Correspondence

[From Dan Palmer (991008.1114)]

[From Bill Powers (991007.1446 MDT)]

how can we demonstrate or prove that perceptions tell us about the real
world?

Hi, I've been quietly sitting in on this list for a while, and I was planning
to continue doing so until I get a bit more fluent in PCT. However, this
posting is on a topic of great interest to me, so I thought I'd come out of
hiding.

Before addressing the correspondence issue however, I need some help with the
PCT distinction between perceptions and behavior.

I understand "behavior" in terms of the effects people have in the world (and
not as movements of the body),
with "perception" as one subclass. So my question is this: is perception
treated as an instance of behavior (perceiving) in PCT?

Cheers,
Dan Palmer

[From Bill Powers (991007.1129 MDT)]

Dan Palmer (991008.1114)--

Before addressing the correspondence issue however, I need some help with the
PCT distinction between perceptions and behavior.

I understand "behavior" in terms of the effects people have in the world (and
not as movements of the body),
with "perception" as one subclass. So my question is this: is perception
treated as an instance of behavior (perceiving) in PCT?

Hi, Dan, glad to hear from you.

For "behavior," a preferable word is probably "action" as it more directly
implies an output of the organism that has physical effects on the world.
But I often say "behavior" when I'm not trying to be precise, and it can
include indirect effects. An action could be a movement of a part of the
body, or of the whole body, although what is action and what is a
controlled consequence of action depends on the level of organization
you're talking about.

Since I do think of behavior as action, I _don't_ think of perception as
behavior. Perception is an input process starting with the sense organs and
extending through a number of levels in which more and more abstract types
of perception are generated out of the lower-level signals. I don't make
the traditional distinctions between "concrete" and "abstract," however,
except when trying to communicate to those unfamiliar with PCT. All input
processes are simple perceptions at different levels in an ascending
hierarchy. The distinctions made between the levels are more fine-grained
and explicit in PCT than in traditional analyses.

Of course in PCT, many perceptions (but not all) are dependent on
behavior/action as well as on independent external influences. Likewise,
action depends on perceptions as well as internal reference signals. So
perception and action, while very different processes, are closely
interdependent (as some enquirers from the "complexity" list have been
saying). In fact they are components of negative feedback loops at the same
number of levels as there are levels of perception. The basic unit of
organization is a negative feedback loop, which has specific properties due
to the closed loop of causation.

Hope that gets us started on the right foot.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Chris Cherpas (991008.0909 PT)]

Bill Powers (991007.1129 MDT)--

For "behavior," a preferable word is probably "action" as it more directly
implies an output of the organism that has physical effects on the world.
But I often say "behavior" when I'm not trying to be precise, and it can
include indirect effects. An action could be a movement of a part of the
body, or of the whole body, although what is action and what is a
controlled consequence of action depends on the level of organization
you're talking about.

There's something else that I think is important to emphasize about the
term "behavior" here. PCT _defines_ "behavior" _as_ the "control of
perception." So, identifying behavior with action would be to see
a part (i.e., action is just the output part of the control loop) as the
whole (the parts working together to control input, perception).
There's never been a definition of behavior like this before, and I
think such a definition is a (perhaps "the") revolutionary step that
finally makes it possible for psychology to be a science.

Best regards,
cc

[From Rick Marken (991008.0820)]

Dan Palmer (991008.1114)--

I understand "behavior" in terms of the effects people have in the
world (and not as movements of the body), with "perception" as one
subclass. So my question is this: is perception treated as an
instance of behavior (perceiving) in PCT?

Bill Powers (991007.1129 MDT) gave a nice reply to this. Now I'd
like to give it a try, too. What I say will be basically what Bill
said, only different;-)

I think of "behavior" as what we see people (and other organisms)
"doing". Behavior is walking, talking, playing chess, listening to
Bach, making love, defending beliefs, raising children, building
dams, drinking coffee, sitting doing nothing, etc. Behavior is
_our_ perception of what _other_ organisms are doing. Behavioral
scientists have proposed several different explanations of the
behavior we see:

1) Behavior is a response to external events.

2) Behavior is a response to internal (mental) events.

3) Behavior is the control of perception.

All of these explanations recognize perception as one component
of the behavioral process. In all of these explanations, perception
is a representation, inside the organism, of what is outside of
the organism. In explanation 1) it is ultimately the perception
of external events that causes responses (what we see as behavior);
in explanation 2) the internal mental events that cause responses
include stored perceptions (memories) of external events. In
explanation 3) responses have effects on external events, the
perception of which is being controlled.

Diagramatically, the three explanations of behavior look like this:

1) S-->s|-->p-->m-->|o-->R

2) |-->p-->m-->|o-->R

          > r |
          > > >
          > v |
3) S-->s|-->p-->m-->|o-->R
         ^ |
         >_________________|

In all diagrams, S is some environmental event or variable,
s is the sensory representation of that event (for example,
S might be a dog and s is the projection of that dog on the
retina), p is the perception of something about S, such as its
distance from you (note that we are now inside the organism
boundary, denoted by "|"), m is some kind of mental activity,
o is the action produced by the mental activity (such as a muscle
tension; notice that we are back outside of the organism -- really
nervous system -- boundary again). Finally, the action leads to
some observable response, R which is what we see as "behavior".

So perception exists in all explanations of behavior as the
organism's neural representation of external events (S). In
1) p is the cause of R, the behavior we see; in 2) p is also
a cause of R. But in 3) p is _controlled_; it is continually
being forced into a match with a reference specification, r; p
is part of a causal _loop_ but, when this negative feedback
loop is analyzed correctly, it will be seen that p is not
a cause of R; rather, r (the reference specification) is more
appropriately seen as a cause of p!

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (991008.1250 EDT)]

Chris Cherpas (991008.0909 PT)

There's something else that I think is important to emphasize about the
term "behavior" here. PCT _defines_ "behavior" _as_ the "control of
perception." So, identifying behavior with action would be to see
a part (i.e., action is just the output part of the control loop) as the
whole (the parts working together to control input, perception).
There's never been a definition of behavior like this before, and I
think such a definition is a (perhaps "the") revolutionary step that
finally makes it possible for psychology to be a science.

It seems a bit odd that defining a word in an unusual way can comprise a
revolutionary step of any kind.

Bruce Gregory

[Chris Cherpas (991008.1010 PT)]

Chris Cherpas (991008.0929 PT)

There's never been a definition of behavior like this before, and I
think such a definition is a (perhaps "the") revolutionary step that
finally makes it possible for psychology to be a science.

Bruce Gregory (991008.1250 EDT)--

It seems a bit odd that defining a word in an unusual way can
comprise a revolutionary step of any kind.

If it were only in an "unusual" way, I would agree, but, of course,
we know that "the control of perception" is understood by reference
to the diagram (and formulas) of PCT, which is more than just unusual.

We could do away with all previous terms, like "mind," "psyche," and
"behavior," and the control of perception would remain -- and that
conceptualization is the revolutionary step, per se. So, perhaps what
seems odd to you is that I might ascribe such importance to attaching
the word "behavior" to this. Historically, "behavior" has been a field
of study, however, so I consider defining what it is we are studying,
when we study "behavior," as the control of perception, to be revolutionary.

In other words, if "behavior" hadn't been defined previously in other
ways, and PCT had somehow entered a field unoccupied by any previous
schools of thought about <whatever you want to call it>, then defining
the term "behavior" would have no significance, and would not even be
necessary. I'm not sure if this helps. In any case, I think part of
the revolution is to not identify <whatever you want to call it> with
just the output.

Best regards,
cc

[From Bruce Gregory (991008.1516 EDT)]

Chris Cherpas (991008.1010 PT)

We could do away with all previous terms, like "mind," "psyche," and
"behavior," and the control of perception would remain -- and that
conceptualization is the revolutionary step, per se. So, perhaps what
seems odd to you is that I might ascribe such importance to attaching
the word "behavior" to this. Historically, "behavior" has been a field
of study, however, so I consider defining what it is we are studying,
when we study "behavior," as the control of perception, to be
revolutionary.

You only get be revolutionary when the masses join your cause. Otherwise you
are more likely to be labeled as crackpot. I can "define" evil to be acting
in accordance with the ten commandments, but I am a revolutionary only in my
own mind.

My take on Bill's contribution is that he undertook to treat living systems
as intentional rather than reactive systems. This shift in viewpoint allows
a unified approach to understanding living systems that represents a sharp
departure from traditional approaches that focus on all the things organisms
seem to react to and thus wind up studying the environment rather than
organism. The step that allowed Bill to shift perspective was his
realization that negative feedback mechanisms allow us to model intention.
This happens to be true whether or not any one recognizes it or what they
choose to call it. Personally, I think "perception" causes at least as many
problems as it solves. "Inputs" are what is really controlled, whether they
meet anyone's definition of perception or not.

Bruce Gregory

[From Chris Cherpas (991008.1747 PT)]

Bruce Gregory (991008.1516 EDT)--

You only get be revolutionary when the masses join your cause.

Give it some time.

Otherwise you are more likely to be labeled as crackpot.

Of course, if the shoe fits... but, are we talking about
crack or pot?

My take on Bill's contribution is that he undertook to treat living systems
as intentional rather than reactive systems.

Animism has been around a long time. In fact, non-living systems
used to be viewed as having intentions (e.g., a rock thrown in the
air, accelerates towards Earth because it grows more exuberant as it
returns to its home). Taking the intention out of things was a step
forward in this respect.

This shift in viewpoint allows a unified approach to understanding
living systems that represents a sharp departure from traditional
approaches that focus on all the things organisms seem to react to
and thus wind up studying the environment rather than organism.

The history of unsuccessful psychologies has no shortage of
of attributing intention to living things. It is only the
mechanistic half of the Cartesian dualism that has been
traditionally viewed as reactive. Intention has been a part
of folk psychology since Day 1.

The step that allowed Bill to shift perspective was his
realization that negative feedback mechanisms allow us to
model intention.

Ergo, "Intention: The Control of Perception?"

Personally, I think "perception" causes at least as many
problems as it solves. "Inputs" are what is really controlled,
whether they meet anyone's definition of perception or not.

I have a preference for controlling inputs over controlling
perceptions too, but there are trade-offs that make it a
pretty weak preference.

Best regards,
cc

[From Bruce Gregory (991008.2125 EDT)]

Chris Cherpas (991008.1747 PT)

Ergo, "Intention: The Control of Perception?"

Control of input provides the mechanism for realizing intention. Is this
explicit enough for you?

Bruce Gregory

[From Chris Cherpas (991008.2131 PT)]

Bruce Gregory (991008.2125 EDT)--

Control of input provides the mechanism for realizing intention. Is this
explicit enough for you?

"It seems a bit odd that defining a word in an unusual way can comprise a
revolutionary step of any kind."

Petty, aren't we?

Best regards,
cc

[From Bill Powers (991009.0338 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (991008.1516 EDT)--

Personally, I think "perception" causes at least as many
problems as it solves. "Inputs" are what is really controlled, whether they
meet anyone's definition of perception or not.

The trouble with the term "input" is that it connotes something in the
environment. "Perception" refers to constructions by the brain, so allows
for people in the same environment to experience and control "it"
differently (as they do).

But there is no way to pick our words so carefully they they will never be
misunderstood.

Perhaps what PCT does for us is tell us when we should and should not offer
animistic explanations of behavior. An explanation of the behavior of a
waterfall or a planet should not be animistic. A description of the
behavior of a living organism should be animistic.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (991009.0607 EDT)]

Chris Cherpas (991008.2131 PT)

Petty, aren't we?

It's difficult for me to know what sort of a response you are expecting. Or
is this meant to be the last word?

Bruce Gregory

[From Dan Palmer (991010.1823)]

Thanks for all the informative replies. I'm still a little unclear on
some of these terms as they get used in PCT, and was hoping someone
could answer another question I have. I'll introduce the question with
an example. Let's take maintaining the speed of a car at 100 km/hr
(ignoring sound, vibration, motion parallax, gears and the brake pedal
to keep things nice and simple).

In everyday terms, we might say that Bob is 1) driving at 100. If asked
how Bob is doing this, we might say Bob is 2) looking at the speedometer
and accordingly 3) adjusting the position of the speedometer needle by
4) adjusting the position of the accelerator.

Let's now say a psychologist wants to collect data on the phenomenon of
"Bob driving at 100." A logical first step is to abstract out the
particulars of interest. It seems to me that the empirical particulars
of interest to psychologists are primarily those labelled 1-4 above.
Each of these four things is something that Bob is getting done or
accomplishing. Even more precisely, each of these four things is a
change (or avoidance of change) in the state of an object or medium that
Bob's body is contributing to. This might be less clear in the case of
2), but the relevant change might be considered for the moment as
happening to the contents of Bob's visual field.

Confronted with these changes, we could collect data by recording 1) the
car's speed, 2) the contents of Bob's visual field (perhaps with the
help of an eye-tracker), 3) the position of the speedometer needle, and
4) the displacement of the accelerator pedal.

Having recorded these changes for a time, we could then analyse the data
(consisting of time-stamped changes) and abstract out their various
properties, classes, and relations. And in conformance with other
sciences, we could gradually build an understanding our subject matter
at its own level of discourse.

Anyway, this is my question: What do I miss out on by going about things
in this way, rather than using terms like inputs, perceptions, mental
activities, comparators, reference signals, outputs, and so on?

It seems to me that what is being controlled in this example is the
position of the needle on the speedometer, and that PCT gratuitously
invokes a sensory representation of the needle's position in the head
that leads to a perceptual representation which I understand is then
compared with a reference signal which eventually leads to slowing down
(or whatever) before the cycle begins again (this is how I
(mis?)understood the diagram in Rick Marken's post).

I'm not sure about all this, and apologise for any misunderstandings or
mistakes. I'll be looking forward to your comments and corrections.

Respectfully,
Dan Palmer

[From Bruce Gregory (991010.0627 EDT)]

Dan Palmer (991010.1823)

Confronted with these changes, we could collect data by recording 1) the
car's speed, 2) the contents of Bob's visual field (perhaps with the
help of an eye-tracker), 3) the position of the speedometer needle, and
4) the displacement of the accelerator pedal.

Having recorded these changes for a time, we could then analyse the data
(consisting of time-stamped changes) and abstract out their various
properties, classes, and relations. And in conformance with other
sciences, we could gradually build an understanding our subject matter
at its own level of discourse.

Anyway, this is my question: What do I miss out on by going about things
in this way, rather than using terms like inputs, perceptions, mental
activities, comparators, reference signals, outputs, and so on?

You could, of course, take the exactly the same approach to understanding
the behavior of a household thermostat. You could observe the on-off
behavior of the furnace and the outside and inside temperatures. You could
generate a vast amount of accurate and relevant data. What conclusions do
you think you might come up with if it never occurred to you that you might
be observing the behavior of a negative feedback system? Would you
"gradually build an understanding of your subject matter at its own level of
discourse"? Would this understanding allow you to predict the future
behavior of this system? The best way to answer these questions is to try to
build a model of the thermostat system that does not involve inputs,
comparators, reference signals, and outputs.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bill Powers (991010.0526 MDT)]

Dan Palmer (991010.1823)--

Let's take maintaining the speed of a car at 100 km/hr
(ignoring sound, vibration, motion parallax, gears and the brake pedal
to keep things nice and simple).

In everyday terms, we might say that Bob is 1) driving at 100. If asked
how Bob is doing this, we might say Bob is 2) looking at the speedometer
and accordingly 3) adjusting the position of the speedometer needle by
4) adjusting the position of the accelerator.

... each of these four things is a
change (or avoidance of change) in the state of an object or medium that
Bob's body is contributing to. This might be less clear in the case of
2), but the relevant change might be considered for the moment as
happening to the contents of Bob's visual field.

Confronted with these changes, we could collect data by recording 1) the
car's speed, 2) the contents of Bob's visual field (perhaps with the
help of an eye-tracker), 3) the position of the speedometer needle, and
4) the displacement of the accelerator pedal.

Having recorded these changes for a time, we could then analyse the data
(consisting of time-stamped changes) and abstract out their various
properties, classes, and relations. And in conformance with other
sciences, we could gradually build an understanding our subject matter
at its own level of discourse.

This is a good starting point, but there are aspects of this situation that
need to be noticed and understood further.

For example, if you start looking for causal relations, you'll find that
accelerator position (or pressure) depends continuously on the deviation of
the speedometer needle from some particular reading. If the speed falls
below this reading (for example, because of a sudden headwind), the
accelerator pressure will increase roughly in proportion to the shortfall.
If it exceeds it (for example, because of going downhill), the accelerator
pressure will decrease. Also, from studying the car we know that the
forward force acting on the car varies directly (rather than inversely)
with accelerator pressure, and that there are extraneous forces that can
also affect the speed.

We could pursue the physics further and with higher accuracy, but what we
have now is sufficient to reveal something new going on. To a first
approximation, we have found that

AccelPress = K1 + K2*(V0 - V), where
K1 and K2 = constants to be determined from the data,
V0 = the velocity (or speedometer reading) apparently being maintained, and
V = actual speedometer reading

Here K1 is the accelerator pressure when the velocity equals V0, which is
of course 100 KPH. K2 is the amount by which the accelerator pressure
changes per unit deviation of V from V0.

Also, from our studies of the car, we have

V = K3*AccelPress + D, where
  K3 = linear approximation to the accelerator-speed function, and
  D = contribution of disturbance independently affecting speed.

The velocity (speedometer reading) increases as accelerator pressure
increases, K3 approximating the slope of that relationship, and D
expressing the effect of an external influence on the velocity.

These two relationships, each an empirical one described "in its own
terms," form a closed causal loop. This closed loop is impossible to
understand correctly by traditional reasoning, where causes are traced from
one event to the next event, or from an independent variable to a dependent
variable. These two relationships hold true simultaneously, not
sequentially. Even if we go further and express each relationship as a
nonlinear differential equation, both relationships will still have to hold
true at the same time, and we will have to solve the equations
simultaneously, if we can. If we can't, we can always simulate the
relationships on an analog computer (or a digital computer programmed to
behave as an analog computer) and find the result to a few tenths of one
per cent accuracy, which is usually more than good enough in the behavioral
sciences.

Anyway, this is my question: What do I miss out on by going about things
in this way, rather than using terms like inputs, perceptions, mental
activities, comparators, reference signals, outputs, and so on?

Not a thing, obviously, because as above it is perfectly possible to
analyze the system without using any such terms. However, this simple
empirical approach fails to answer at least one question that is, at least
to some people, important: how is the person in this situation organized,
such that we observe this kind of closed-loop behavior? The terms you
mention relate to a model intended to explain how it is that we observe
such relationships.

PCT is grounded in control theory, invented by engineers in the 1930s.
Control theory is about explaining closed-loop negative feedback behavior
-- how the controlling system must be organized to create it, and what
determines whether the whole loop will maintain a stable state or
spontaneously oscillate and "run away."

It seems to me that what is being controlled in this example is the
position of the needle on the speedometer,

Correct.

and that PCT gratuitously
invokes a sensory representation of the needle's position in the head
that leads to a perceptual representation which I understand is then
compared with a reference signal which eventually leads to slowing down
(or whatever) before the cycle begins again (this is how I
(mis?)understood the diagram in Rick Marken's post).

You understand the diagram correctly, except for the idea that there is a
repetitive "cycle," but it's not exactly "gratuitous." You can show, for
example, that if you prevent the driver from visually perceiving the
position of the speedometer needle, that position ceases to be controlled.
The driver's sensory processes are clearly involved. Also, no matter how
carefully you examine the environment, you will find nothing to account for
V0 -- whatever it is that determines that the speed will be maintained
close to 100 KPH, or 90, or 60, or whatever it is at the moment. You can
speculate, of course, about external influences, but if speculation is the
name of the game, PCTers have a right to speculate, too, about other
influences. The names we use for the components of the living control
system are derived from engineering control theory, and refer to functions
that engineers have found to be required for negative feedback control. The
words are not important; the functions are.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Hank Folson (991010.0900)]

Dan Palmer (991010.1823)

Confronted with these changes, we could collect data by ...

Having recorded these changes for a time, we could then analyse ...

Anyway, this is my question: What do I miss out on by going about things
in this way...?

I don't know what you miss, but we do know this: Everyone else who did
things this way for several hundred years did not come to the conclusion
that all living organisms are control systems organized in interacting
layers.

For many decades now, biologists have generally recognized that control
systems regulate processes in organisms. Yet, even with this hint, no one
using the approach you describe figured it out.

I would add that almost all who use the method you describe and who have
been exposed to PCT in this and other forums, often in some depth and
detail, still did not get it.

It seems to me that what is being controlled in this example ...

Hmmm... I wonder what could be doing the controlling, and how might it be
structured??

Sincerely,
Hank Folson

704 ELVIRA AVE. REDONDO BEACH CA 90277
Phone: 310-540-1552 Fax: 310-316-8202 Web Site: www.henryjames.com

[From Rick Marken (991010.0810)]

Dan Palmer (991010.1823)--

and that PCT gratuitously invokes a sensory representation of
the needle's position in the head that leads to a perceptual
representation which I understand is then compared with a
reference signal which eventually leads to slowing down (or
whatever) before the cycle begins again (this is how I
(mis?)understood the diagram in Rick Marken's post).

Bill Powers (991010.0526 MDT)-

You understand the diagram correctly, except for the idea that
there is a repetitive "cycle," but it's not exactly "gratuitous."
You can show, for example, that if you prevent the driver from
visually perceiving the position of the speedometer needle, that
position ceases to be controlled.

Another, less risky (assuming you're sitting in the car with the
driver) way to see this is by asking the driver to lean a bit to
one side of the speedometer (without bumping into the window; so
lean to the right in North America and Europe; to the left in the
UK and Japan). The driver will keep the speedometer _as perceived_
at the desired reading. Due to parallax, the speedometer dial
will appear to be father to the left (North America and Europe)
or right (UK and Japan) of the background numbers than it would
appear if the driver were looking at the speedometer head on. So
a driver controlling for 100 units/hr (units = km or miles) will
keep the car going slightly _faster_ than 100 units/hr (in North
America and Europe) and slightly slower than 100 units/hr (in the
UK and Japan). The driver (like all control systems) controls
perceptions, not reality.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Dan Palmer (991013.1200)]

Thanks for the replies - this is interesting stuff. I've divided my responses
to different people with dashed lines.

···

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Bill Powers (991010.0526 MDT)-
"These two relationships, each an empirical one described "in its own terms,"
form a closed causal loop. This closed loop is impossible to understand
correctly by traditional reasoning, where causes are traced from one event to
the next event, or from an independent variable to a dependent variable."

Me-
I agree that these aspects of traditional reasoning are without merit and
should be rejected, and that their rejection is one of the outstanding
contributions of PCT.

Bill-
"However, this simple empirical approach fails to answer at least one question
that is, at least to some people, important: how is the person in this
situation organized, such that we observe this kind of closed-loop behavior?
The terms you mention relate to a model intended to explain how it is that we
observe such relationships."

Me-
This statement nicely captures the aspect of PCT I'm trying to clarify/justify
for myself. This is how I presently frame the problem:

1) Psychological inquiry is grounded in the language of action. "Bob driving
at 100" was the example I used. Rick provided further examples: "Behavior is
walking, talking, playing chess, listening to Bach, making love, defending
beliefs, raising children, building dams, drinking coffee, sitting doing
nothing, etc." I take this as a common point of departure.

2) Before going any further, I am convinced that is is essential to clarify
what we mean (or what we specify) by our action language. That is, what units
do we point to with statements like "Bob driving at 100?" One interpretation
is that we point to Bob. This is the interpretation adopted by both
behaviorism and cognitivism, though differing in the part of Bob they zoom in
on (either his bodily responses or the contents of his head/mind). I think
this is fundamentally the wrong interpretation. Interpreted literally, action
language refers to the results of bodily efforts (Guthrie) or the things that
people get done (Lee, e.g., 1995). Examples are gaze (as an approximate term)
being shifted from the road to the speedo, gaze being maintained at this
position, and gaze being shifted from the speedo back to the road. This
unconventional interpretation focuses attention away from Bob, and instead
emphasizes the effects, results, achievements, or accomplishments that Bob
has. Bob is demoted to one of many constituents of these effects. Further,
action language often specifies the changes that a person might be said to
control (we are only ever interested in a small subset of the millions of
effects that people have everyday).

3) Now, in my view, this is where things get interesting. For in many ways,
PCT is very closely allied with the latter of the two interpretations. PCT
emphasizes that organisms are _not_ passive recipients of stimuli and emitters
of responses, that organisms causally intervene in the world, and that it is
organisms that control (i.e., effect those changes) rather than be
controlled. And indeed, in its experimental demonstrations (such as tracking)
PCT is explicitly concerned with effects. However, despite these facts, it
seems to me that PCT stops short of severing all affiliations with the former,
more conventional interpretation, in which Bob gets more attention than he
deserves. Now I'll explain why this might be.

4) The things done I am talking about are properly conceptualized as changes
in the state of an object or medium. Take the depression of a mouse button.
That change in the state of the button from up to down occurs when a whole
bunch of constituents come together in a certain way. The constituents
include a biological organism (which in turn includes a brain, hands, fingers,
etc. in short, a whole integrated organism), the button, the light by means of
which the button is seen, a history of relations between button depressions
and other things done (such as a change in the cursor location), gravity, and
so on. Each of these constituents is part of the subject matter of another
science/s. Also, each of these constituents is a necessary but not sufficient
condition for the occurrence of a button depression. So when Bill asks "how
is the person in this situation organized" he is focusing on one of many
constituents, and one that happens to be physiological. And the only reason I
can see for focusing on this particular constituent to the neglect of others
is that there is some sort of residual attachment to the organocentric
interpretation of action language as described above.

5) Now I can state the problem bluntly. If PCT, like all psychology, properly
begins with action language, and interprets this action language in terms of
things done (as it seems empirically to do), then why does it couch its
explanation in terms of brain or person organization rather than in terms of
the organization of things done? If an example of "controlling," such as "Bob
driving at 100" or "keeping the square in the middle of the screen" literally
consists (in psychological perspective) of many hundreds (often thousands and
more) of ongoing things done falling in complex relations, why not do them
justice at their own level rather than interpreting them as evidence for
hypothetical (or real) brain processes? The odd thing is that this is what
PCT actually seems to do (and why I like it). That is, terms like "perceptual
representation," "comparator," "reference signal," "negative feedback loop,"
and "output," seem quite literally to refer to the highly complex relations
between effects (and make brilliant sense of them), despite being talked about
as if they were referring to something else.

Bill Powers wrote:
"You can show, for example, that if you prevent the driver from visually
perceiving the position of the speedometer needle, that position ceases to be
controlled. The driver's sensory processes are clearly involved."

I write:
Or, how about this: if you prevent the driver from getting some things done
(those involved in "looking at the speedo"), the driver can no longer get
other things done (those involved in "controlling the needle's position").
All these individual effects involve "sensory processes," "motor processes,"
"physical processes," "cultural processes," etc., as integral constituents.

Bill Powers wrote:
"The words are not important; the functions are."

I write:
Yes, I understand you point, and I think that's why PCT works so well, because
it has hit upon some really fundamental functions. I only disagree (or at
least am curious to clarify) about where the referents of those functions are
supposed to reside (and I think this _is_ an important issue).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hank Folson (991010.0900) wrote:
"I don't know what you miss, but we do know this: Everyone else who did things
this way for several hundred years did not come to the conclusion that all
living organisms are control systems organized in interacting layers."

I write:
I'm not aware of so many people doing things this way in the last several
hundred years, perhaps you could give me an example. To my knowledge Dewey,
Bentley, Kantor, Weiss, and Walker came closest, but never developed it so far
as has Lee (e.g., 1995). I think that if people had done things in the way I
described, that they may well have
hit upon the awesome power (no pun intended) of systems analysis at a
psychological level earlier on. I'm just glad that Bill Powers did make that
monumental discovery.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rick Marken (991010.0810) wrote:
"Another, less risky (assuming you're sitting in the car with the driver) way
to see this is by asking the driver to lean a bit to one side of the
speedometer (without bumping into the window; so lean to the right in North
America and Europe; to the left in the UK and Japan). The driver will keep the
speedometer _as perceived_ at the desired reading. Due to parallax, the
speedometer dial will appear to be father to the left (North America and
Europe) or right (UK and Japan) of the background numbers than it would appear
if the driver were looking at the speedometer head on. So a driver controlling
for 100 units/hr (units = km or miles) will keep the car going slightly
_faster_ than 100 units/hr (in North America and Europe) and slightly slower
than 100 units/hr (in the UK and Japan). The driver (like all control systems)
controls perceptions, not reality."

I write:
Interesting example. If you asked someone to read out the speed while slowly
leaning over, they might say "100, 99, 98, 97..." while the needle is actually
stationary at 100. In this case, what they see is literally changing, because
the number the needle is in front of changes as you change the position from
which it is viewed. These facts remain whether or not you bring a
"perception" into existence and whether or not you say that this "perception"
is the thing being controlled. At the same time, I appreciate the point that
we can only control what we can sense (whether or not this was your point I'm
not sure).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that's my take for the moment. Thanks again for providing me with such
an interactive introduction to PCT!

Cheers,
Dan Palmer

Lee, V. L. (1995). What is a psychological unit? Behaviour Change, 12, 98-108.

[From Rick Marken (991013.1545)]

Dan Palmer (991013.1200)--

If PCT, like all psychology, properly begins with action
language, and interprets this action language in terms of
things done (as it seems empirically to do)

PCT deals with _variables_ and the relationships between them.
Some variables (like the speed of the car) are controlled;
that is, they are brought to and maintained at some
predetermined value. PCT (unlike the rest of psychology)
begins with "control language" and treats "things done"
(which I think of as referring to informally observed
behavior) as a visible side effect of the process of
controlling perceptions.

then why does it couch its explanation in terms of brain
or person organization rather than in terms of the organization
of things done?

PCT explains how control works. A crucial component of the
control process is a comparison of the state of the controlled
variable to a reference specification for that state. This
comparison must take place inside the controller. In the
driving example, the controller is a driver. PCT explains
the driver's control of speed by assuming that the driver
compares a perceptual signal representing car speed to
a reference signal representing the specification for that
perception. From what we know of physiology, it seems likely
that these signals are in the driver's brain. That's why the
PCT explanation (model) of control is "couched" in terms of
"brain or person organization"; the "driver" control system
is a particular organization of variables (perceptual,
reference and error) and functions (input, comparison and
output) in the nervous system of the driver (person) that
can accounts for the observed fact that car speed is
controlled.

I have no idea how one would explain control in terms of the
"organization of things done". I don't even know what that
means. Are you suggesting that it's possible to build a model
of a controller (such as a driver controlling speed) that
ignores the organization of the system (person in this case)
doing the controlling? Perhaps I could understand your point
of view better if you described the mechanism of your
"organization of things done" model of how a driver
controls the speed of a car.

If you asked someone to read out the speed while slowly
leaning over, they might say "100, 99, 98, 97..." while the
needle is actually stationary at 100.

Yes. If the person kept moving relative to the speedometer
needle. But this was not the point of the example. I was
picturing a driver who is stationary in his new position
relative to the speedometer. Let's assume that the driver is
in a position such that the needle appears to be over the
"100" when it would appear to be over the "90" if the driver
were viewing the speedometer head on. When the driver keeps the
needle, as perceived, over the "100", he is actually keeping
the car speed at 90. So the driver is controlling a perception
of speed (indicated by the needle _as seen_), not the actual
speed.

In this case, what they see is literally changing, because
the number the needle is in front of changes as you change
the position from which it is viewed. These facts remain
whether or not you bring a "perception" into existence and
whether or not you say that this "perception" is the thing
being controlled.

OK. I'll try another way of showing that we _must_ take
perception into account in order to explain control. You
seem to be saying that we don't need to bring perception
into it because the "facts" of the situation (such as the
effect of your movement on the displacement between you the
needle and the number on the speedometer) "remain" whether
we bring up perception or not. The problem is that the facts
you speak of "remain" for a bazillion variables besides
displacement between you, the needle and the number on
the speedometer -- and many of these variables can be
controlled using the same action (varying pressure on
the accelerator pedal) this is used to control speedometer
needle position. For example, suppose that the speedometer
includes a tachometer needle. So the facts you describe
remain for the displacement between you, the tachometer
needle and numbers on the speedometer. But the driver could
be controlling the tach needle position rather than the
speedometer needle position.

The "facts" of the situation don't determine what aspect of
the situation is controlled. You might be controlling the
relationship between the speedometer needle and the
background numbers (call this variable x1); you might be
controlling the relationship between the tachometer needle
and the background numbers (call this variable x2); or you
might be controlling some other aspect of the situation
(call these variables x3..xn). The variable (the aspect
of the external situation) that is controlled is the one
that is perceived by the control control system.

A driver may have control systems that are perceiving and
controlling many different aspects of the same situation;
so there may be systems controlling x1, x2, and x10. But
there is nothing _outside_ the controller that determines
that x1, x2 and x10 rather than x3, x5 and x9 will be
controlled. Each control system controls a different
_perceptual_ representation of the _same_ external state
of affairs.

Another (probably better) way to see the importance of
_perception_ in control is to read (and do) my "Control
of Perception" demo at

http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/ControlDemo/ControlP.html

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bill Powers (991014.0959 MDT)]

Dan Palmer (991013.1200)--

2) Before going any further, I am convinced that is is essential to clarify
what we mean (or what we specify) by our action language. That is, what

units

do we point to with statements like "Bob driving at 100?" One interpretation
is that we point to Bob. This is the interpretation adopted by both
behaviorism and cognitivism, though differing in the part of Bob they zoom in
on (either his bodily responses or the contents of his head/mind). I think
this is fundamentally the wrong interpretation. Interpreted literally,

action

language refers to the results of bodily efforts (Guthrie) or the things that
people get done (Lee, e.g., 1995).

This is part of the story but not enough of it. I agree that we must speak
mainly of what behavior accomplishes rather than the means by which
behavior is produced, but this leaves open the question of how to define
what is accomplished. Any given action has many effects, but only a few or
even only one count as what "gets done." When I pull open a drawer to get
some socks out, the drawer makes a noise, but if it made a different amount
of noise I would make no attempt to silence it or make it louder, so that
is not what "gets done." The drawer extrudes six inches, but if it happened
to be eight inches I would do nothing to correct the gap, so that isn't
what "gets done." When I pull out my brown socks I move a pair of blue
socks, but that isn''t what "gets done," for I wouldn't reach in to move
the blue socks if they didn't happen to be disturbed. And if I'm doing all
this in the dark, getting a pair of brown as opposed to blue socks isn't
what gets done, either, because I have no way to tell which color I'm
getting. All of these other effects are simply side-effects; if they came
out differently I would do nothing to change them. The only result that
would call for corrective action would be if my hand came out of the drawer
with no socks in it.

There are two viewpoints from which to evaluate what "gets done" -- that of
the observer, and that of the doer. Only the doer really knows what a
physical action is intended to accomplish and which of its consequences are
accidental or incidental. This is because only the doer knows _what
perception_ is intended to be affected by the action. The observer may try
to guess which consequence is the intended one (using his own perceptions),
but without some systematic way of testing guesses, guessing correctly is a
matter of luck. The observer projects his own desires and intentions onto
the doer; without a systematic approach, what else can the observer do? Of
course PCT offers the Test for the Controlled Variable, which is a
systematic way of testing guesses about what "gets done."

Further,
action language often specifies the changes that a person might be said to
control (we are only ever interested in a small subset of the millions of
effects that people have everyday).

Speaking of changes, if you mean this literally, is appropriate only if
change is the intended effect. For example, I can move a coin on a tabletop
an inch to the left of its present position. Since the absolute ending
position relative to other objects is not specified, I can speak of
controlling a _change_ in position (as I see it), where the change is
independent of the location in space of the starting position.

However, what I control may be a position relative to something else: move
the coin until it covers a spot on the tablecloth. Since no starting
position is specified, the amount of change of position is unspecified. But
I can still achieve the end-relationship quite easily, using position
control rather than change control.

There are 11 kinds of controlled variables that I think I have identified;
change is at the fourth level (transitions). So control of changes is far
from the whole story.

PCT
emphasizes that organisms are _not_ passive recipients of stimuli and

emitters

of responses, that organisms causally intervene in the world, and that it is
organisms that control (i.e., effect those changes) rather than be
controlled. And indeed, in its experimental demonstrations (such as

tracking)

PCT is explicitly concerned with effects.

Agreed.

However, despite these facts, it
seems to me that PCT stops short of severing all affiliations with the

former,

more conventional interpretation, in which Bob gets more attention than he
deserves.

I would say that it is not Bob, but the observer who gets more attention
than he deserves. It is very difficult for the observer to pick out of all
the effects produced by Bob's movements just those that Bob intends to
produce -- that is, those effects which Bob is perceiving, and for which
perceptions Bob is specifying reference levels.

4) The things done I am talking about are properly conceptualized as changes
in the state of an object or medium.

Why are they not the end-points of the change rather than the change
itself? When end-point control is involved, the path may be disturbed yet
the same end-point will be achieved by altered means. In this mode of
control, neither the actions nor the changes are predictable, yet the
end-point remains predictable (especially by the person carrying out the act).

Take the depression of a mouse button.
That change in the state of the button from up to down occurs when a whole
bunch of constituents come together in a certain way. The constituents
include a biological organism (which in turn includes a brain, hands,

fingers,

etc. in short, a whole integrated organism), the button, the light by

means of

which the button is seen, a history of relations between button depressions
and other things done (such as a change in the cursor location), gravity, and
so on. Each of these constituents is part of the subject matter of another
science/s. Also, each of these constituents is a necessary but not

sufficient

condition for the occurrence of a button depression. So when Bill asks "how
is the person in this situation organized" he is focusing on one of many
constituents, and one that happens to be physiological. And the only

reason I

can see for focusing on this particular constituent to the neglect of others
is that there is some sort of residual attachment to the organocentric
interpretation of action language as described above.

You seem to be using "organicentric" as a pejorative term, here. If I refer
to the operation of a car by describing how its engine, gears, and wheels
work, would you dismiss this as "mechanocentric?" Would a description of
the thyroid gland's operation in a loop involving thyroid-stimulating
hormone and circulating thyroxin be dismissed as "chemocentric?" In the
pressing of a mouse-button, the important components involve, as you say,
the physical properties of the mouse (according to our physics-models), the
neural properties of the brain and sensors (according to neurological
models), and the physiological properties of the muscles (according to the
models of physiology). Is it organocentric to include the brain and muscles
in the description of mouse-pressing? Would it not be physico-centric to
leave them out?

Perhaps you have an idea that it makes no difference where we put the locus
of control. This is another of those myths that have been propagated
through the decades since mid-century. There is a great deal of difference
between the control system itself and the environmental part of the control
loop. The control system controls; the environment does not, unless it
contains another control system. In one of my Living Control Systems books,
the second, I think, I wrote a little piece called "The assymetry of
control." In it I showed why the organism can be said to control its input
from the environment, while the environment cannot be said to control its
input from the organism. The difference is in the error amplification,
which in the organism can amount to many hundreds, while the equivalent
part of the environment typically has an amplification of less than 1 --
it's normally an attenuator. This assymetry is what allows the organism to
vary its behavior to force the environment's state to be what the organism
wants, while the environment, although capable of disturbing the organism's
state, can't determine it in the same way.

5) Now I can state the problem bluntly. If PCT, like all psychology,

properly

begins with action language, and interprets this action language in terms of
things done (as it seems empirically to do), then why does it couch its
explanation in terms of brain or person organization rather than in terms of
the organization of things done?

Because what is "done" is determined strictly by what the organism
perceives, and by the organism's inner specification for the state in which
that perception will be maintained by variations in the organism's actions
on the environment. This is the key concept within control theory that
makes PCT different from simple empiricism. The empiricist assumes that
what an organism is "doing" is obvious -- it is what the empiricist notices
and considers salient. But PCT forces us to acknowledge that what an
organism is "doing" is far from obvious, for all we can see from the
outside is how the organism physically affects the environment, both
directly and indirectly. And without control theory to organize our
investigations, we have no way to find out which of the effects _we_
consider important is also important to the organism.

If an example of "controlling," such as "Bob
driving at 100" or "keeping the square in the middle of the screen" literally
consists (in psychological perspective) of many hundreds (often thousands and
more) of ongoing things done falling in complex relations, why not do them
justice at their own level rather than interpreting them as evidence for
hypothetical (or real) brain processes?

Because without postulating brain processes, there is no other way to
explain how all these environmental interactions produce the result we see.
A proper model must do justice to the physical effects, but that is not
enough to explain the observations.

Just consider Bob's speedometer. That speedometer reading is influenced by
the pressure of Bob's foot on the accelerator pedal, but it is also
influenced by the quality of the gasoline entering the engine, by the air
mixture, by the level of the engine oil and the state of wheel lubrication,
by bumpiness in the road, by open windows in the car that increase its
aerodynamic drag, by the head- or tail-wind component of any wind that may
be blowing or gusting, by the softness of the roadbed at each moment, by
the tire pressure, and by up- or down-slopes in the roadbed.

So clearly, the final speedometer reading is the resultant of many
converging influences, most of which are variable or unpredictable. Yet we
observe that the speedometer needle remains very close to a reading of 100
KPH. If we analyze this situation carefully, with numbers, we discover an
astonishing fact. No matter what combination of other influences may exist,
or how they may be varying over the short or long term, or even whether
they originate outside or inside the car, Bob's foot will vary its pressure
on the accelerator pedal just enough and in the right direction to cancel
out the sum of all other effects on the speedometer reading (even a loss of
calibration in the speedometer!), and keep the reading at 100 KPH.
Furthermore, on request, Bob can start maintaining the reading at 80 KPH or
any other reasonable number we suggest.

When we ask how Bob can possibly produce just the foot-pressure that is
needed, when there are so many other variable forces acting, mostly unknown
to Bob, we pose a problem that can ONLY be answered by the theory of
negative feedback control. While there are many ways to embody a given
negative feedback control system, we can at least speak of a canonical
system to which all other systems that behave the same way are equivalent.
We know that the state of the variable being controlled has to be sensed
somehow; we know that the reference state has to be specified somehow; we
know that the action must vary in a systematic relationship to the
difference between the sensed state and the specified reference state of
the controlled variable. Given those requirements, it is easy (if you
understand control systems) to construct a picture of a simple
neuromuscular control loop in which the required relationships are
specified as functional blocks, if not actual neural connections. And in
some cases, we can establish the parallels between the canonical system's
interconnected functional blocks and the anatomy of the nervous system and
musculature.

Without a model like this, we can only accept the empirical findings and
marvel at them.

Bill Powers wrote:
"You can show, for example, that if you prevent the driver from visually
perceiving the position of the speedometer needle, that position ceases to be
controlled. The driver's sensory processes are clearly involved."

I write:
Or, how about this: if you prevent the driver from getting some things done
(those involved in "looking at the speedo"), the driver can no longer get
other things done (those involved in "controlling the needle's position").

True, but why be so vague when we can be exact about what is required and
why? If the driver is to keep the car on the road, for example, he must
specifically get sensory information that pertains to the relationship
between the car and the road. It will do no good to get this information
written on a piece of paper he has in his pocket, or to give it to someone
in the car other than the driver. Furthermore (back to the speedometer),
it's not enough that the driver look at the speedometer. The driver must
specifically be perceiving the position of the needle relative to the speed
scale; no other perception involving the speedometer will enable him to
keep the speed constant. The driver must specifically sense the variable
that is to be controlled, or some variable that directly depends on it and
only on it. All else about the speedometer is irrelevant.

I only disagree (or at
least am curious to clarify) about where the referents of those functions are
supposed to reside (and I think this _is_ an important issue).

They reside in the physical form of neural signals in the brain of the
actor -- that is the basic PCT model. HPCT further proposes that they are
the outputs of higher control organizations in the brain which control more
abstract and aggregate variables. The highest level must of course be dealt
with in a different way.

Best,

Bill P.