Derivation of PCT (was hPCT Learning - Trying Again)

[Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25]

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.31.0830)]

        Martin Taylor

(2010.08.30.23.05)–

        However, that's not the

point, is it, as I gather from your smiley. The point is
that the need for PCT can be derived from the basic laws of
physics with no need for any model fitting.

      The point (of the smiley face) was that I disagree with that

emphatically.

I'd find it easier to make a cogent comment if you would explain the

reason for your disagreement, and most particularly for your use of
“emphatically”. Obviously you have thought about the issue in some
depth and have concluded that it is not possible that PCT can be
derived from physical law, so it is clear to you that any such
derivation must have a fatal flaw. To judge from your “emphatically”
you are very sure that your analysis of this generic flaw is
correct.

I would appreciate it if you would detail your argument that there

is no possibility that PCT could be derived from the basic laws of
physics, before I post my derivation of PCT from the laws of
thermodynamics (which is already written). I’d like to see whether
your analysis would make my intended posting nonsense, or whether I
could adjust my argument in some rational way to accommodate what
you have shown.

Martin

[From Bill Powers (2010.09.05.0152 MDT)’

Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25 –

The point is that the need for
PCT can be derived from the basic laws of physics with no need for any
model fitting.

This is hard for me to understand because PCT is a specific theory of how
specific systems of one kind are organized. We can show that there are
similar systems with physically identical components but different
properties, systems that are organized only slightly differently
and are not control systems. Consider a (former) control system that
simply has the sign of one of its functions reversed or a time delay in a
function somewhat extended (an oscillator) or with a missing
environmental feedback function or one with a very small multiplier (an
S-R system), or one with a missing perceptual input function ( a central
pattern generator, for instance). In most model diagrams the actual
system parameters are neither shown nor mentioned, yet the magnitudes or
signs of those parameters can critically determine what kind of system is
present. And all of those other kinds of system may be found among
natural systems. They all work by doing something.
What is a “basic law” of physics? Is conservation of momentum
one of them? If so, then how is the theory of a gyroscope “derived
from” conservation of momentum? Many systems with and without wheels
demonstrate conservation of momentum, and by that token can’t be related
to each other just by sharing that property. Conservation of
momentum is a generalization from observations of the behavior of
specific systems; it says there is some variable that is not affected by
changes in the values of certain system variables; if one variable
changes, there are others that will also change in specific ways, as
angular velocity changes when linear dimension changes, leaving momentum
alone. From that alone you could never deduce that there will be any
planet going around any star in a elliptical orbit – even if very nearly
all observed planets are doing so. Nothing says any planet at all MUST go
around a given star, or that a skater has to spin.
So it seems to me that universal laws say only that certain organizations
can exist, not that they must, nor do they offer classifications that
show categorically different types of organized behavior that come
out of subtle changes in the details. It is the details, not the
generalizations, that determine what kinds of systems will
emerge.
I am reminded of Ashby’s “Law of requisitive variety.” On the
surface this looks like a deep and subtle law, yet all it says is that
every working control system succeeds because it can vary its outputs
along sufficient degrees of freedom to oppose all physical disturbances
sufficiently well. From this requirement alone nobody could ever develop
a successful design for a brain, or any kind of control system. The
critical information still missing is HOW this requirement can be met;
that is almost the whole ball game, but not quite. WHY must also be
specified – the purpose being satisfied.
Going up a level leaves no trace about the pathway; it can never be
uniquely retraced since in a many-to-one function, one set of variables
is represented by a far smaller number of variables. Inevitably
someone will mention a set of variables, or properties of collections of
such variables, that seems to explain why a set of lower-order variables
behaves as it does. On closer examination the multiple-valued
relationships are discovered.
This has confused many scientists ( like Michael Turvey, about whom David
Goldstein can tell you much concerning Turvey’s views of control theory).
If one configuration of an arm can place the hand at a certain distance
above the terrain, while many other configurations with different joint
angles can place it at exactly the same distance above the terrain, how
can we ever determine how an observed distance above the terrain is
actually caused? From the bottom-up divergent point of view, which is
emergentism, the question can’t be answered because the same causes can
have different effects, and neither can it be explained from the
top-down, convergent point of view, precisely because of this convergence
and divergence; the same effects can have different causes. The possible
number of variables to be explained is different from the possible number
of variables available to explain them. Either you have indeterminate
degrees of freedom left unexplained, or you have too many different
explanations for the same variables and no way to explain why they are
different (wave and particle, for example) so there are no unique
solutions. David, is this how he actually put the problem? Any old class
notes you could share?
Only when the loop is closed do you find that the convergences and
divergences can be properly matched even if the numbers of variables are
different. Nature allows indeterminate solutions with unspecified
degrees of freedom. If you translate Pluto along its orbit by a few
years, it will not necessarily split into two Plutos to satisfy the new
values of the variables, nor will it stop obeying the Newtonian or
Einstenian laws of motion. Something will happen, like emission of a
gravity wave or some loss of structural integrity, and anyone navigating
by observing Pluto may be a bit lost until rediscovering where Pluto now
is, but the navigator will learn to deal with the new behavior, or even
perhaps even shovel it back the way it was.
Maxwell’s Demon was struck down by the Second Law, but had there been a
successful design for Maxwell’s Demon, the Second Law would not have been
struck down; the relationship between the two ideas is not rigid and
prescriptive, it is merely hierarchical. Any violation can be corrected
by a control system of proper design, or caused the same way. Control
systems can cause an object to rise when dropped, since the desired
result is defined first, and then a way to achieve it is found or
invented. Put wings on it, or tie it to a helium balloon, or shape it
like a kite, or drop it in your briefcase and take it with you.
The arm can be held a specific distance above the terrain by specifying
what distance is wanted and what distance is observed and then by
manipulating all variables that affect the distance until the error is
corrected, near enough. It doesn’t matter if the values needed for this
are unpredictable and not repeatable as long as they are feasible; this
system is purpose-driven, any combination of lower-order values that does
the job being as acceptable as any other. We are not proposing to
control the position by setting the variables to the required values –
we can’t, because there are no required values. We are proposing to vary the variables until the desired position occurs, then keep
varying them as necessary to maintain the position. We hope the pilot
does that, too. We raise the arm above the ground in Newark and set
it down again in Manchester… We don’t need to know in advance what those
values will be. No ceterus paribus required. That is what confused
Turvey as I understand his problem. If you can cause the arm to be in any
desired position, but don’t know the values of the variables on which
those positional variables will depend today, and proceed to do the task
anyway, what has happened to causation itself? Can the job ever be
done?

PCT has created, as Gavin Ritz had recently noted, a new physics by
removing some of the old boundaries. Control systems are not operated by
causes in the environment, nor do they act as predictable causes of the
environment. They override local physics by taking advantage of unused
degrees of freedom – sticking the newspaper under the arm while using
the hand on the same arm to rotate the key in the lock. We seldom use up
the arm’s degree of freedom completely.

I have more thoughts on this that are of personal concern to me right
now, thoughts about life and death. There is already some extra equipment
in the spare bedroom and a lot of new chemistry in the refrigerator.
Smelly. Inconvenient. most expensive. Have I been panicked into
forgetting PCT? Probably somewhat. It’s hard to resist the certainty with
which charismatic and intelligent people – smarter than I am – make
their cases, considering that they could be right and more particularly
that they are in a position to make themselves right by refusing to
consider certain alternatives. This may take some sorting out before I
can know what to do. Better not to move too fast despite good reasons for
wishing I could.

All helpful comments accepted, if not believed.

Best,

Bill P.

(Gavin Ritz
2010.09.05.22.33NZT)

[Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25]

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.31.0830)]

Martin Taylor
(2010.08.30.23.05)–

Martin

I would appreciate it if you would detail your argument that there is no
possibility that PCT could be derived from the basic laws of physics, before I
post my derivation of PCT from the laws of thermodynamics (which is already
written). I’d like to see whether your analysis would make my intended posting
nonsense, or whether I could adjust my argument in some rational way to
accommodate what you have shown.

I can’t
see how PCT can be derived from the laws of thermodynamics.

And if one
was to start it would be non-equilibrium thermodynamics. I can’t even see
in PCT how the 1st law is applied. Where is the energy conversion if
not in the transduction of the input signals? Seems to make the 1st law
really a non entity in PCT. Energy usage of transduced signals is so small as compared to the required
energy usage of the human body. Although the brain does use 20 percent of all
the energy requirements in the body.

Secondly
the big problem I see is “entropy production” which in my opinion
is related to creativity in non equilibrium thermodynamics (Dissipative Structures).
There is no place for creativity in PCT. This too me is one of the major
problems to be overcome in PCT.

I really
would like to see your axioms for PCT, I’m rather intrigued. As I have
been looking at this problem for many months now. I have done what Runkel would
have called an Action Research synthesis and analysis on PCT and have my own
ideas where the big issues are and what needs to be tackled.

Regards

Gavin

···

[Martin Taylor 2010.09.05.09.30]

Glad to see you are well enough to write a long coherent message. I

won’t answer it until I have seen Rick’s reasons why PCT
“emphatically” cannot be derived from the laws of thermodynamics.
Meanwhile, I will study your comments and see if any of them require
me to change my argument.

Martin
···

[From Bill Powers (2010.09.05.0152 MDT)’

  Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25 --
    The point is that the

need for
PCT can be derived from the basic laws of physics with no need
for any
model fitting.

  This is hard for me to understand because PCT is a specific theory

of how
specific systems of one kind are organized. We can show that there
are
similar systems with physically identical components but different
properties, systems that are organized only slightly differently
and are not control systems. Consider a (former) control system
that
simply has the sign of one of its functions reversed or a time
delay in a
function somewhat extended (an oscillator) or with a missing
environmental feedback function or one with a very small
multiplier (an
S-R system), or one with a missing perceptual input function ( a
central
pattern generator, for instance). In most model diagrams the
actual
system parameters are neither shown nor mentioned, yet the
magnitudes or
signs of those parameters can critically determine what kind of
system is
present. And all of those other kinds of system may be found among
natural systems. They all work by doing something.

  What is a "basic law" of physics? Is conservation of momentum

one of them? If so, then how is the theory of a gyroscope “derived
from” conservation of momentum? Many systems with and without
wheels
demonstrate conservation of momentum, and by that token can’t be
related
to each other just by sharing that property. Conservation of
momentum is a generalization from observations of the behavior of
specific systems; it says there is some variable that is not
affected by
changes in the values of certain system variables; if one variable
changes, there are others that will also change in specific ways,
as
angular velocity changes when linear dimension changes, leaving
momentum
alone. From that alone you could never deduce that there will be
any
planet going around any star in a elliptical orbit – even if very
nearly
all observed planets are doing so. Nothing says any planet at all
MUST go
around a given star, or that a skater has to spin.

  So it seems to me that universal laws say only that certain

organizations
can exist, not that they must, nor do they offer classifications
that
show categorically different types of organized behavior that
come
out of subtle changes in the details. It is the details, not the
generalizations, that determine what kinds of systems will
emerge.

  I am reminded of Ashby's "Law of requisitive variety." On the

surface this looks like a deep and subtle law, yet all it says is
that
every working control system succeeds because it can vary its
outputs
along sufficient degrees of freedom to oppose all physical
disturbances
sufficiently well. From this requirement alone nobody could ever
develop
a successful design for a brain, or any kind of control system.
The
critical information still missing is HOW this requirement can be
met;
that is almost the whole ball game, but not quite. WHY must also
be
specified – the purpose being satisfied.

  Going up a level leaves no trace about the pathway; it can never

be
uniquely retraced since in a many-to-one function, one set of
variables
is represented by a far smaller number of variables. Inevitably
someone will mention a set of variables, or properties of
collections of
such variables, that seems to explain why a set of lower-order
variables
behaves as it does. On closer examination the multiple-valued
relationships are discovered.

  This has confused many scientists ( like Michael Turvey, about

whom David
Goldstein can tell you much concerning Turvey’s views of control
theory).
If one configuration of an arm can place the hand at a certain
distance
above the terrain, while many other configurations with different
joint
angles can place it at exactly the same distance above the
terrain, how
can we ever determine how an observed distance above the terrain
is
actually caused? From the bottom-up divergent point of view, which
is
emergentism, the question can’t be answered because the same
causes can
have different effects, and neither can it be explained from the
top-down, convergent point of view, precisely because of this
convergence
and divergence; the same effects can have different causes. The
possible
number of variables to be explained is different from the possible
number
of variables available to explain them. Either you have
indeterminate
degrees of freedom left unexplained, or you have too many
different
explanations for the same variables and no way to explain why they
are
different (wave and particle, for example) so there are no unique
solutions. David, is this how he actually put the problem? Any old
class
notes you could share?

  Only when the loop is closed do you find that the convergences and

divergences can be properly matched even if the numbers of
variables are
different. Nature allows indeterminate solutions with unspecified
degrees of freedom. If you translate Pluto along its orbit by a
few
years, it will not necessarily split into two Plutos to satisfy
the new
values of the variables, nor will it stop obeying the Newtonian or
Einstenian laws of motion. Something will happen, like emission of
a
gravity wave or some loss of structural integrity, and anyone
navigating
by observing Pluto may be a bit lost until rediscovering where
Pluto now
is, but the navigator will learn to deal with the new behavior, or
even
perhaps even shovel it back the way it was.

  Maxwell's Demon was struck down by the Second Law, but had there

been a
successful design for Maxwell’s Demon, the Second Law would not
have been
struck down; the relationship between the two ideas is not rigid
and
prescriptive, it is merely hierarchical. Any violation can be
corrected
by a control system of proper design, or caused the same way.
Control
systems can cause an object to rise when dropped, since the
desired
result is defined first, and then a way to achieve it is found or
invented. Put wings on it, or tie it to a helium balloon, or shape
it
like a kite, or drop it in your briefcase and take it with you.

  The arm can be held a specific distance above the terrain by

specifying
what distance is wanted and what distance is observed and then by
manipulating all variables that affect the distance until the
error is
corrected, near enough. It doesn’t matter if the values needed for
this
are unpredictable and not repeatable as long as they are feasible;
this
system is purpose-driven, any combination of lower-order values
that does
the job being as acceptable as any other. We are not proposing to
control the position by setting the variables to the required
values –
we can’t, because there are no required values. We are proposing
to vary the variables until the desired position occurs, then
keep
varying them as necessary to maintain the position. We hope the
pilot
does that, too. We raise the arm above the ground in Newark and
set
it down again in Manchester… We don’t need to know in advance
what those
values will be. No ceterus paribus required. That is what
confused
Turvey as I understand his problem. If you can cause the arm to be
in any
desired position, but don’t know the values of the variables on
which
those positional variables will depend today, and proceed to do
the task
anyway, what has happened to causation itself? Can the job ever be
done?

  PCT has created, as Gavin Ritz had recently noted, a new physics

by
removing some of the old boundaries. Control systems are not
operated by
causes in the environment, nor do they act as predictable causes
of the
environment. They override local physics by taking advantage of
unused
degrees of freedom – sticking the newspaper under the arm while
using
the hand on the same arm to rotate the key in the lock. We seldom
use up
the arm’s degree of freedom completely.

  I have more thoughts on this that are of personal concern to me

right
now, thoughts about life and death. There is already some extra
equipment
in the spare bedroom and a lot of new chemistry in the
refrigerator.
Smelly. Inconvenient. most expensive. Have I been panicked into
forgetting PCT? Probably somewhat. It’s hard to resist the
certainty with
which charismatic and intelligent people – smarter than I am –
make
their cases, considering that they could be right and more
particularly
that they are in a position to make themselves right by refusing
to
consider certain alternatives. This may take some sorting out
before I
can know what to do. Better not to move too fast despite good
reasons for
wishing I could.

  All helpful comments accepted, if not believed.



  Best,



  Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2010.09.05.09.48]

Addendum to...

[Martin Taylor 2010.09.05.09.30]

  Glad to see you are well enough to write a long coherent message.

I won’t answer it until I have seen Rick’s reasons why PCT
“emphatically” cannot be derived from the laws of thermodynamics.
Meanwhile, I will study your comments and see if any of them
require me to change my argument.

  Martin

[From Bill Powers (2010.09.05.0152 MDT)’

    Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25 --
      The point is that

the need for PCT can be derived from the basic laws of physics
with no need for any model fitting.

    This is hard for me to understand because PCT is a specific

theory of how specific systems of one kind are organized.

I hope it will be easier when I present my argument, though I may

have to revise it after I see Rick’s proof. Meanwhile, I agree with
everything you say except:

    PCT has created, as Gavin Ritz had recently noted, a new physics

by removing some of the old boundaries.

PCT has created a new psychology, perhaps, and a new biology, but

the physics is 19th century. No new physics was required in order to
develop control theory in machine terms, and no new physics is
needed for PCT.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.05.0900)]

Martin Taylor. (2010.08.31.19.25)–

Rick Marken (2010.08.31.0830)]

        Martin Taylor

(2010.08.30.23.05)–

        MT:However, that's not the

point, is it, as I gather from your smiley. The point is
that the need for PCT can be derived from the basic laws of
physics with no need for any model fitting.

      RM: The point (of the smiley face) was that I disagree with that

emphatically.

I'd find it easier to make a cogent comment if you would explain the

reason for your disagreement, and most particularly for your use of
“emphatically”.

        I see Bill has already replied  but I'm answering this before I read his reply since you asked me. I disagree with the idea that "PCT can be derived from the basic laws of

physics" because it makes no sense to me in terms of how I view science. From my perspective, the need for a particular scientific theory (like PCT) is driven by data; phenomena to be explained. Theories are in

invented to account for observed phenomena and then tested. Empirical tests are an essential part of theory development, from my point of view. So I “emphatically” disagree with the idea that theories can be derived (like mathematical theorems) because it suggests that one can go about doing science in the way mathematicians go about doing mathematics, sans empirical test. And you are suggesting that science can be done by deriving a theory (PCT) from other theories (physical law). I agree that its important that theories be consistent with each other – that PCT be consistent with other well established theories – but your statement implies that the validity of a theory can be tested by derivation from other theories. This is what I disagree with emphatically.

Obviously you have thought about the issue in some

depth and have concluded that it is not possible that PCT can be
derived from physical law, so it is clear to you that any such
derivation must have a fatal flaw. To judge from your “emphatically”
you are very sure that your analysis of this generic flaw is
correct.

I don’t emphatically reject the idea that “PCT can be derived from physical law” because I think there is some flaw in the derivation. It’s because I don’t think science is done that way. It’s just not science to me. I’m sure you can set up a derivation that sounds plausible (to others with a Platonic persuasion) but it just wouldn’t be interesting to me. It might be fun to watch but it would not be science. That is, it wouldn’t be the kind of science I like to do.

I would appreciate it if you would detail your argument that there

is no possibility that PCT could be derived from the basic laws of
physics, before I post my derivation of PCT from the laws of
thermodynamics (which is already written).

Again, it’s not a matter of whether or not PCT could or couldn’t be derived from the basic laws of physics. I’m sure you could set up a set of equations from which you could logically derived the basic equations of control theory. But so what? That’s just not science. Science happens when you run experiments to see if your “derived” theory is correct. And if those experiments show that your derived theory doesn’t account for the data, then what? Do you just fade away like the Cheshire Cat or do you revise the theory as necessary, even if the revision is not consistent with that other theory that you call “physical law”?

I'd like to see whether

your analysis would make my intended posting nonsense, or whether I
could adjust my argument in some rational way to accommodate what
you have shown.

I’d be happy to see you derivation. Maybe it would show that this is a non-argument and that all you are really saying is that you have shown that PCT is consistent with the laws of physics, not that it can be derived from them. I think it would be really neat if your demonstrated the former.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.09.05.1014 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2010.09.05.09.48 –

PCT has created, as Gavin Ritz
had recently noted, a new physics by removing some of the old boundaries.

PCT has created a new psychology, perhaps, and a new biology, but the
physics is 19th century. No new physics was required in order to develop
control theory in machine terms, and no new physics is needed for
PCT.

A control system creates a relationship that (apparently) changes the
local physics. The butcher presses down on the scales with his thumb as
he deposits the meat, so a certain mass of meat is intentionally and
systematically connected to the scale reading by a different function. A
wind blows against the side of a small building, which gives way
slightly. bending a tenth of a millimeter toward the downwind direction.
The man standing next to the building bends into the
wind.

All of the pushing back against disturbances by active means instead of
passive yielding that increases per the handbooks with deflection is new
physics. Not really, of course, but as far as the naive observer can see.
All of the stirring into spontaneous action that occurs without external
cause is new physics and would not be observed unless a hierarchical
control system were present. PCT explains these new apparent physical
relationships. Other theories assume the old ones are still in
place.

Best,

Bill P.

(Gavin Ritz
2010.09.06.10.37NZT)

[From Bill Powers
(2010.09.05.1014 MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2010.09.05.09.48 –

PCT has created, as Gavin
Ritz had recently noted, a new physics by removing some of the old boundaries.

I never said anything about a new physics.
Not sure where this has come from. All I said was that PCT falls within the
physics boundaries and doesn’t require energy to be explained because all
energy forms and qualities are transduced into signals and the energy content of
these incoming energy forms is very low and can be explained by getting energy
from other sources such as nourishment of the organism to transduce them. This
is no different to some of the original assumptions of PCT made in BCP.

I also mentioned in earlier threads that
the Free Energy is then transported to the output functions (actually should be
called “output processing-structures”) that then uses this free energy
to do what the organism needs to do. Like push against the wind, create
paintings, innovate, drive a car.

No new physics here.

I have a really nice name for this “Creative
Assiduity Matter”

PCT has created a new psychology, perhaps, and a new biology, but the physics
is 19th century. No new physics was required in order to develop control theory
in machine terms, and no new physics is needed for PCT.

A control system creates a relationship that (apparently) changes the local
physics. The butcher presses down on the scales with his thumb as he deposits
the meat, so a certain mass of meat is intentionally and systematically
connected to the scale reading by a different function. A wind blows against
the side of a small building, which gives way slightly. bending a tenth of a
millimeter toward the downwind direction. The man standing next to the building
bends into the wind.

All of the pushing back against disturbances by active means instead of passive
yielding that increases per the handbooks with deflection is new physics. Not
really, of course, but as far as the naive observer can see. All of the
stirring into spontaneous action that occurs without external cause is new
physics and would not be observed unless a hierarchical control system were
present. PCT explains these new apparent physical relationships. Other theories
assume the old ones are still in place.

Best,

Bill P.

(Gavin Ritz
2010.09.06.10.39NZT)

[Martin Taylor.2010.08.31.19.25]

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.31.0830)]

Martin Taylor
(2010.08.30.23.05)–

However, that’s not the
point, is it, as I gather from your smiley. The point is that the need for PCT
can be derived from the basic laws of physics with no need for any model
fitting.

All that really happens in an organism is that
the energy is moved from one source to another purposefully.

The currency
of energy in the human ATP is in every single cell. So the human is not a Maxwell’s Demon.

We can
just shift our purposes, focus. That’s it really. The energy is there. Don’t
drink or eat for some time and then see if you have the energy to do anything.

The
transduced signals come from the Perceptual Controlled Variable of “electromagnetic
waves” or whatever the PCV is. We can only transduce a very few forms of energy
and within a very narrow band and the energy quantity is very low once
transduced, that’s the whole trick with Organisms.

PCT
explains this very well.