CSGnet threads (was Feedback is too slow)

CSGnet Archive CSG2014
1

Hi Rupert, I have this one
public but not the Dispute document.


http://www.pctweb.org/devilbib.htm

[From Dag Forssell (2014 05 21 10:20 PST)]

Rupert, Warren,

Rupert – did you scroll down the pdf? Fig 1, 2 and 3 are ASCII
illustrations.

See pages 1, 2 and 3.

All,

I created these ASCII text files in 1994-5. Distributed on a
floppy.

When opened as text files, they displayed properly.

For posting on the web, I supplied .rtf files to Gary Cziko.

Unfortunately, Gary did not know how to convert them properly and the
contractor, hired by the Goods, who created

www.perceptualcontroltheory.org took the floppy and merely changed
.txt to .html.

An .html file displays a sequence of spaces as one space. That means that
all the ASCII illustrations in these about 100 threads were destroyed.

(An html code can be added to a text file so it displays with multiple
spaces. I got started with that at one time, but never followed through).

Now, the same files are available as pdf with proper formatting. No
figures extend across pages, so all are clear as intended.

It will still take me a while to properly set up

www.pctresources.com where I will post all of these files in plain
view.

I understand that all of CSGnet is in the public domain and that includes
these threads, so I will not object if anyone picks one up and posts it
at their website. But please post the pdf versions.

In fact, based on my conversations with Greg Williams over the years, the
best way to ensure that an archive survives for a very long time is to
store it in multiple locations. So the more these files get duplicated on
the Internet, the better.

Best, Dag

[From Rupert Young (2014.05.21 11.00)]

Thanks. What about the figures?

I’d like to cite this paper but don’t think I can do it unless it is
public. Can it be made available on one of the PCT sites, or can I put it
on mine?

Regards,

Rupert

···

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Rupert Young > rupert@moonsit.co.uk > wrote:
At 05:27 AM 5/21/2014, you wrote:
On 20/05/2014 20:19, Dag Forssell wrote:
[From Dag Forssell (2014 05 20 12:20 PST)]

Is DISPUTE.PCT available on the internet
to reference, and where are figures 5 & 6?

Check out

ftp.pctresources.com/CSGnet_Threads/

User name pctstudent password re5earch!

Best, Dag

2

[From Rupert Young (2014.05.22 14.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 21 10:20 PST)]
Rupert -- did you scroll down the pdf? Fig 1, 2 and 3 are ASCII illustrations.
See pages 1, 2 and 3.

Yes I can see those, and 4a and 4b, but not figures 5 and 6.
Regards,
Rupert

[From Dag Forssell (2014 05 21 10:20 PST)]

Rupert, Warren,

Rupert -- did you scroll down the pdf? Fig 1, 2 and 3 are ASCII illustrations.
See pages 1, 2 and 3.

All,

I created these ASCII text files in 1994-5. Distributed on a floppy.

When opened as text files, they displayed properly.

For posting on the web, I supplied .rtf files to Gary Cziko.

Unfortunately, Gary did not know how to convert them properly and the contractor, hired by the Goods, who created <http://www.perceptualcontroltheory.org/&gt; www.perceptualcontroltheory.org took the floppy and merely changed .txt to .html.

An .html file displays a sequence of spaces as one space. That means that all the ASCII illustrations in these about 100 threads were destroyed.

(An html code can be added to a text file so it displays with multiple spaces. I got started with that at one time, but never followed through).

Now, the same files are available as pdf with proper formatting. No figures extend across pages, so all are clear as intended.

It will still take me a while to properly set up <http://www.pctresources.com/&gt; www.pctresources.com where I will post all of these files in plain view.

I understand that all of CSGnet is in the public domain and that includes these threads, so I will not object if anyone picks one up and posts it at their website. But please post the pdf versions.

In fact, based on my conversations with Greg Williams over the years, the best way to ensure that an archive survives for a very long time is to store it in multiple locations. So the more these files get duplicated on the Internet, the better.

Best, Dag

Hi Rupert, I have this one public but not the Dispute document.
<http://www.pctweb.org/devilbib.htm&gt;&gt;&gt; http://www.pctweb.org/devilbib.htm

  [From Rupert Young (2014.05.21 11.00)]

  Thanks. What about the figures?

  I'd like to cite this paper but don't think I can do it unless it is public. Can it be made available on one of the PCT sites, or can I put it on mine?

  Regards,

<dd>Rupert

</dd>>>

···

On 21/05/2014 18:37, Dag Forssell wrote:

At 05:27 AM 5/21/2014, you wrote:

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Rupert Young <<mailto:rupert@moonsit.co.uk>rupert@moonsit.co.uk> wrote:
  On 20/05/2014 20:19, Dag Forssell wrote:

  [From Dag Forssell (2014 05 20 12:20 PST)]

  Is DISPUTE.PCT available on the internet to reference, and where are figures 5 & 6?

  Check out <ftp://ftp.pctresources.com/CSGnet_Threads/&gt; ftp.pctresources.com/CSGnet_Threads/

  User name pctstudent password re5earch!

  Best, Dag

3

[From Rupert Young (2014.05.22
14.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 21 10:20 PST)]

Rupert – did you scroll down the pdf? Fig 1, 2 and 3 are ASCII
illustrations.

See pages 1, 2 and 3.

Yes I can see those, and 4a and 4b, but not figures 5 and 6.

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]

Rupert,

I see toward the bottom of page 1

cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)

So where it says

[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]

that is what should be there.

I have looked through my bookcases, but don’t find Wiener’s Cybernetics
(thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert
Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future
reference.

later, text says

relevant sets of two-level control systems as shown in Fig. 6

and then I see nothing more.

At the end of the paper I wrote in 1993:

[HERE ENDS THE PAPER AS OF JULY 24, 1993. THE REMAINING SECTION WILL BE
CONSTRUCTED FROM EXAMPLES IN THE LITERATURE CONTRIBUTED BY CSG MEMBERS
AND PARTICIPANTS IN CSGNET.]

So again, if someone can send me a scan of Cybernetics, p. 132, Fig. 5, I
will improve this pdf. as to figure 6, I am stumped.

Best, Dag

Regards,
Rupert

[From Dag Forssell (2014
05 21 10:20 PST)]

Rupert, Warren,

Rupert – did you scroll down the pdf? Fig 1, 2 and 3 are ASCII
illustrations.

See pages 1, 2 and 3.

All,

I created these ASCII text files in 1994-5. Distributed on a
floppy.

When opened as text files, they displayed properly.

For posting on the web, I supplied .rtf files to Gary Cziko.

Unfortunately, Gary did not know how to convert them properly and the
contractor, hired by the Goods, who created

www.perceptualcontroltheory.org took the floppy and merely changed
.txt to .html.

An .html file displays a sequence of spaces as one space. That means that
all the ASCII illustrations in these about 100 threads were destroyed.

(An html code can be added to a text file so it displays with multiple
spaces. I got started with that at one time, but never followed through).

Now, the same files are available as pdf with proper formatting. No
figures extend across pages, so all are clear as intended.

It will still take me a while to properly set up

www.pctresources.com where I will post all of these files in plain
view.

I understand that all of CSGnet is in the public domain and that includes
these threads, so I will not object if anyone picks one up and posts it
at their website. But please post the pdf versions.

In fact, based on my conversations with Greg Williams over the years, the
best way to ensure that an archive survives for a very long time is to
store it in multiple locations. So the more these files get duplicated on
the Internet, the better.

Best, Dag

Hi Rupert, I have this one
public but not the Dispute document.


http://www.pctweb.org/devilbib.htm

[From Rupert Young (2014.05.21 11.00)]
Thanks. What about the figures?
I’d like to cite this paper but don’t think I can do it unless it is
public. Can it be made available on one of the PCT sites, or can I put it
on mine?

Regards,

Rupert

···

At 05:38 AM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

At 05:27 AM 5/21/2014, you wrote:

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Rupert Young > > rupert@moonsit.co.uk > > wrote:
On 21/05/2014 18:37, Dag Forssell wrote:
On 20/05/2014 20:19, Dag Forssell wrote:
[From Dag Forssell (2014 05 20 12:20 PST)]

Is DISPUTE.PCT available on the internet
to reference, and where are figures 5 & 6?
Check out

ftp.pctresources.com/CSGnet_Threads/
User name pctstudent password re5earch!
Best, Dag

4

Bruce Abbott (2014.05.22.2255 EDT)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]
Rupert,
I see toward the bottom of page 1
cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)
So where it says
[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]
that is what should be there.
I have looked through my bookcases, but don’t find Wiener’s Cybernetics (thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future reference.
BA: I checked my a hardbound copy of Wiener’s second edition of Cybernetics but unfortunately it does not seem to contain a photo of Wiener within it.

Bruce

5

[David Goldstein(2014.05.23.06420)]

For picture of Norbert Weiner and info, see:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener

David

···

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:57 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

Bruce Abbott (2014.05.22.2255 EDT)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]
Rupert,
I see toward the bottom of page 1
cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)
So where it says
[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]
that is what should be there.
I have looked through my bookcases, but don’t find Wiener’s Cybernetics (thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert
Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future reference.
BA: I checked my a hardbound copy of Wiener’s second edition of Cybernetics but unfortunately it does not seem to contain a photo of Wiener within it.

Bruce

6

I think the search is for a diagram by Wiener not a picture of him.

Fred Nickols
Performance Improvement Professional
Distance Consulting LLC
fred@nickols.us
www.nickols.us

D GOLDSTEIN wrote:

···

[David Goldstein(2014.05.23.06420)]

For picture of Norbert Weiner and info, see:
Norbert Wiener - Wikiquote

David
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:57 PM, Bruce Abbott <bbabbott@frontier.com> > wrote:

Bruce Abbott (2014.05.22.2255 EDT)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]

Rupert,

I see toward the bottom of page 1
cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)
So where it says
[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]
that is what should be there.

I have looked through my bookcases, but don't find Wiener's Cybernetics
(thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert
Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future
reference.

BA: I checked my a hardbound copy of Wiener’s second edition of
Cybernetics but unfortunately it does not seem to contain a photo of
Wiener within it.

Bruce

7

Fred Nickols (2014.05.23.0851 EDT)

I think the search is for a diagram by Wiener, not a picture of Wiener. But I could be wrong.

Fred

···

From: Bruce Abbott [mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:56 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: CSGnet threads (was Feedback is too slow)

Bruce Abbott (2014.05.22.2255 EDT)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]
Rupert,
I see toward the bottom of page 1
cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)
So where it says
[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]
that is what should be there.
I have looked through my bookcases, but don’t find Wiener’s Cybernetics (thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future reference.
BA: I checked my a hardbound copy of Wiener’s second edition of Cybernetics but unfortunately it does not seem to contain a photo of Wiener within it.

Bruce

8

[From Rupert Young (2014.0523 17.00)]

I think the search is for a diagram by Wiener, not a picture of Wiener. But I could be wrong.

Actually neither is the case. I'm looking for two figures referred to in the text ( DISPUTE .PCT ) as follows:

We can thus discern a two level control system, shown in Fig. 5.

[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]

...

two level control systems as shown in Fig. 6, with appropriate signs

I can't see either of these.

Regards,
Rupert

···

On 23/05/2014 13:51, Fred Nickols wrote:

Fred Nickols (2014.05.23.0851 EDT)

I think the search is for a diagram by Wiener, not a picture of Wiener. But I could be wrong.

Fred

From: Bruce Abbott [<mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com>mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:56 PM
To: <mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: CSGnet threads (was Feedback is too slow)

Bruce Abbott (2014.05.22.2255 EDT)]

(Dag Forssell (2014 05 22 13:10 PST)]

Rupert,

I see toward the bottom of page 1
cybernetician Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5)
So where it says
[Insert Fig. 5 about here ]
that is what should be there.

I have looked through my bookcases, but don't find Wiener's Cybernetics (thought I have it). If someone will send me a scanned image of Norbert Wiener (1948, p. 132, Fig. 5), I will place it in this pdf for future reference.

BA: I checked my a hardbound copy of Wiener’s second edition of Cybernetics but unfortunately it does not seem to contain a photo of Wiener within it.

Bruce