[John Anderson 2001.08.28.0932]
[From Bill Powers (2001.08.27.1307 MDT)]
Bill Williams Sunday 26 August 2001 18:30 CST --
In Bill's response to Bill Williams's post, there seems to be a
contradiction in describing the level of a reference condition for something
that is not desired. Maybe I'm just being particularly dense today -- I
haven't followed CSGNET postings closely for a while, and I'm a bit rusty on
the fundamentals -- but here are the relevant parts of the post, with the
parts that seem contradictory to me in uppercase:
"Consider, for instance, a simple cause-effect relationship in which a
person throws a punch at an experimental subject, and we observe that as
soon as the subject sees the fist approaching he ducks.
...
There are several problems with this interpretation, however.
...
One alternative, the one suggested by control theory, is that the subject
had set a VERY LOW REFERENCE LEVEL FOR THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING PUNCHED. HE
DIDN'T WANT TO BE HIT.
...
Is a reward rewarding IF YOU DON'T WANT IT (MEANING: SET A HIGH LEVEL OF THE
REFERENCE CONDITION FOR HAVING IT)?"
So, is the reference level for something you don't want -- the punch or the
reward -- set low or set high?
Thanks
John
[From Rick Marken (2001.08.28.0820)]
John Anderson (2001.08.28.0932) --
In Bill's response to Bill Williams's post, there seems to be a
contradiction in describing the level of a reference condition for
something that is not desired.
...here are the relevant parts of the post, with the parts that seem
contradictory to me in uppercase:
...
One alternative, the one suggested by control theory, is that the subject
had set a VERY LOW REFERENCE LEVEL FOR THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING
PUNCHED.
HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE HIT.
...
Is a reward rewarding IF YOU DON'T WANT IT (MEANING: SET A HIGH LEVEL
OF THE REFERENCE CONDITION FOR HAVING IT)?"
So, is the reference level for something you don't want -- the punch
or the reward -- set low or set high?
A low reference level for a perceptual variable means you want a low
level of that perception; a high reference level for a perceptual
variable means you want a high level of that perception. It looks, to an
observer, like you _don't want_ the perception you are keeping at a low
level and that you _want_, or, more to the point here, that you find
_rewarding_, a perception that is being kept at a high level. But in
both cases, it's just control of perception.
Bill's point, I think, was that "rewards" and "punishments" exist only
as perceptions in the observer of the behaving system. Some perceptions,
like food, look like rewards but this is only true when the behaving
system's references for the perception is set high. The same perception
no longer appears to be a reward when the behaving system's reference
for that perception is set low.
Best regards
Rick
ยทยทยท
--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
MindReadings.com
10459 Holman Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90024
Tel: 310-474-0313
E-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
[From Bill Powers (2001.08.28.1628 MDT)]
John Anderson 2001.08.28.0932]
So, is the reference level for something you don't want -- the punch or the
reward -- set low or set high?
Low. First you have to specify a variable. Being punched can occur on a
scale from zero to maximum, in whatever dimension you pick (example: how
hard you are hit). Then you pick az point on that scale as the reference
condition.
The "reward" problem arises because of bad writing. The problem sentence:
"Is a reward rewarding IF YOU DON'T WANT IT (MEANING: SET A HIGH LEVEL OF THE
REFERENCE CONDITION FOR HAVING IT)?"
The statement should have been written, "you don't want it (meaning: you
don't set a high level of the reference condition ...)." The parenthetical
statement was intended to refer to "want it", not "don't want it." You
didn't read my mind correctly.
"Don't want it" is ambiguous, anyway. Does this refer to a low setting of a
reference level or to the absence of a control system? If I have no
preference for something, I can say that I don't want it, but this doesn't
mean I'd reject it if you gave it to me. I'm not controlling for it one way
or the other. On the other hand, it could mean that I would prefer a low
value of whatever it is -- if you give it to me, I'll immediately try to
get rid of it, as in "I don't want your cold."