Elements in the PCT model

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.25.2240)]

Martin Taylor (2006.11.25.22.55) --

I hope this is the last one.

Well, maybe one more.

The real essential point, which you seem to be avoiding, is that "disturbance" is a concept that applies only to a controlled perception, not to external events that change an uncontrolled perception.

Gee, I thought this discussion was about the meaning of "disturbance" in PCT. How we got way over to wherever the heck it is that we are, I don't know. And how you can say that I'm avoiding the "real essential point" that "a disturbance is a concept that applies only to a controlled perception" is beyond me. This "real essential point" is part of the PCT definition of a "disturbance" that I just posted today: "Any variable in the environment of a control system that a) contributes to changes in the controlled input quantity and b) is not controlled by the same control system". The term "controlled input quantity" is equivalent to "controlled perception", by the way, in case that was confusing you.

Now let's see if you can use a diagram like the one Bill provided (below) to show the disturbance, input quantity, output variable and reference involved in watching a pretty girl go by.

                                                                                        r
                                                                                     high
                                                                                  visibility
                                                                                        >
                                                            --------------->Comp ------------->
                                                         > >
                                                         > >
Brightness of light ----->visibility of object <------------ degree of squint
                  d qi qo

Best

Rick

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[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0900)]

Fred Nickols (2006.11.26.0722 EST) -

I'm thinking of the sun dipping below the horizon and now I no longer need my sunglasses or sun visor. The sun's rays have ceased to be a disturbance.

Yes, the rays have ceased to be a disturbance in the non-PCT sense of a change in the state of the controlled perception. But the amount of sun rays falling on the object you are trying to see is still a disturbance in the PCT sense of being a physical variable that influences the state of a controlled variable. This can be seen in Bill's diagram:

                                                                                        r
                                                                                     high
                                                                                  visibility
                                                                                        >
                                                            --------------->Comp ------------->
                                                         > >
                                                         > >
Brightness of light ----->visibility of object <------------ degree of squint
                  d qi qo

The brightness of light corresponds to the sum's rays which is a disturbance variable, d, that influences the visibility of the object to be seen, which is the controlled variable, qi. As the sun goes down, the value of d (the amount of sun rays) decreases, going to 0 when the sun goes well below the horizon. The disturbance variable is still influencing qi, though its value now is 0. Of course,when the value of d is 0 it contributes nothing to the value of qi, so there is no "disturbance" to qi in the non-PCT sense a change in qi resulting from outside influences.

Perhaps using the word "disturbance" to describe independent environmental influences on a controlled variable was a mistake because it does suggest that there is a disturbance only when something happens to "push" qi away from its reference value. A more appropriate term may have been "independent variable". But even that could have been confusing to psychologists who would think of d, then, as a variable manipulated by an experimenter in an experiment.

So I guess the only "solution" for those who want to understand PCT is to try to understand the concept of disturbance in PCT.

Best

Rick

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[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0940)]

Martin Taylor (2006.11.26.10.36) -

Just as an example, let's say you are trying to take a picture of an advertising sign, and the girl obscures part of it. You might act by asking her to move away from your sight-line. Here's Bill's picture as you posted it with the words changed to suit the example.

                                                                                                            r
                                 seeing an
                                unobscured
                                   sign

                                     >
                    --------------->Comp ------------->
                    > >
girl walked ----->visibility of object <------ request to
in front of sign move away
     d qi qo

Will that do?

Yes. Thanks for doing it.

You get credit for handing in the assignment but I'm afraid you get a D. You get such a low grade because your answer shows that you do not yet understand what a disturbance is in PCT. "Girl walked in front of sign" is not a disturbance _variable_; it is one value of a disturbance variable. The disturbance variable, d, should have been called something like "position of girl relative to sign", with "girl in front of sign" being only one of many possible states of that variable. The output variable, "request to move away", is not a variable either. It is one state of a variable that could be called something like "what is said to the girl", which can take on at least two possible values: "nothing" and "request to move way".

You got the reference value right, though.

I think you still have to work a bit on understanding what a disturbance is in PCT. No offense, but I think you might want to be sure that you understand what a disturbance is before you start teaching others what it is.

Best

Rick

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[From Fred Nickols (2006.11.26.1302 EST)] --

I just returned from a quick trip to town (in bright sunlight, of course) and I have a different picture of the bright light disturbance issue.

As I drove into town, up and down hills, I was aware of my squinting. It also dawned on me that the squinting behavior (which is output, right?), might owe to some reference condition for driving safely or whatever, but I suspect it ties to some intrinsic reference signal, one have to do with protecting my eyes. Direct sunlight can damage your eyes and I think that's why I/we squint.

In any event, I'm going to chew on this disturbance stuff some more.

Thanks for everyone's patience.

···

--
Regards,

Fred Nickols
Senior Consultant
Distance Consulting
nickols@att.net
www.nickols.us

"Assistance at A Distance"

[From Bill Powers (2006.11.26.1120 MST)]

Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0940) --

(To Martin Taylor)

I think you still have to work a bit on understanding what a disturbance is in PCT. No offense, but I think you might want to be sure that you understand what a disturbance is before you start teaching others what it is.

I notice that people say "no offense" when they know damned well that what they have just said is offensive. Martin Taylor doesn't know what a disturbance is in PCT? Come on.

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2006.11.26.13.06]

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0940)]

I think you still have to work a bit on understanding what a disturbance is in PCT. No offense, but I think you might want to be sure that you understand what a disturbance is before you start teaching others what it is.

No offence taken. I had come to the same conclusion myself, as you could see from my message. But I think the same applies to all of us (you and Bill P. included), right now.

I do (think I) understand the nature of a disturbance _as defined in B:CP_. Your "corrections" contribute nothing to that, since all you do is to complain about the verbal shorthand one must use if one is not to lost the content in the web of verbiage. OK, it's valuable to distinguish "disturbance source", "disturbance variable", and "disturbance variable value" when the context might make the meaning ambiguous. It is pedantic to do so otherwise.

The big problem I now have is how to assess disturbance from a viewpoint other than that of the analyst. The external observr's viewpoint is all we have when we act as experimenters, but the "girl walking" example illustrates that we can have profound disturbances to controlled perceptions that alter the input quantities substantially, with no -- zero -- observable output because of conflicts between different disturbed control systems.

That observation alone is sufficient to lead one to question the iconiv value of "The Test", which is the deliberate application of what is preumed to be a change in a putative disturbing variable.

Suppose you, as an experimenter, asked the girl to walk past the subject, as a Test to see whether it would disturb a variable such as a reference to perceive himself as being close to such an attractive girl. If he got up and made some action to bring himself to her notice, you might argue that it had indeed disturbed some such perceptual variable.

But suppose that the same subject was also controlling a perception of self-image that would depart from its reference value if he acted contrary to what he perceived as "proper" social behaviour, and that his perception of "proper" behaviour included not intruding on the privacy of people to whom he had not been introduced. That control system would conflict with the "get close to the girl" system. One would reduce error if he got up, the other would increase error if he got up. For the sake of the example, we assume the latter wins, and he sits still, making no overt action as she walks by.

You have applied "The Test", and obtained the result that application of the presumed disturbance has resulted on no output. According to all I have seen on CSGnet and heard in PCT discussions, you would conclude that the girl's passage disturbed no controlled perception. But it did.

The other problem I have with finding a precise definition of "disturbance" is the continuity of degree of control between zero and non-zero amounts. It's one thing if there is no pathway connecting the presumed disturbance source with the perceptual signal in question, but it's quite another if there is such a pathway and change in the value of the disturbing variable fails to result in a countering change in output. In that case, the external observer can't distinguish among four cases, at least not by observing the putative disturbing variable and the input quantity or (equivalently) the countervailing effects of control:

(1) The change in the putative disturbing variable does not influence the perception;
(2) The change in the putative disturbing variable influences the perception, but the perception is not controlled (i.e. there is either no reference value for the perception);
(3) The change...does influence the perception, which is controlled, but the control gain is near zero because controlling that perception is for the moment of low priority (I'll expand this below);
(4) the change .... influences a controlled perception, but the output does not influence the perception (e.g. a prisoner with a reference to perceive himself to be out shopping).

Case 3 needs a little more explanation than is reasonable in a list like the above. I'm thinking of a thresholded system, in which the input to the output function remains zero so long as the error is less than some threshold. In modelling the many tracks in my sleep-loss study, all the models with such a threshold fit better than the same models with zero threshold, so it's not an abstract possibility.

This case 3 situation makes the definition of "disturbance" rather problematic, even for a single isolated control loop that evinces good control for sufficiently large disturbance variable values. When the error value is near zero, small changes in the value of the disturbing variable result in zero change in output. One might easily say that such small changes do not constitute disturbances at all. But should one say that, when the only difference between that situation and one that produces good coutervailing output is in the value of the putative disturbing variable?

My thought at the moment is that it's fairly easy to find clear cases in which a putative disturbance can be shown to actually disturb some controlled perception, but it's not easy to show that a change in a person's environment is not a disturbance to any particular controlled perception, and it's not easy to determine (except in simple cases such as Rick's studies of geometric control) just what controlled perception or perceptions is/are being disturbed when it is clear that at least one is.

From the analyst's viewpoint, it's easy. The analyst knows all the connections, and if there is a control loop that goes from some point influenced by the putative disturbance source, back to that same point, then the source really is a disturbance source for that perception.

The analyst has that luxury, but nobody else does. And that makes it difficult to provide an operational (i.e. experimentally observable) definition of a disturbance.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.1100)]

Bill Powers (2006.11.26.1005 MST)--

There is no "official" definition of a disturbance in PCT. One variable d, obviously, disturbs the state of another variable qi if the value of qi depends partly on the value of d, and d is nonzero. That's just common sense, not PCT. It is true not only of d and qi, but of x and y, h and z, and any other pair of interacting variables. That is all there is to it, whether there is a control system or not.

Ok. So Martin's diagram below is correct from your perspective?

                                      seeing an
                                     unobscured
                                          sign

                                             >
                    --------------->Comp ------------->
                    > >
                    > >
girl walked ----->visibility of object <------ request to
in front of sign move away
     d qi qo

Best

Rick

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marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
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[Martin Taylor 2006.11.26.14.00]

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0900)]

Fred Nickols (2006.11.26.0722 EST) -

I'm thinking of the sun dipping below the horizon and now I no longer need my sunglasses or sun visor. The sun's rays have ceased to be a disturbance.

Yes, the rays have ceased to be a disturbance in the non-PCT sense of a change in the state of the controlled perception.

And in the PCT sense, too.

The brightness of light corresponds to the sum's rays which is a disturbance variable, d, that influences the visibility of the object to be seen, which is the controlled variable, qi. As the sun goes down, the value of d (the amount of sun rays) decreases, going to 0 when the sun goes well below the horizon. The disturbance variable is still influencing qi, though its value now is 0.

No, it isn't. The physical connection between the sun and the eye has been broken, and even if the sun flared up or extinguished itself, it would not influence the driver's perception (at least not until the consequent disasters were felt :-). The sun is the disturbance source, the brightness the disturbing variable. If the sun's brightness is disconnected from the perceived brightness, then it can't conribute a disturbing variable to the perception.

Of course,when the value of d is 0 it contributes nothing to the value of qi, so there is no "disturbance" to qi in the non-PCT sense a change in qi resulting from outside influences.

Nor is there a disturbance (disturbing variable) in the PCT sense.

So I guess the only "solution" for those who want to understand PCT is to try to understand the concept of disturbance in PCT.

Yep. See my other message of a few minutes ago.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.1140)]

Bill Powers (2006.11.26.1120 MST)

Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0940) --

(To Martin Taylor)

I think you still have to work a bit on understanding what a disturbance is in PCT. No offense, but I think you might want to be sure that you understand what a disturbance is before you start teaching others what it is.

I notice that people say "no offense" when they know damned well that what they have just said is offensive. Martin Taylor doesn't know what a disturbance is in PCT? Come on.

You are absolutely right.

Martin, I humbly and sincerely apologize, though I know that you are pretty thick skinned and don't suffer much from rudeness from anyone, and certainly not from me. But I am sorry. I don't know why I seem to get such a kick out of fighting with you; it seems to provide some kind of meaning in my otherwise depressing failure of a life. Maybe it's jealousy. Maybe it's because I agree with you so totally about everything else that matters and PCT is the only thing I have to cling to for some sense of self definition. Whatever. So though I'm sure my insults bounce off you painlessly, without your even noticing, I sincerely apologize because I feel embarrassed before my own conscience.

Best regards

Rick

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[From Bill Powers (2006.11.26.1810 MST)]

Rick Marken (2006.11.26.1140) --

You are absolutely right.

This is a case where I don't much enjoy being right. Thanks for doing the right thing.

Best,

Bill

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.26.1140)]

Bill Powers (2006.11.26.1120 MST)

Rick Marken (2006.11.26.0940) --

I notice that people say "no offense" when they know damned well that what they have just said is offensive. Martin Taylor doesn't know what a disturbance is in PCT? Come on.

You are absolutely right.

Martin, I humbly and sincerely apologize, though I know that you are pretty thick skinned and don't suffer much from rudeness from anyone, and certainly not from me.

Thank you.

I don't think I am thick-skinned, really. Some things do get me annoyed. Aspersions on my competence don't, because either they are correct or they are wrong. If they are correct, and I perceive them as such, my perception of my competence increases its deviation from my reference value for that perception (the error here is always large, anyway). So I try to act to reduce the error. If I can, that's good. If I can't, so be it. It's no reflection on the person who originally cast the aspersion.

If I don't accept the comment as being correct, why should it bother me? What controlled perception would you expect to be disturbed? I might change my perception (opinion) of the other person, but that's not usually controlled.

But I am sorry. I don't know why I seem to get such a kick out of fighting with you;

It's been fun for 14 or 15 years. Why should it cease being fun now? There's usually some truth on both sides when we have a verbal fight, isn't there?

Maybe it's because I agree with you so totally about everything else that matters and PCT is the only thing I have to cling to for some sense of self definition. Whatever. So though I'm sure my insults bounce off you painlessly, without your even noticing, I sincerely apologize because I feel embarrassed before my own conscience.

Control of your own self-image perception, I guess.

Anyway thanks for the apology. It's good for CSGnet as a whole, I think.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2006.11.27.0915)]

Martin Taylor (2006.11.26.13.06)

My thought at the moment is that it's fairly easy to find clear cases in which a putative disturbance can be shown to actually disturb some controlled perception, but it's not easy to show that a change in a person's environment is not a disturbance to any particular controlled perception, and it's not easy to determine (except in simple cases such as Rick's studies of geometric control) just what controlled perception or perceptions is/are being disturbed when it is clear that at least one is.

The last paper I published (which is called _Optical Trajectories and the Informational Basis of Fly Ball Catching_
and is now available on the net as a pdf file at Baseball Catching Research) is all about how to use properly applied disturbances to hypothetical controlled variables to determine whether these variables are, indeed, under control.

I think the problem of PCT-based research is not to try to determine what controlled perception or perceptions is/are being disturbed; the problem is to determine whether a variable that is being disturbed is actually under control. The experiments I describe in the _Optical Trajectories_ paper would be hard to do in real life but could be done easily using computer simulation (as in a video game). I'm not a good enough programmer to write the necessary programs, I'm afraid.

If I had a nice, big research budget I would hire a programmer to write the required programs, and I would take a generous salary myself as the idea man behind it;-) But, alas, I have no research budget and I can barely afford our season tickets to the opera. (Although we did get to sit with Placido Domingo and his family yesterday while watching his company, LA Opera, put on a wonderful production of Hansel and Gretel by the _real_ Englelbert Humperdink).

Best

Rick

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