controlling/not controlling

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.08.0911 MDT)]
I guess I put the wrong date on the last post.
I don’t intend to reopen any wounds, but the problem of “when are
you controlling?” reminds me of the question of “when are you
coercing?” Bjorn S. is not the only one who has assumed that if the
output of a control system is zero, the control system is not
controlling. I’m beginning to see that the problem here is that of
whether we mean an action or a relationship.
If you think of controlling as an action, and an action as a change in
the state of an output variable, then no action means no controlling. But
if you think of controlling as what a control system does, and control as
a relationship of a system to its environment, then the amount or
direction or change of the action becomes irrelevant. What then matters
is how action is related to disturbances.
As long as the control system has a power supply and is physically
intact, and as long as none of its connections to the environment has
been broken, it is controlling. If the disturbance happens to be zero,
and the reference level of the input quantity happens to be zero, then
for the moment the output of the control system will be zero. But at any
time, with no change in the control system’s organization at all, any
disturbance will immediately result in an opposing action. This proves
that the control system is “alive” – that it is turned on and
operating, just as you can prove that a silent radio is working by
turning the volume control up and hearing sound as a result.
To show that the control system is not controlling, you would
apply a disturbance to the controlled quantity and show that the output
of the system did not change, or did not change in such a way as to
oppose the disturbance.

This is exactly the problem we had with the subject of coercion. Am I
coercing you if you happen to want to do what I insist that you do?
Several people answered no, and I objected, saying yes. But I can now see
that the disagreement rests entirely on whether the term coercion is
meant as a dynamic action, or as a relationship of the coercer to the
environment. It boils down to the same definition of control: is the
coercer controlling another person if that person wants to perform the
action that the controller wants to perceive?

My answer would be to apply a disturbance and see whether the coercer
resists it. If I caused the other person to behave in a manner different
from what the supposed coercer wants to see, what does the coercer do? If
the coercer does nothing, then the coercer is not controlling the other
person, and probably never was doing so. But if the coercer immediately
produces some sort of action tending to restore the other person’s
behavior back to the pattern the coercer wants to see, then the coercer
is controlling the behavior of the other person. It’s exactly the same
criterion I would apply to determine whether any system is a working
control system or is inert or just observing.

There is a difference between saying that one person is observing the
behavior of another person, and saying that one person is controlling the
behavior of another person. And there is a difference between saying that
a control system is not acting on a controlled quantity because there is
no disturbance and thus no error, and that it is unable to act on the
controlled quantity because it has no way of doing so. When it fails to
act because there is no error, it is still activated and controlling;
there is simply no error to correct. But when there is no ability to act,
it doesn’t matter whether the error is zero or nonzero. Those two cases
coincide when the action is zero, and only the application of a
disturbance can reveal whether the system is controlling or
not.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0808.1216)]

Bill Powers (2004.08.08.0911 MDT)

There is a difference between saying that one person is observing the
behavior of another person, and saying that one person is controlling
the behavior of another person. And there is a difference between
saying that a control system is not acting on a controlled quantity
because there is no disturbance and thus no error, and that it is
unable to act on the controlled quantity because it has no way of
doing so. When it fails to act because there is no error, it is still
activated and controlling; there is simply no error to correct. But
when there is no ability to act, it doesn't matter whether the error
is zero or nonzero. Those two cases coincide when the action is zero,
and only the application of a disturbance can reveal whether the
system is controlling or not.

It may not be obvious what the magnitude of the disturbance must be in
order to demonstrate the existence of control. My thermostat regulates
the oil burner. As long as the temperature does not fall below 68
degrees F, the thermostat does not turn the furnace on. If the ambient
temperature is 84 degrees F, any disturbance must lower the temperature
at least 16 degrees F if it is to be effective in demonstrating the
existence of control. In this case, you not only have to guess that the
thermostat is exercising control, but you have to guess what the
reference level is and be able to generate a sufficiently large
disturbance so that the system reacts to counter the disturbance.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.08.1027 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.0808.1216) --

It may not be obvious what the magnitude of the disturbance must be in
order to demonstrate the existence of control. ... you not only have to
guess that the thermostat is exercising control, but you have to guess
what the reference level is and be able to generate a sufficiently large
disturbance so that the system reacts to counter the disturbance.

Nice point. I suppose the analogous situation in talking about adults
controlling children goes by the name of "setting limits." When a parent
tells a child to be home by 10:00 PM, there's no action if the child comes
home at any earlier time. And "testing the limits" is doing exactly what
you say: creating disturbances of various sizes until there's a corrective
action.

Best.

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2004.08.08.1238]

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0808.1216)]

It may not be obvious what the magnitude of the disturbance must be in
order to demonstrate the existence of control. My thermostat regulates
the oil burner. As long as the temperature does not fall below 68
degrees F, the thermostat does not turn the furnace on. If the ambient
temperature is 84 degrees F, any disturbance must lower the temperature
at least 16 degrees F if it is to be effective in demonstrating the
existence of control. In this case, you not only have to guess that the
thermostat is exercising control, but you have to guess what the
reference level is and be able to generate a sufficiently large
disturbance so that the system reacts to counter the disturbance.

More generally, one may ask the question about any control system
that has a threshold region around zero error, or is a one-way
control (i.e. responding only to errors of one sign).

I think it fair to say that if the situation (values of perception
and reference) is such that a change in the perception does not
result in a change of output, then the system is not controlling at
that moment. In other words, the system that includes the thermostat
and furnace does not control unless the temperature is below 20
degrees C.

I like this formulation because it allows effective time-division
multiplexing among control systems with threshold regions around zero
error. The perceptions of some of those control systems may be simply
observed until the error exceeds the threshold, and then (if the
degrees of freedom permit) those newly "high-error" perceptions can
be brought under control.

If you assert that such systems are controlling all the time, you run
into big problems with degrees of freedom arguments. I think it's
better to go with a straightforward statement: "If a small change in
the perceptual signal or the reference signal causes output that
affects the perceptual signal, the system is controlling that
perception; otherwise, it is not."

Note that this statement allows for positive feedback system, in
which case the control fails to bring the perception anywhere near
the reference. It's like accepting a negative number as being a
number, despite that it is hard to count minus-3 cows in a field.

Martin

(Switching off the computer for two or three weeks)

[From Rick Marken (2004.08.08.0950)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.0808.1216)--

It may not be obvious what the magnitude of the disturbance must be in
order to demonstrate the existence of control.

This is an excellent point. In the case of a one way control system,
such as the thermostat, you could be applying disturbances in a range
of the controlled variable where there is no control. It would be a
mistake to conclude, in this case, that the variable (temperature) is
not controlled. An example of this in human control might be control
of classroom order. This is likely to be one-way control in the sense
that a teacher would not act to prevent a student from being too
non-disruptive. To test to see if a teacher is controlling for
maintaining classroom order, you would have to apply disturbances of
sufficient magnitude, something, my son tells me, many high school
students know exactly how to do.

Best

RIck

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Gregory 92004.0808.1935)]

Martin Taylor 2004.08.08.1238

If you assert that such systems are controlling all the time, you run
into big problems with degrees of freedom arguments. I think it's
better to go with a straightforward statement: "If a small change in
the perceptual signal or the reference signal causes output that
affects the perceptual signal, the system is controlling that
perception; otherwise, it is not."

Can I take it that there is no objection to Martin's operational
definition of control?

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.08.1808 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory 92004.0808.1935)--

Martin Taylor 2004.08.08.1238

If you assert that such systems are controlling all the time, you run
into big problems with degrees of freedom arguments. I think it's
better to go with a straightforward statement: "If a small change in
the perceptual signal or the reference signal causes output that
affects the perceptual signal, the system is controlling that
perception; otherwise, it is not."

Can I take it that there is no objection to Martin's operational
definition of control?

I think it might be improved by making sure the feedback is negative. As it
stands, the definition applies to positive feedback systems, too.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.0720)]

Bill Powers (2004.08.08.1808 MDT)

I think it might be improved by making sure the feedback is negative.
As it
stands, the definition applies to positive feedback systems, too.

This definition clarifies a question I had a while back as to whether a
state trooper monitoring my speed was controlling his perception of
that speed. The answer is yes if a five mph increase in my speed
results in his turing on his siren, and no if such an increase in speed
results in no action on his part.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.09.0818 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.0720)--

This definition clarifies a question I had a while back as to whether a
state trooper monitoring my speed was controlling his perception of
that speed. The answer is yes if a five mph increase in my speed
results in his turing on his siren, and no if such an increase in speed
results in no action on his part.

But don't forget your own comment to Martin. If you're going 35 mph in a 45
mph zone and increase your speed by 5 mph, the trooper's siren won't go on
even if he is controlling for "no faster than 50".

I'm a little puzzled about how my comment about negative and positive
feedback, to which your post is a reply, relates to your words. Negative
feedback tends to bring the controlled variable toward the reference level,
either from above or from below. Positive feedback tends to drive the
variable away from the reference level: to make it larger if it is already
larger than the reference level, or smaller if it is already smaller.

Also, I don't think we are quite in agreement yet. If the trooper is
organized to control for "no faster than 50," this means he is continually
perceiving the speed of cars passing by (he doesn't know who is in them),
and is internally organized so that any perceived speed greater than 50
will result in beginning the process of stopping the car. So I would say,
yes, he is controlling the speed of cars he is observing, although
"controlling for" a certain condition is better, since a speed under 50
does not call for action on his part. He is doing what is necessary to
maintain the condition, "No cars going faster than 50 MPH."

Contrast this with the trooper who is NOT controlling for any speed of the
cars going by. They can go 30, 50, 70, or 90 in the 45-mph zone, and he
will do nothing; he may be watching, but he isn't controlling. I think
you're taking the position that control is an action, whereas I'm promoting
the idea that it is a relationship between organism and environment.

Perhaps you're thinking in terms of how you could tell if the trooper is
controlling for some condition. In my terms, if you're going slower than
his reference speed, you can't tell, because your only evidence comes from
what he actually does. The trooper knows what condition he's controlling
for, but until you cause an error in his perception, you don't.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.1055)]

Bill Powers (2004.08.09.0818 MDT)

I'm a little puzzled about how my comment about negative and positive
feedback, to which your post is a reply, relates to your words.
Negative
feedback tends to bring the controlled variable toward the reference
level,
either from above or from below. Positive feedback tends to drive the
variable away from the reference level: to make it larger if it is
already
larger than the reference level, or smaller if it is already smaller.

Sorry about that. I was just quoting your agreement in principle with
the proposed modification.

Perhaps you're thinking in terms of how you could tell if the trooper
is
controlling for some condition. In my terms, if you're going slower
than
his reference speed, you can't tell, because your only evidence comes
from
what he actually does. The trooper knows what condition he's
controlling
for, but until you cause an error in his perception, you don't.

Yes, that puts it very clearly. To some extent, controlling is in the
eye of the controller.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

[From Rick Marken (2004.08.09.0830)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.1055)]

Bill Powers (2004.08.09.0818 MDT)

Perhaps you're thinking in terms of how you could tell if the trooper
is controlling for some condition. In my terms, if you're going slower
than his reference speed, you can't tell, because your only evidence comes
from what he actually does. The trooper knows what condition he's
controlling for, but until you cause an error in his perception, you don't.

Yes, that puts it very clearly. To some extent, controlling is in the
eye of the controller.

This seems like an odd way to put it. I would say that what is "in the eye
of the controller" is the perception that is under control. "Controlling"
describes a type of behavior that results from a particular type of
functional organization (closed loop, negative feedback) of a system with
respect to its environment. It's not " controlling" that's in the eye of the
controller; rather,it's the perceptual condition under control that is in
the eye of the controller.

I think what Bill's comment put clearly was the fact that the _object_ of
the controller's controlling (the controlled condition or variable) does
_not_ exist in the eye of an _observer_ until the observer has seen the
controller act to protect that condition from a disturbance (a variable that
causes in error in the controller's perception).

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.1236)]

Rick Marken (2004.08.09.0830)

This seems like an odd way to put it. I would say that what is "in the
eye
of the controller" is the perception that is under control.

We are all on the same page of the PCT hymnal.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

[From Rick Marken (2004.08.09.0945)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.0809.1236)--

Rick Marken (2004.08.09.0830)

This seems like an odd way to put it. I would say that what is "in the
eye of the controller" is the perception that is under control.

We are all on the same page of the PCT hymnal.

Get thee behind me, Satan.

Welcome, brother Bruce.

Regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

[From Dick Robertson,2004.08.09.1649CDT]

···

From: Bill Powers powers_w@FRONTIER.NET

Date: Sunday, August 8, 2004 10:39 am

Subject: controlling/not controlling

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.08.0911 MDT)]

This was the best explanation I have seen you give of this issue. It finally clarified for me what the earlier contraversy was about.

Best,

Dick R

I don’t intend to reopen any wounds, but the problem of “when are you
controlling?” reminds me of the question of “when are you
coercing?” Bjorn
S. is not the only one who has assumed that if the output of a control
system is zero, the control system is not controlling. I’m
beginning to see
that the problem here is that of whether we mean an action or a
relationship.
If you think of controlling as an action, and an action as a
change in the
state of an output variable, then no action means no controlling.
But if
you think of controlling as what a control system does, and
control as a
relationship of a system to its environment, then the amount or
directionor change of the action becomes irrelevant. What then
matters is how action
is related to disturbances.

As long as the control system has a power supply and is physically
intact,and as long as none of its connections to the environment
has been broken,
it is controlling. If the disturbance happens to be zero, and the
referencelevel of the input quantity happens to be zero, then for
the moment the
output of the control system will be zero. But at any time, with
no change
in the control system’s organization at all, any disturbance will
immediately result in an opposing action. This proves that the control
system is “alive” – that it is turned on and operating, just as
you can
prove that a silent radio is working by turning the volume control
up and
hearing sound as a result.

To show that the control system is not controlling, you would
apply a
disturbance to the controlled quantity and show that the output of the
system did not change, or did not change in such a way as to
oppose the
disturbance.

This is exactly the problem we had with the subject of coercion.
Am I
coercing you if you happen to want to do what I insist that you
do? Several
people answered no, and I objected, saying yes. But I can now see
that the
disagreement rests entirely on whether the term coercion is meant
as a
dynamic action, or as a relationship of the coercer to the
environment. It
boils down to the same definition of control: is the coercer
controllinganother person if that person wants to perform the
action that the
controller wants to perceive?

My answer would be to apply a disturbance and see whether the coercer
resists it. If I caused the other person to behave in a manner
differentfrom what the supposed coercer wants to see, what does
the coercer do? If
the coercer does nothing, then the coercer is not controlling the
otherperson, and probably never was doing so. But if the coercer
immediatelyproduces some sort of action tending to restore the
other person’s behavior
back to the pattern the coercer wants to see, then the coercer is
controlling the behavior of the other person. It’s exactly the same
criterion I would apply to determine whether any system is a working
control system or is inert or just observing.

There is a difference between saying that one person is observing the
behavior of another person, and saying that one person is
controlling the
behavior of another person. And there is a difference between
saying that a
control system is not acting on a controlled quantity because
there is no
disturbance and thus no error, and that it is unable to act on the
controlled quantity because it has no way of doing so. When it
fails to act
because there is no error, it is still activated and controlling;
there is
simply no error to correct. But when there is no ability to act,
it doesn’t
matter whether the error is zero or nonzero. Those two cases
coincide when
the action is zero, and only the application of a disturbance can
revealwhether the system is controlling or not.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2004.08.09.1650 MDT)]

[From Dick
Robertson,2004.08.09.1649CDT]

This was the best explanation I have seen you give of this issue.
It finally clarified for me what the earlier contraversy was
about.

Whew! That’s what I was hoping for. That whole argument, which got pretty
heated, was unnecessary.

Best,.

Bill P.

From [Marc Abrams (2004.08.10.1258)]

* As long as the control system has a power supply and is physically

intact,and as long as none of its connections to the environment
has been broken,
it is controlling.

One little problem here, is this statement correct? I think the
'environment' is only in your head. It's not 'out there'.

Did Helen Keller perceive the same world others did? I say both yes and no,
just like _everyone_ else. Her access to the external 'environment' was
limited but I doubt this prevented her from 'perceiving' any number of
things from the environment.

Studies of people who gained sight in adulthood showed they had major
disconnects between what they thought a certain shape looked like, like a
square, and what they learned with sight it actually looked like.

The only things we are ever controlling are our 'thoughts' and 'ideas' which
are modulated by our emotions and our senses, sensing from both internal and
external sources to our bodies. This statement pertains to our 'cognitive'
aspects. Our 'physical' control systems operate without any 'cognitive'
awareness necessary.

I make the distinction between 'physical' and 'cognitive' only as a means to
categorize the phenomena. _Both_ are obviously 'physical'.

Marc

···

From: Bill Powers powers_w@FRONTIER.NET