Alas, once again no Powers or Marken references.
Ted
[From Rick Marken (2014.09.30.1330)]
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On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 7:29 AM, Ted Cloak tcloak@unm.edu wrote:
Alas, once again no Powers or Marken references.
Ted
RM: Thanks Ted. I think we’re not mentioned because it’s not really about control. Control doesn’t involve decision or choice; indeed, from a control theory point of view deciding and choosing are what we do when we are in a conflict. When we run to catch a ball we don’t decide which way to move our legs at each instant; we just move as necessary to keep perceptual aspects of the situation – such as the vertical and horizontal optical velocity of the ball – under control (at their reference values).
Best
Rick
–
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble
[From Rick Marken (2014.09.30.1910)]
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Richard Pfau (2014:09.30.18:15EDT)–
Regarding: [Rick Marken (2014.09.30.1330)]
RM: … Control doesn’t involve decision or choice; indeed, from a control theory point of view deciding and choosing are what we do when we are in a conflict…
RP: The statement above (highlighted by me in bold) seems to apply to relatively automatic behavior.
RM: Yes, it refers to skilled controlling. But your comment makes me realize that choice actually is part of some skilled (automatic) controlling; specifically, control of what Bill called “program” perceptions. These are perceptions where choice points are part of the perception to be controlled. One example I thought of (since it’s baseball playoff season) is the behavior called “fielder’s choice”. This is where a fielder – typically an infielder – gets the ball and has a choice of where to throw for the out – say, home or first. For a novice, this behavior probably does involve a choice because the player is in a conflict – he can’t throw to both places though he wants to. So there is probably some real decision making that goes on that takes time and can make it so that the novice can take neither course of action for long enough that the out can’t be made. But I think a skilled infielder is controlling a program perception in the fielder’s choice situation; a program such as “if you have a play at the plate go there otherwise go to first”. The skilled fielder knows he can’t go to both places simultaneously so he instantly carries out the “fielder’s choice” program and makes an out at the right location.
RP: But it doesn’t seem to apply to consciously planning how to achieve many future goals/desired perceptions.
RM: Yes, that’s been my experience. When you are planning (which is not the same as carrying out the plan – ie. controlling; well, it’s controlling in imagination) you are likely to run into many conflicts – like should we go to movie A or B. There is all kinds of decision making going on, which is really a reorganization process aimed at resolving these conflicts.
RP: For example, if I want to see a particular movie, I may simply look at a newspaper, decide/choose a time to see it, and then go see the movie.
RM: If you did this smoothly and easily, with no fighting with yourself, then I would say that any “choosing” was just part of your carrying out the program perception: finding a movie to see. But if you hesitated and thought “maybe another movie would be more fun” then I would say you were deciding as a result of conflict.
RP: In such a case I have consciously made a decision/choice and controlled my behavior to achieve my desired perception.
RM: Well, you varied your behavior as necessary to achieve your desired perception. But, again, I would not say there was any “deciding” going on (other than the choice occurring at choice points in a controlled a program perception) unless you reached a point where you had difficulty choosing one movie over another.
RP: In addition, (in contrast to the statement above, “deciding and choosing are what we do when we are on conflict”), I have made my decision and seen the movie without being in conflict.
RM: Yes, and I can believe that you did the deciding without conflict if the deciding (choosing) was part of a controlled program perception.
RP: Am I missing something or is the RM statement not applicable to many choices and decisions?
RM: As I said, my statement is not applicable to choices/decisions that are made as part of controlling a program perception (like the perception of carrying out a fielder’s choice" play). I think you can tell (by observing the behavior) whether the observed choice/decision was a result of control or part of a controlled program perception. If the latter, the choice will be made smoothly and virtually instantly; if the former, there will be considerable hesitation (from a few seconds to a few hours or days… or years) and possibly some visible oscillation between the alternatives.
RM: By the way, the kind of goal-oriented behavior they are talking about in the subject article is what we would call skilled controlling – not controlling that involves conflict – so the idea that it involves decision making is simply based on a misunderstanding of how control works.
Best regards
Rick
With Regards,
Richard Pfau
–
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble
[From Rick Marken (2014.09.30.1930)]
Correction: I said:
···
Rick Marken (2014.09.30.1910)]
That should say:
I think you can tell (by observing the behavior) whether the observed choice/decision was a result of conflict or part of a controlled program perception.
Then the rest makes sense.
Best
Rick
–
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble
RM: I think you can tell (by observing the behavior) whether the observed choice/decision was a result of control or part of a controlled program perception.