Entropic Systems

(Gavin Ritz 2009.11.09.14.18NZT)

Hi there Rick and others

If limitations and
constraints are entropic properties (and they should be) as any limitation
increases order. ( Ashby, RW, 1957 & Chalidze, V, 2000)

And all laws (including scientific
laws) are constraints and as the law of energy conservation is a constraint.(
Ashby, RW, 1957). (This follows too that Reorganization Theory is also entropic).

Then why does it not
follow that the Law of Energy Conservation is not entropic after all it’s
an iron clad law.

Kind regards

Gavin

···

[From Rick Marken (2009.11.09.1935)]

···

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Gavin Ritz garritz@xtra.co.nz wrote:

(Gavin Ritz 2009.11.09.14.18NZT)

Hi there Rick and others

If limitations and
constraints are entropic properties (and they should be) as any limitation
increases order. ( Ashby, RW, 1957 & Chalidze, V, 2000)

And all laws (including scientific
laws) are constraints and as the law of energy conservation is a constraint.(
Ashby, RW, 1957). (This follows too that Reorganization Theory is also entropic).

Then why does it not
follow that the Law of Energy Conservation is not entropic after all it’s
an iron clad law.

Got me. I think one the the others will have to answer that. Physics is not my forte.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

(Gavin Ritz 2009.11.09.16.55NZT)

[From
Rick Marken (2009.11.09.1935)]

(Gavin Ritz 2009.11.09.14.18NZT)

Hi there Rick and others

If limitations and constraints are entropic properties (and they
should be) as any limitation increases order. ( Ashby, RW, 1957 & Chalidze,
V, 2000)

And all laws (including scientific laws) are constraints and as the
law of energy conservation is a constraint.( Ashby, RW, 1957). (This follows
too that Reorganization Theory is also entropic).

Then why does it not follow that the Law of Energy Conservation is
not entropic after all it’s an iron clad law.

Got me. I think one the the others will have to answer that. Physics is not my
forte.

Why don’t you call Reorganization
the “Entropy” of the system?

Regards

Gavin

···

[From Rick Marken (2009.11.09.1030)]

Gavin Ritz (2009.11.09.16.55NZT)

Why don’t you call Reorganization
the “Entropy” of the system?

Entropy, as I understand it, describes a state of a system; the state of “disorder”; reorganization, on the other hand, refers to a process; variation in the the rate of random change in system parameters as a function of the level of error in the system.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

( Gavin
Ritz, 2009.11.10.9.25NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2009.11.09.1030)]

Gavin Ritz (2009.11.09.16.55NZT)

Why
don’t you call Reorganization the “Entropy” of the system?

Entropy, as I understand it, describes a state of a system; the state of
“disorder”; reorganization

Entropy is actually the measure of the arrangements
of things. So in other words a measure of organisation. Disorder is just one qualitative
state of an arrangement

, on the other hand,
refers to a process; variation in the the rate of random change in system
parameters as a function of the level of error in the system.

Is this not the same thing in a different way?

Best

Gavin

···

[From Rick Marken (2009.11.09.1320)]

Gavin
Ritz, (2009.11.10.9.25NZT)

Rick Marken
(2009.11.09.1030)]

Gavin Ritz (2009.11.09.16.55NZT)

Why
don’t you call Reorganization the “Entropy” of the system?

Entropy, as I understand it, describes a state of a system; the state of
“disorder”; reorganization

Entropy is actually the measure of the arrangements
of things. So in other words a measure of organisation. Disorder is just one qualitative
state of an arrangement

OK, so entropy is a variable. It’s still not a process.

, on the other hand,
refers to a process; variation in the the rate of random change in system
parameters as a function of the level of error in the system.

Is this not the same thing in a different way?

Sure. It’s exactly the same thing, only different;-)

You can call “reorganization” whatever you like, as far as I’m concerned. What matter to me is knowing what “reorganization” is, and I think that is best captured by computer algorithms rather than by names.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

( Gavin
Ritz 2009.11.09.13.19NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2009.11.09.1320)]

Gavin
Ritz, (2009.11.10.9.25NZT)

Rick Marken
(2009.11.09.1030)]

Gavin Ritz (2009.11.09.16.55NZT)

Why don’t
you call Reorganization the “Entropy” of the system?

Entropy, as I understand it, describes a state of a system; the state of
“disorder”; reorganization

Entropy
is actually the measure of the arrangements of things. So in other words a
measure of organisation. Disorder is just one qualitative state of an
arrangement

OK, so entropy is a variable. It’s still not a process.

Entropy is a process not a variable. It’s
like a function. That’s why it’s called entropy production.

, on the other hand,
refers to a process; variation in the the rate of random change in system
parameters as a function of the level of error in the system.

Is this
not the same thing in a different way?

Sure. It’s exactly
the same thing, only different;-)

You can call “reorganization” whatever you like, as far as I’m
concerned. What matter to me is knowing what “reorganization” is, and
I think that is best captured by computer algorithms rather than by names.

It’s not the names but rather the
implication of what something is or maybe isnt. The implication that
Reorganization is actually entropic gives great opportunities to compare it to
scientific thought and open new ideas.

A Computer algorithm can’t tell what
it is. Philosophically PCT is a very smart and clever model and I like to look
and think about things you guys have developed and make sense of it from my own
perspective.

This is important to me because I’m
sitting with 3 models two that I have developed. One that measures and assesses
human motivation and values the other that assess human organisation both work
and very well and the other model is Jaques RO, this works too, and I am keen to integrate that in PCT. But it’s
much more difficult than I imagined. PCT has something that is missing in all
these models a robust feedback model, but I have what PCT does not and that’s
a robust concept of some of the HPCT levels. I can measure things especially on
the higher levels.

Maybe you don’t “know”
all the potential possibilities of “Reorganization” then. And that’s
okay.

Human knowledge is partly created by
connecting unrelated concepts and creating new ones better than the old ones. And
that’s Entropic and a Reorganization in PCT parlance.

Best

Gavin

···