[Bjorn Simonsen (2006.11.17,09:35 EUST)]
From Bill
Powers (2006.11.16.0735 MST)]
But the normal meaning of “A asks B to do X”,
is that B, not A, is being asked to do X.
Yes, this is
also the Norwegian meaning. But for a PCT-er the next sentence: “This question
is a disturbance for the teacher” could have an effect. I was inexact. I will try to do it
better in the future. “The student asks the teacher for permission to
leave the room” is precise to me.
If you
meant to say that the disturbance has the
value of the disturbance, you would say "the
disturbance has its own value" or just "a value.
" That, in fact, would be correct. The disturbance
has a value that is independent of the values of
both the perceptual signal and the reference signal.
Of course if you said that last sentence as I just
did, there would be no ambiguity caused by pronouns.
Your last but
one sentence confirms my thinking.
“Like”
is vague in that it doesn’t specify the manner
in which A is like B. You say the perceptual signal
is like the reference, but does that mean the perceptual
signal specifies the intended state of a controlled
variable as the reference signal does? Does it mean
the perceptual signal, like the reference signal, is a
train of neural impulses? What the sentence should
say is that the perceptual signal has (almost) the same
value as the reference signal when the steady state
is reached. “Like” is the wrong word for indicating
numerical similarity.
Yes and I
think this is language-independent. I will use “The same value” next time.
The circle
for input quantity indicates a physical
variable, outside the control system, that is affected
by both the disturbance and the feedback effect, additively.
…………
Yes this is
quite OK.
I thought upon
something else. I thought upon “inputs from the outer world” as a PCT concept
different from the disturbance concept.
In the
grammar of some languages, “John hit Bill”
means that Bill was the one who lifted his fist and
directed it onto John’s nose, whereas in English it
means the opposite.
I have never
thought upon this. I must be more observant in the future. I don’t hope “John
ate the fish” has an equivalent meaning.
“Disturbance
affects perception” might be read, using
Swedish grammar (I don’t know if this is true), as
saying that the perception is the causal agent and that
it has an effect on the disturbance.
Neither I know
if this is true. If it is, it is new to me. Maybe Dag could help us?
When
different languages used different word-order
conventions, there is a high risk of confusion in a
technical discussion.
Then we must
explicit, near tediousness when we talk in an international group. I will try
to do my best.
The most
important feedback loop in communication is
the effect of the speaker’s words on the speaker’s own perceptions.
If we are
going to make a PCT “communication” program we must remember many IF THEN
program steps between the feedback effect and the input quantity. Is that
correct?
bjorn