific environment their destiny is determined ???

Alison Powers : One of the best things about the psychological aspect of PCT is that it teaches people not only to own and be responsible for their own thoughts and actions but to understand that it is not the environment that drives our thoughts and actions but a series of goals that we have developed within each of us based upon each of our own experiences, our own needs and desires.

HB : Only environment is not determining your life course Martin. Mostly control inside organism does. You are producing your life course with goals you create and how you accomplish them. Â

I just tryed to answer on the main problems I see in your »new« view. As I said it could be that I misunderstood something.

Boris