Discussion Question

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
1

[From Bruce Gregory (990815.1128 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990915.0815)

And again, I agree. But perhaps I can lower your worry quotient
a bit by saying that I think HPCT already _does_ explain what
can be observed about such people; they are controlling
religious perceptions (system concepts) as the means of
controlling even higher level perceptions or (more likely) as
the means of controlling intrinsic perceptions.

Yes, I agree. "Filling a longing heart with contentment" sounds like
eliminating error associated with an intrinsic variable.

Bruce Gregory

2

[From Kenny Kitzke (990914.700)]

<Rick Marken (990913.2200)>

<Is PCT seperate from religion; is it part of religion or
is religion part of PCT?>

According to Webster, religion is: belief in and worship of God or gods.

As far as I understand, PCT is a scientific theory of the behavior or living
things.
According to Webster, science is systematized knowledge derived from
observation.

I think they are separate and distinct perceptions like physics and Buddhism.

Can a person have a reference for religion and PCT at the same time? Of
course.
When a person practices religion (acts in religious ways), is that behavior
explained by PCT? I would say so.

Why dost thou ask?

3

[From Kenny Kitzke (990914.2200)]

<Rick Marken (990914.0830)>

I get worried when we agree on so much. :sunglasses:

What I do not agree with is the HPCT levels or how the top (uniquely human)
references get established. I think there is a better explanation than what
has been proposed. I hope I find the time in 2000 to bring forth more
structure and evidence for an improvement in the HPCT model.

<you can see how what you are doing
(controlling for seeing a spiritual influence on human
behavior) fits into PCT. I am pleasantly surprised.>

Perhaps my moral beliefs and religious system concepts could indeed be
explained by some random reorganization to reduce some set of intrinsic
physiological variables.

But, my proposal is that all humans have an innate capacity to conceive
references that affect matters of the heart which are neither sensual (from
our body nature) or conscious mental activity (from our mind nature). They
are perceived higher than either (from our unique human spirit nature).

For some people, science satisfies their highest heartfelt reference
perceptions for self purpose. For others it takes some religious reference
perceptions beyond science to fill their longing heart with contentment.
And, for the latter, physical and mental needs are a minor part of their
daily lives. HPCT must include and completely explain what can be observed
about what such people do.

That book may be the best selling science book ever published. :sunglasses:

4

[From Rick Marken (990914.0830)]

Kenny Kitzke (990914.700)--

I think they [PCT and religion] are separate and distinct
perceptions like physics and Buddhism.

Yes. I agree. And these perceptions are part of the PCT
model, as system concept type perceptions. So the perception
of PCT itself, like the perceptions of physics, Buddhism, etc,
is a part of the PCT model.

Can a person have a reference for religion and PCT at the
same time? Of course.

Again, I agree. And notice that you are talking about this
in terms of the PCT model (having a "reference" for a
system concept perception, like "religion" and "PCT"). It
is in this sense that I think of religion and PCT and
other system concepts as _part of_ the PCT model. PCT
explains _all_ purposeful behavior: religion, science,
politics, even the behavior of explaining purposeful
behavior.

When a person practices religion (acts in religious ways),
is that behavior explained by PCT? I would say so.

And again I agree; practicing a religion is a purposeful
behavior (control of various perceptions) that is explained
by PCT.

Why dost thou ask?

Just curious. Clearly, you understand PCT the same way I
do; as an explanation of all purposeful behavior, from
keeping your balance to keeping yourself right with some
deity. I'm just wondering if this understanding conflicts
in any way with your control of your religious system
concepts. Actually, it doesn't seem to. I was thinking
that control of religious system concepts --especially
insofar as those concepts purport to be explanations of
human nature -- might get in the way of control of the
PCT system concept. But this doesn't seem to create any
problems for you; you seem to be comfortable with the idea
that your religious behavior, like your PCT behavior, is
done to make perceptual neural signals in your brain match
reference signals that represent the intended state of those
perceptual signals.

So you seem to understand, for example, that your desire
to see a spiritual influence on the PCT hierarchy is a
reference signal, probably set by the system controlling
the perception of your religious system concept, that
specifies a perception of "a spiritual influence on the
PCT hierarchy". That is, you can see how what you are doing
(controlling for seeing a spiritual influence on human
behavior) fits into PCT. I am pleasantly surprised.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

5

[From Rick Marken (990915.0815)]

Kenny Kitzke (990914.2200)]

I get worried when we agree on so much. :sunglasses:
...
For some people, science satisfies their highest heartfelt
reference perceptions for self purpose. For others it takes
some religious reference perceptions beyond science to fill
their longing heart with contentment. And, for the latter,
physical and mental needs are a minor part of their daily lives.

I hate to keep worrying you, but, again, I agree.

HPCT must include and completely explain what can be observed
about what such people do.

And again, I agree. But perhaps I can lower your worry quotient
a bit by saying that I think HPCT already _does_ explain what
can be observed about such people; they are controlling
religious perceptions (system concepts) as the means of
controlling even higher level perceptions or (more likely) as
the means of controlling intrinsic perceptions.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

6

[From Rick Marken (990913.2200)]

Is PCT seperate from religion; is it part of religion or
is religion part of PCT?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/