Evangelical Control Theory

From[Bill Williams 16 May 2004 10:50 AM CST]

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2004.05.16.0945 CDT)]

In a revealing description Bryan says,

I am not here to create a group just for courteous
people, only for people who act in a manner that does
not discourage others from participating in and
evangelizing the theory.

This statement by Bryan that PCT is an "evangelizing theory" confirms what I
have long thought about the lunatic fringe that has for some time been
developing on the CSGnet and CSG.

The problem as I see it is that very few of the subscribers to the CSGnet
are actually active participants in developing or applying control theory.
The experience has been that groups attempting to apply control theory in a
clinical setting have all introduced eclectic or extraneous material into
their practice, in a way that eventually appears to exclude the use of
control theory.

And, surprizingly when Bill Powers attempts to apply control theory in my
field, he has done so in a way that combines control theory and what amount
to paranoid delusions concerning economic theory and the economics
profession. To think of Keynes as a servant of the business interests
displays an stunning unfamiarlity with the history of the 20th century.
But, Bill Powers as a matter of personal preference is determined to attempt
to create a PCT economics which combines control theory and a ghost dance
with his dad's Leakage thesis. Actually, I think Bill Powers by now has
recognized that this attempt won't work. But, he doesn't seem inclined to
admit that he went off the tracks when he attempted to combine control
theory with his dad's Leakages thesis. Just the sort of blunder that Rick
is always, and rightly so, cautioning people not to make-- combining control
theory eclectically with extraneous dogmas.

And, now we finally have it, thanks to Bryan, a version of control theory
that is safe for the Evangelicals-- ECT.

Ironically this emerges just when Bill Powers is 15 May CSGnet is describin
g belief in terms of insanity.

"I'm beginning to think that belief is a form of mental illness."

Given Bill Powers view of belief, whatever is he going to do to prevent the
true believers from flocking to Bryan's Evangelical Control Theory?

Bill Williams

From Ray Bennett 17th.may 2004 5:20pm CST Aust

One of the reasons for me to unsubscribe is shown here.

"This statement by Bryan that PCT is an "evangelizing theory" confirms what
I have long thought about the lunatic fringe that has for some time been
developing on the CSGnet and CSG."

This sort of comment is not necessary. It is personal and helps no one. If
Bill wants to point out how PTC relates to economics, great. Show us and let
us learn from him. Personal put downs, even if based on correctness, are
scary and not of any help.

The basis of my wishing to unsubscribe is that I have to delete too much and
to read to much unhelpful stuff.

Now I don't want a barrage of support or defence. Just cut out the putdowns
and the personal references and write what is known as to how PCT relates to
your areas of expertise {or areas you want some expertise in}.

Regards,
Ray

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Williams
Sent: Monday, 17 May 2004 2:16 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Evangelical Control Theory

From[Bill Williams 16 May 2004 10:50 AM CST]

[From Bryan Thalhammer (2004.05.16.0945 CDT)]

In a revealing description Bryan says,

I am not here to create a group just for courteous
people, only for people who act in a manner that does
not discourage others from participating in and
evangelizing the theory.

This statement by Bryan that PCT is an "evangelizing theory" confirms what I
have long thought about the lunatic fringe that has for some time been
developing on the CSGnet and CSG.

The problem as I see it is that very few of the subscribers to the CSGnet
are actually active participants in developing or applying control theory.
The experience has been that groups attempting to apply control theory in a
clinical setting have all introduced eclectic or extraneous material into
their practice, in a way that eventually appears to exclude the use of
control theory.

And, surprizingly when Bill Powers attempts to apply control theory in my
field, he has done so in a way that combines control theory and what amount
to paranoid delusions concerning economic theory and the economics
profession. To think of Keynes as a servant of the business interests
displays an stunning unfamiarlity with the history of the 20th century.
But, Bill Powers as a matter of personal preference is determined to attempt
to create a PCT economics which combines control theory and a ghost dance
with his dad's Leakage thesis. Actually, I think Bill Powers by now has
recognized that this attempt won't work. But, he doesn't seem inclined to
admit that he went off the tracks when he attempted to combine control
theory with his dad's Leakages thesis. Just the sort of blunder that Rick
is always, and rightly so, cautioning people not to make-- combining control
theory eclectically with extraneous dogmas.

And, now we finally have it, thanks to Bryan, a version of control theory
that is safe for the Evangelicals-- ECT.

Ironically this emerges just when Bill Powers is 15 May CSGnet is describin
g belief in terms of insanity.

"I'm beginning to think that belief is a form of mental illness."

Given Bill Powers view of belief, whatever is he going to do to prevent the
true believers from flocking to Bryan's Evangelical Control Theory?

Bill Williams

From[Bill Williams 17 May 2004 10:15 AM CST]

From Ray Bennett 17th.may 2004 5:20pm CST Aust

One of the reasons for me to unsubscribe is shown here.

Ray hasn't been paying all that close attention to what takes place on the
CSGnet.. He like many other CSGnet subscribers apparently find nothing wrong
with Bill Powers describing some prominent economists in terms of assholes
and tax cheats. Or, describing me as garbage. His sensitivity thus runs in a
biased track.

"This statement by Bryan that PCT is an "evangelizing theory" confirms

what

I have long thought about the lunatic fringe that has for some time been
developing on the CSGnet and CSG."

This sort of comment is not necessary.

Oh, but from my standpoint it is

>It is personal and helps no one.

As, If Bryan hasn't been personal?

If Bill wants to point out how PTC relates to
economics, great.

Actually this doesn't work quite the way Ray think it does.
There really has been a pathological element to Bill Powers involvement
with his dad's economics. I avoided it for years, and didn't any problem
with Bill Powers. So, I wasn't I that "wanted" to show anybody about
economics, it was Bill Powers who "wanted" me to go to work to promote his
dad's stuff. So, lets try and put the blame where it belongs.

Show us and let us learn from him.

Ray, you haven't been paying attention. Take a look at the Boston Tape of
Rick Marken's presentation-- the presentaion that Bill Powers later
described in part in terms of a "giant leap in the wrong direction."

Personal put downs, even if based on correctness, are

scary and not of any help.

However, you don't seem to find Bill Powers paranoid remarks on economics
"scary."

The basis of my wishing to unsubscribe is that I have to delete too much

and

to read to much unhelpful stuff.

Again, perhaps if you had paid closer attention what happened with the
economics thread might make better sense for you.

Now I don't want a barrage of support or defence.

Of course not.

Just cut out the putdowns and the personal references >and write what is

known as to how PCT relates to

your areas of expertise {or areas you want some >expertise in}.

The 'Just cut out putdowns" you say. Again, it was Bill Powers who found it
"helpful" to introduce the concept of "asshole" into discussion on the
economics thread long before I realized the potential of these magic
words.

My suggestion Ray, would be for you to check out what Bill Powers has really
been up to in regard to the economics thread. All that it ought to take is
to a reading of Roy Harrod's biography of Keynes and it ought to be apparent
that Keynes' role in economic thought has nothing at all to do with the
delusion that Bill Power borrowed from his dad concerning Keynes. The whole
thing with Powers' is connected to a ghost dance that Bill Powers is engaged
in with his dad. Everything else is a surface crust of temporary
reasonablity that forms from time to time and then breaks down under the
currents that are in motion deep beneath the surface.

So, thank you very much for you advice, but if you don't wish to put forth
the energy to understand what has been going on, you are like that audience
in Boston-- you don't have the information required to come to an informed
opinion.

Bill Williams

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.17.1106 MST)]

Bill Williams 17 May 2004 10:15 AM CST--

Ray hasn't been paying all that close attention to what takes place on the
CSGnet.. He like many other CSGnet subscribers apparently find nothing wrong
with Bill Powers describing some prominent economists in terms of assholes
and tax cheats.

I didn't describe them that way..

Or, describing me as garbage.

I didn't describe you that way.

There really has been a pathological element to Bill Powers involvement
with his dad's economics.

No, there hasn't.

it was Bill Powers who "wanted" me to go to work to promote his
dad's stuff.

That isn't what I asked.

the presentaion that Bill Powers later
described in part in terms of a "giant leap in the wrong direction."

I did not describe his presentation, in part, as a giant leap in the wrong
direction.

However, you don't seem to find Bill Powers paranoid remarks on economics
"scary."

My remarks were not and are not paranoid.

it was Bill Powers who found it "helpful" to introduce the concept of
"asshole" into discussion on the economics thread long before I realized
the potential of these magic words.

No, it wasn't.

the delusion that Bill Power borrowed from his dad concerning Keynes.

It did not concern Keynes, and was not a delusion. I have formed my own
opinions about Keynes.

The whole thing with Powers' is connected to a ghost dance that Bill
Powers is engaged in with his dad.

No, it isn't.

So, thank you very much for you advice, but if you don't wish to put forth
the energy to understand what has been going on, you are like that audience
in Boston-- you don't have the information required to come to an informed
opinion.

Yes, that audience did.

Aside from getting every single point above wrong, Bill, have you anything
constructive to say?.

Bill P.

From[Bill Williams 17 May 2004 2:30 PM CST]

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.17.1106 MST)]

In an earlier post to Ray I made the argument that among the problems that
have plagued the discussion of economic theory on the CSGnet has been a lack
of sufficient understanding on the part of the audience as to the issues
involved. And, I pointed out as an example of this Rick's presentation of
(No, I will not describe it as a model.) his H. Economicus paper. The
audience with two, or perhaps possibly three exceptions apparently everyon
thought the paper was just fine. ( Look at the tape from Boston if there is
any question.)

I said to Ray,

>So, thank you very much for you advice, but if you don't wish to put

forth

>the energy to understand what has been going on, you are like that

audience

>in Boston-- you don't have the information required to come to an

informed

>opinion.

Yes, that audience did.

What you are saying, if I understand you, is that the audience at Boston was
in fact in a good position to make an informed judgement concerning Rick's
paper.
I am astonished that you would say this. And, I can not believe that you
actually think this.

Aside from getting every single point above wrong,

Which is not the case.

Bill, have you anything constructive to say?.

In the above in reply to your absurd claim that the audience in Boston was
equiped to reach an informed opinion concerning Rick's paper I made a
constructive contribution. Your attempt to think about economics really is
a ghost dance with your dad. It doesn't in comparison have much to do with
me. By claiming that the Boston audience was equiped to assess Rick's paper
you add one more absurdity to a long chain of absurdities that you have
introduced into the economics thread. You thinking about economics really
has expressed, among other things, parnoid delusions.

I think I will see about retriving your "giant steps in the wrong direction"
critique, and re-posting it.

Bill Williams

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.17.1416 MST)]

Bill Williams 17 May 2004 2:30 PM CST --

I think I will see about retriving your "giant steps in the wrong
direction"critique, and re-posting it.

Feel free. Only read what it says, carefully (not your strongest point).

I will not be replying to any further posts from you unless they contain
something of substance. rather than another recitation of your favorite
list of vintage grievances.

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.17.1416 MST)]

Bill Williams 17 May 2004 2:30 PM CST --

I think I will see about retriving your "giant steps in the wrong
direction"critique, and re-posting it.

It was dated 030206.1456 MST.

I was quite critical of Rick's model (3 years after the Boston meeting, so
I was not critical of his presentation), and the phrase misquoted (as
usual) by you was "I think it's a giant leap, but not in the right
direction." This referred to the claim in the model that there is a control
system monitoring GNP or something of the sort. I pulled no punches; in
fact, I've been tougher on "my lapdog" than just about anyone else, because
I know Rick is a first-rate modeler and I expect more of him than of others
who are less skillful at it -- for example, you.

I think you will find that your other gripes are based on even less
reliable memories of what I (or someone else) said, coupled with an even
larger dose of malicious imagination.

Bill P>

From[Bill Williams 17 May 2004 6:00 PM CST]

From Bill Powers (2004.05.17.1416 MST)]

Bill Williams 17 May 2004 2:30 PM CST --

The "giant steeps in the wrong direction" posting seems to have slipped
beyond easy reach.

I thought it was an excellent critique. Rick wouldn't listen to me. But,
then Rick wouldn't really listen to you either.

You say that you were

quite critical of Rick's model (3 years after the Boston > meeting, so I

was not critical of his presentation),

I don't follow what you are trying to say in the above. I don't understand
it because it looks as if you are saying that you were not explicitly
critical at Boston because you were severely critical of what he was doing
three years later.

and the phrase misquoted (as

usual) by you was "I think it's a giant leap, but not in the right
direction." This referred to the claim in the model that there is a

control

system monitoring GNP or something of the sort.

Or as you say, "something of the sort. " Would you like to explain again,
the error? Maybe with a little more instruction we can get it straight
which direction it was that Rick was leaping.

I pulled no punches; in fact, I've been tougher on "my >lapdog" than just

about anyone else, because

I know Rick is a first-rate modeler and I expect more of >him than of

others who are less skillful at it -- for >example, you.

I am sorry you are so angry. Last post you were making an absurd claim that
the audience in Boston was in a position to evaluate issues in economic
theory. Maybe you were in a position to make an assessment-- but you for
some reason made a choice not to do so.

Now, you are making other absurd claim. Rick's attempts to do economic
modeling has been a complete bust. And, as far as I can tell, based upon the
posts, he still doesn't understand why. The emails on the CSGnet clearly
indicated this. There was I time that what you say above might have been
distrubed me. But, this is so completely implausible, all you have to do is
take a look at the last time you requested comments on the test bed. Rick
said it was great. I provided some suggestions that, when you made use of
them made the test bed a lot more useable.

The basis you have for a dispute with me is that we differ in regard to
Keynes. Partly it may be frustration because as you admit, you don't
understand Keynes.
This may be connected to your having something of a complusion to attack
Keynes. I am inclined to knock this sort of nonsense in the dirt. You
might take the trouble to inform yourself before making wildly implausible
accusations.

I think you will find that your other gripes are based on >even less

reliable memories

What "gripes." All that has been happening has been that you have been
making reddiculous, and by-the-way
untrue accusations. I have been tagging you with descriptions like, crank,
and crackpot. My accusations are true, because what you have been saying,
isn't true.

You raise the question about memories. First, My memories are more
accurate than Rick's. Rick had the idea that everyone had dumped on him at
the Boston meeting-- but check the tape.

And, second, I don't think you are in a good position to complain about
someone's unreliable memories-- not when you pushed your dad's book on
people even though you knew that it was incoherent-- as a result of its
being written by a man who could not remember from one day to the next what
he had writen the previous day.
Compared to your dad, or what you say, or what Rick says, I think my
memory is in good shape.

And, as for you accusation that others have exhibited "shocking stupidy" in
the disputes in which you have been involved, you have said lots of stuff
that you later regreted. Maybe at the present moment you are saying things
that you know aren't true-- because this is the way that you think that you
can win an argument. It doesn't work with me, not well enough to make it
worth your trying.

of what I (or someone else) said, coupled with an even

larger dose of malicious imagination.

You can say this, if you wish. However, I don't have to resort to a
malicious imagination. The sort of emotions that you have in connection with
the econmic modeling have unfortunately resulted in this dispute-- a dispute
which I managed to avoid for a number of years. But, reluctant as I was to
engage in this dispute, I have learned a thing or two in the course of the
dispute.

But, enough all ready, as I think Bryan once said.

By-the-way how are things coming with the good professor Bruun? Have you
managed to deprogram her from her thraldom to Keynes? And, have you figured
out p. 87. in her dissertation yet?

Bill Williams

From[Bill Williams 17 May 2004 7:30 PM CST]

Half a year ago when the disputes on the economic thread began,

one of the passages I posted to the CSGnet was a section

from Bronislaw Malionowski's 1948 _Magic, Science and

Religion_. In the section Malinowski says,

      "...any drawing of conclusions, or arguing by the

     law of logical contradiction, is absolutely futile

     in the realm of belief, belief savage or civilized.

     Two beliefs, quite contradictory to each other on

     logical grounds may coexist, while a perfectly

     obvious inference from a very firm tenant may be

     simplify ignored." p. 220

Economics and economic theory are topics that for some people

are associated with intense emotions. Theoretical economics

has in a materialistic culture taken on somewhat of the role that

religion once exercised. And, in the realm of theoretical economics

belief is a commodity that fuels much of what takes place. But, there

are limits to what even belief can do. And, the orthodoxy that has

been dominant in economics for two and a quarter century may

be coming close to the end of the period in which it can sustain

itself. For one thing the model of Economic Man which is a critical

part of the orthodox scheme is too simplistic to be plausible and

too inflexible to be modified. However, orthodoxy economics

expresses a conception of the economic process that has many

uses. Keynes expounded upon this feature of orthodox economic

theory saying, that Ricardo, the foremost economist of his day,

had,

      "... conquered England as completely as the

  Holy Inquisition conquered Spain. Not only was his

  theory accepted by the city, by statesman and by the

  academic world. But controversy ceased; the other point

  of view completely disappeared; it ceased to be discussed.

     The completeness of the Ricardian victory is something

  of a curiosity and a mystery. It must have been due to a

  complex of suitabilies in the doctrine to the environment

  into which it was projected. That it reached conclusions

  quite different from what the ordinary uninstructed person

  would expect, added, I suppose, to its intellectual prestige.

  That its teaching, translated into practice, was austere and

  often unpalatable, lent it virtue. That it was adapted to

  carry a vast and consistent logical superstructure, gave it

  beauty. That it could explain much social injustice and

  apparent cruelty as an inevitable incident in the scheme

  of progress, and the attempt to change such things as likely

  on the whole to do more harm than good, commended it to

  authority. that it afforded a measure of justification to

  the free activities of the individual capitalist, attracted

  to it the support of the dominant social force behind

  authority. p. 33.

      John Maynard Keynes 1936 _The General Theory_

Still almost seven decades later the dominant theorical conception in

economics continues to be the orthodoxy that Ricardo had once been

a representative. The orthodox system has been around so long now

that many people are of the opinion that rather than a contingent

theoretical scheme, the theory _is_ economic reality itself. Most

economists are very narrowly trained, and not themselves inclined to

look outside their specialty. So, they are almost completely unaware

that Physics was for two centuries in thrall to Newtonian's system with

little or no expectation that anything new remained to be discovered.

Most economists today are of the opinion that all there is to be known

about economic behavior has been known for quite some time. There

a very few heterodox economists who for one reason or another do not

find orthodox economics and its faulty conception of human behavior

plausible. But, almost all that this heterodox contingent has been able

to do for the past century has been to criticize the orthodox position.

The one significant exception to this was provoked by the economic

crash of 1929, and the following depression that lasted well into the

boom created by military orders for World War Two. The exception,

to the dominance of orthodox economic theory was created by Keynes

as a theoretical explanation of how the crash and the great depression

were possible in a market system that was thought to be self-adjusting.

But, Keynes' work was an exception that has very few even slightly

comparable competitors on the heterodox side of academic economics.

Still the understanding of the macro-economic properties of the economic

system has provided enough guidance to government policy so that

the crashes, the panics and depressions of the pre-Keynesian era have

not been repeated-- not at least in the first world that is in control of

worldwide economic conditions through trade and banking policy.

For the most part the heterodox economists , while they have a

modest familiarity with mathematics, have little acquaintanceship

with the sciences. Not having had more than a course or two in biology,

physics or chemistry, they tend to confuse science with technology, and

then to conflate technology with the world of large corporations or the

military. These are not, some blindspots aside, unsophisticated people.

However, for the most part they are trapped by an intellectual mistake

in which they perceive orthodox economic theory which makes

extensive use of mathematics as representative of science. Viewed

from a distance this is an extremely elementary mistake. But, these

people do not have the advantage of a perspective from which they

might recognize that the sham use of mathematics by orthodox

economic theorists has nothing to do with the use of mathematics in

the genuine sciences. So, there has been a stable configuration in

economics for more than a century between an orthodoxy that has the

support of some powerful sectors of the society, and a heterodoxy that

has been unable by criticism to defeat the dominant orthodoxy, and

has been unable to generate a more plausible conception of the

economic process. One of the most important explanation for the

failure of the heterodox economists failure to generate a more

convincing conception of the economy has been the lack of an

adequate model of human behavior.

Control theory in my opinion supplies the conception that heterodox

economic theorists have needed to construct an alternative-- a

theoretical alternative to economic orthodoxy. And, there is some

evidence that control theory applications in economics can in a

sense pay its way by providing explanations of well know economic

phenomena-- that can not otherwise be satisfactorily explained.

Reports I get indicate that the control theory analysis of the Giffen

paradox is received well in classrooms. And, I hear from time to

time that other applications of control theory are being used. But,

there is also a great deal of resistance-- mainly, as I understand it,

because of a very considerable anti-science animus on the part of

people who are politically very left of center.

What has happen during the last quarter century has been that the

Keynesian system has become a sort of cloak for people who other

wise would have become Marxists. Whether or not they are still

Marxists may be open to question, but when they spell "capital" as

"kapital" I at least am rather confident as to what sort of convictions

provide direction for their efforts. That and the talk by students who

have not yet learned a bit of discretion.

Consider the effect in this context of an effort to introduce a new

conception of human behavior that is genuinely based upon

science. The conception is implemented through the use of

computers. Now combine this with a side issue that T.C. Powers

completely mistaken conceptions regarding Keynes have been

displayed on the CSGnet under the caption of "The best of the

webb." I could go on to list in detail the attack by Bill Powers and

Rick. Rick at one point claimed that none of the economists

understood the notion of a macro-economy. And, this followed

Bill Powers' dad's claim that Keynes treated the economy like a

very large family rather as a macro phenomena. Bill Powers

grumbles from time to time about supposed shady dealings that

Keynes is imagined to have pulled. It is all the most absurd

paranoid nonsense. Sometimes it has comic results-- as when

Rick attempted to copy Bill Powers' dad's Leakages thesis, and

speculated about using control theory to bring what is an

accounting identity into equation. Controlling an identity so that

it comes into equation is I would admit a very sophisticated use

of a control loop. I've never I will admit made such an innovative

use of a control loop. But, then Bill Powers inquiry that ended in

his discovery that rather than Y = C + S, in reality it was

entirely obvious that Y = C + S + I ,

And, going to Mars? Since it isn't going to cost anything, why not

take a busload? Maybe we could send all those 100 percent

natives from Honolulu, so they wouldn't need, for the time being,

to convert old refrigerators into weapons of discriminating

destruction. Maybe this would be the solution to the plot problem

that I have been having with my "Running Naked in the Forest"

fable.

And, how is the good profesor Bruun these days?

But, I really ought to keep in mind that Bill Powers might actually

pull of his test bed effort. The twist in the plot, however, would be

that to make it work he would have to discard every last bit of

his dad's leakages scheme.

Bill Williams

From Ray Bennett 2004.5.18 2030 CST Aust

Sorry Bill. My comments were general and not specifically aimed at you. Lots
of people fit the category. Here I am defending myself when it would be
better for me to leave or contribute to PCT.

From[Bill Williams 18 May 2004 11:50 AM CST]

From Ray Bennett 2004.5.18 2030 CST Aust

Sorry Bill. My comments were general and not specifically aimed at you.

Lots

of people fit the category. Here I am defending myself when it would be
better for me to leave or contribute to PCT.

OK. My mistake.

This isn't a valid excuse, but it may be something of an explaination,
that when conflict on the CSGnet has errupted, many people have placed the
blame on me-- when there were two parties (myself being one of them) engaged
in an offense exchange. I think I have some responsiblity for the recent
character of disputes, but not sole responsiblity.

For my own part I would rather that you choose to contribute to the
discussions on the CSGnet rather than to leave.

I would rather that a number of people would have choosen to continue their
participation on the CSGnet rather than leave. The pathological character of
discussion that has often emerged on the CSGnet has done a great deal of
harm. A lot of the damage was done while I was not activively involved with
CSG, or the CSGnet. A lot of the damage, in my view, was done because
people were disposed so that things said to them, or about them caused them
a great deal of pain. Why this should be so, is something of a mystery to
me.
It is easy enough to adopt the view that one shouldn't take "taking trash"
so seriously. And, at least in Bill Powers case, if you know him, it is
clear he often says things he later wishes he hadn't, and he often says
things that he knows aren't true.

Bill Williams

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1020)]

Bill Williams (17 May 2004 6:00 PM CST) --

The "giant steeps in the wrong direction" posting seems to have slipped
beyond easy reach.

I thought it was an excellent critique. Rick wouldn't listen to me. But,
then Rick wouldn't really listen to you either.

I listen to everyone who comments on my work. I just don't do anything based
on what I hear from you because I never hear any "actionable" information.
For example, I listened to what you said after my talk at the Boston
meeting. What I heard you say was that economics is a serious disciple and
that I should, therefore, take it seriously. I have no idea how to
incorporate such a suggestion into my modeling. You may have made some other
suggestions but it seemed to me that you never explained how they related to
the model I presented at the meeting.

Bill Powers' criticisms of my model were specific and actionable. The main
criticism was that the model controlled GNP, rather than the aspects of GNP
that people most likely control: Q (goods and services) and PQ (the cost of
producing/consuming those goods and services). My model controlled GNP
because that is the variable flowing around the "circular flow" in TCP's
model and my aim was to develop a "working" implementation of that model.
Nevertheless, I understand Bill Powers' criticism, I agree with it and I
know how to approach changing the model to make it control these variables.
And I will incorporate his suggestions into the next iteration of H.
economicus.

I will continue to listen to what you say regarding my work in economics
because there is always the chance that you will make a useful suggestion
for developing the H. economicus model. But general criticisms of the model
(saying, for example, that it's a giant leap in the wrong direction) don't
really help since they don't tell me, for example, what to do with the model
that would develop it in the right direction. I would welcome -- and, as
you say, "listen to" (i.e., heed) -- specific suggestions regarding the
development of my macro model of the economy based on perceptual control
theory to the extent that I can see how these suggestions relate to specific
variables and relationships between variables in the model.

Regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

From[Bill Williams 19 May 2004 1:00 PM CST]

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1020)]

I listen to everyone who comments on my work.

Rick, this simple is not true. I was there at Boston, you were not listening
then.

I just don't do anything based on what I hear from you because I never

hear any "actionable" information.

Again this is not true. Or, maybe it is that you really "don't hear" any
actionable information, which is an entirely different thing than my not
telling you any thing that is actionable.

For example, I listened to what you said after my talk at > the Boston

meeting.

Rick, your seem to be forgetting that we talked before you gave the
presentation. You weren't inclined at that point to listen specific
criticisms.

What I heard you say was that economics is a serious >disciple and that I

should, therefore, take it seriously.

I continue to think that this would be an excellent idea. Do you remember
recently that you expressed the opinion that none of the conventional
economists had understood the importance of their being a Maco aspect to the
economy? Even Bill Powers felt complelled to disassociate himself from this
sort of claim.

I have no idea how to incorporate such a suggestion >into my modeling.

Ok. You've made statements from time to time about the econmics profession.
These statement express an obvious lack of acquaintainceship with what
happened in regards to economic theory during the 20th century. One way of
checking, or controlling these obvious howlers that you come up with would
be to actually become acquainted with what is going on. You might for
instance read Roy Harrod's biography of Keynes. Bill Powers might have
saved himself from saying some really absurd things if he had taken the
trouble to find out who Keynes was, and what has been going on in economics,
rather than taking his dad's word for it. The idea that you and Bill Powers
have kicked around-- the Y = C + I + S wouldn't have gotten off the
ground, if you the most elementry comprehension of how the aggreegate income
accounts are defined.

You may have made some other
suggestions but it seemed to me that you never explained how they related

to

the model I presented at the meeting.

There really isn't any point in your demanding of me that I provide you with
a private tutorial regarding elementary economic concepts.

Bill Powers' criticisms of my model were specific and actionable. The main
criticism was that the model controlled GNP, rather than the aspects of

GNP

that people most likely control: Q (goods and services) and PQ (the cost

of

producing/consuming those goods and services). My model controlled GNP
because that is the variable flowing around the "circular flow" in TCP's
model and my aim was to develop a "working" >implementation of that model.

The problem with TCP's stuff as I have repeated endlessly is that it is an
expression of the underconsumptionist doctrine. We've been through this
before-- you don't pay attention.

Nevertheless, I understand Bill Powers' criticism, I agree with it

That isn't what you said at the time.

and I
know how to approach changing the model to make it >control these

variables. And I will incorporate his suggestions into the next iteration of
H.

economicus.

I will continue

No, Rick this is a falsehood. You, have never in the past listened. And, to
my surprize you didn't listen to Bill Powers-- check the CSGnet postings.

because there is always the chance that you will make > a useful

suggestion

Right,

for developing the H. economicus model. But general criticisms of the

model

(saying, for example, that it's a giant leap in the wrong direction) don't
really help

You seem to forget that it was Bill Powers who said this. However, Powers'
saying this was accompanied by specific criticisms, which as far as I know
you have not yet recognized.

since they don't tell me, for example, what to do with the model

that would develop it in the right direction.

Rick, there is no evidence that I can see that you are willing to make the
effort required to do economic modeling. A first step would be for you to
learn enough about the how the aggreegate income statistics are compliled.

I would welcome -- and, as

you say, "listen to" (i.e., heed) -- specific suggestions regarding the
development of my macro model of the economy based on perceptual control
theory to the extent that I can see how these suggestions relate to

specific

variables and relationships between variables in the model

Bill Powers did this. You didn't listen, or at least didn't appear to
understand his criticisms.

At one point you _said_ that you were going to read Bruun's stuff. Why
don't we try this as a test. Read Bruun's dissertation. When you get to
page 87 see if a light goes on.

There really isn't any point to a discussion of what is wrong with TCP's,
Bill Powers' talk, or your efforts to model the economy if you don't
understand the concept of an aggregate economy. This stuff all got more or
less sorted out by Keynes. Bruun's dissertation provides a clear an
exposition of the meaning of the aggregate economy as I have seen. Ironic
that Bill hit on Bruun's work when he got fed up with me.

Or, I might suggest you and Bill Powers and Professor Bruun might sort this
problem out.

Now there is as specific a suggestion as I can come up with. Get, the good
professor to explain it to you.

Bill Williams

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1445)]

Bill Williams (19 May 2004 1:00 PM CST) --

Rick, your seem to be forgetting that we talked before you gave the
presentation. You weren't inclined at that point to listen specific
criticisms.

I was listening to your criticisms. They had something to do with an
equality that you thought was very important. It seemed to me that it was
irrelevant to what I was doing with the model. But maybe I was wrong. Feel
free to present your criticism again on the net and I promise that I will
read it and give you my comments on it. Who knows, maybe I'll see its
relevance this time.

Do you remember
recently that you expressed the opinion that none of the conventional
economists had understood the importance of their being a Maco aspect to the
economy?

No. I may have expressed the opinion that economists don't know how to deal
with the closed loop nature of the economy at the macro level. But I know
that economists understand the importance of there being a macro level to
the economy. There are certainly many books on macro economics. What I think
is that these economists don't properly deal with the closed loop nature of
the economy at the macro level. I think this because, like all other
behavioral scientists, they never talk about possible _controlled
variables_.

I have no idea how to incorporate such a suggestion into my modeling.

Ok. You've made statements from time to time about the econmics profession.
These statement express an obvious lack of acquaintainceship with what
happened in regards to economic theory during the 20th century. One way of
checking, or controlling these obvious howlers that you come up with would
be to actually become acquainted with what is going on. You might for
instance read Roy Harrod's biography of Keynes. Bill Powers might have
saved himself from saying some really absurd things if he had taken the
trouble to find out who Keynes was, and what has been going on in economics,
rather than taking his dad's word for it. The idea that you and Bill Powers
have kicked around-- the Y = C + I + S wouldn't have gotten off the
ground, if you the most elementry comprehension of how the aggreegate income
accounts are defined.

This still tells me absolutely nothing about how you think I should change
my model of the economy in order to improve it.

There really isn't any point in your demanding of me that I provide you with
a private tutorial regarding elementary economic concepts.

I'm not demanding anything from you. I do think it would be nice if you
could explain what you think is wrong with my model if you think there is
something wrong. A flow diagram of the model is on p. 166 of _More Mind
Readings_. I also sent the spreadsheet implementation of the model to you
some time ago. I think you can glean the basics of the model from the
diagram and you can see how it actually works (dynamically) using the
spreadsheet. Bill Powers made specific criticisms/suggestions based on my
description of the model in the paper. Some of his criticisms/suggestions
were actually incorrect (he thought that my finding of a lack of effect of
leakage on growth rate was a result of the fact that I had a constant
intrinsic growth rate built into the model -- in other words, that I was
building my conclusions in as an assumption -- which in fact is not what I
did; indeed, my model shows that that is what TCP did with his equations
that show an effect of leakage on growth rate) but some of his criticisms
are correct and will be the basis of a revised model. If you have specific
criticisms regarding the model I would definitely like to hear them.

The problem with TCP's stuff as I have repeated endlessly is that it is an
expression of the underconsumptionist doctrine. We've been through this
before-- you don't pay attention.

I presume that the "underconsumptionist doctrine" says that the aggregate
consumer receives more in payment for what it produces that what it uses to
consume what is produced? H. economicus model is not based on this doctrine.
The model just shows what _would_ happen (assuming that the functional
organization of the economy is as described in the model) if the aggregate
producer/consumer did not return all it was paid for what it produced. If
you run the model with leakage set to zero then it is not an "expression of
the underconsumptionist doctrine".

There really isn't any point to a discussion of what is wrong with TCP's,
Bill Powers' talk, or your efforts to model the economy if you don't
understand the concept of an aggregate economy.

I agree. My model (which is an implementation of TCP's model) deals with the
economy at the aggregate level. It assumes that, at any instant, aggregate
GNP is both payment for what is produced and income that is used to pay for
what is consumed. This view is based on the idea that, at the individual
level, production, payment and consumption occur sequentially in time. But
at the aggregate level, production, payment and consumption are all
occurring simultaneously in a closed loop relationship. Some individuals are
producing while some are getting paid while others are consuming. At the
aggregate level, production (the output of the control loop) occurs while
payment (output of aggregate producer/input to aggregate consumer) occurs
while consumption (input to aggregate producer/consumer) occurs. The loops
in my H. economicus model implement this view of the behavior of aggregate
economic variables. If you think there is something wrong with this view of
the aggregate economy (and I think it's certainly a possibility that there
is something wrong with it) then it would be helpful if you could explain
what the problem is and, even better, explain the proper way to implement a
model of the aggregate economy.

Regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

From[Bill Williams 19 May 2004 7:20 PM CST]

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1445)]

> Bill Williams (19 May 2004 1:00 PM CST) --

> Rick, your seem to be forgetting that we talked before you gave the
> presentation. You weren't inclined at that point to listen specific
> criticisms.

I was listening to your criticisms. They had something to do with an
equality that you thought was very important.

Well, Yes. If you are going to use equations then there is a choice. You
can abid by the equals sign or you can ignore that an equals sign must be
used to mean the that the two sides of the equation are equal. As I
remember it you were proceeding so that one side of the equation was not
equal to the other side, then If my memory is correct you were at one point
using a control loop to bring the two sides into equation.

It seemed to me that it was

irrelevant to what I was doing with the model.

I know, that was what you said then too. If you don't believe it is
important that the two sides of an equation are equal to each other, and you
are by no means alone in this, then we approach the world from such entirely
different methodological assumptions that there really isn't any basis for
communication-- other than that we are proceeding upon so entirely different
assumptions that what we are doing is not mutually intelligible.

You were treating identities as if they were contingent, and you do this so
frequently-- at least when you attempt to do economic modeling that it
suggests to me that you have never bothered to consider how the terms that
you are flinging about are defined.

But maybe I was wrong.

As far as I am concerned there really isn't any _maybe_. You have been
arguing as if data gather according to one set of definitions could be used
to refute the definitions by which the data had been collected. It is as if
you were making measurements with a voltage meter and believed that you had
refuted ohms law.

Feel free to present your criticism again on the net
and I promise that I will read it and give you my
comments on it.

After all that we have been through, I don't trust you. But, I will
re-present one critcisism. (See below.)

Who knows, maybe I'll see its relevance this time.

Who, knows, there is always the possiblity.

> Do you remember
> recently that you expressed the opinion that none of the conventional
> economists had understood the importance of their being a Maco aspect to

the

> economy?

No. I may have expressed the opinion that economists don't know how to

deal

with the closed loop nature of the economy at the macro level. But I know
that economists understand the importance of there being a macro level to
the economy. There are certainly many books on macro economics. What I

think

is that these economists don't properly deal with the closed loop nature

of

the economy at the macro level.

I think this because, like all other

behavioral scientists, they never talk about possible _controlled
variables_.

This seems to me to be a repetition of my observation in regard to what I
remember your saying about the economicists. You say "like all other
behavioral scientists, they never talk about possible _controled
variables_." However, I had a professor who discussed at length the
question of the conrol of behavior in what he called difficult
circumstances. He was for this reason a critic of behaviorism. It was due
to his influence that I became interested in the Giffen paradox.

>> I have no idea how to incorporate such a suggestion into my modeling.
>

Like I said, I try repeating one sugggestion.

> Ok. You've made statements from time to time about the econmics

profession.

> These statement express an obvious lack of acquaintainceship with what
> happened in regards to economic theory during the 20th century. One way

of

> checking, or controlling these obvious howlers that you come up with

would

> be to actually become acquainted with what is going on. You might for
> instance read Roy Harrod's biography of Keynes. Bill Powers might have
> saved himself from saying some really absurd things if he had taken the
> trouble to find out who Keynes was, and what has been going on in

economics,

> rather than taking his dad's word for it. The idea that you and Bill

Powers

> have kicked around-- the Y = C + I + S wouldn't have gotten off the
> ground, if you the most elementry comprehension of how the aggreegate

income

> accounts are defined.

This still tells me absolutely nothing about how you think I should change
my model of the economy in order to improve it.

I am sorry that you are in such a rush to do economic modeling that my
suggestion that you might take the time to learn the meaning of the terms
use are using.

> There really isn't any point in your demanding of me that I provide you

with

> a private tutorial regarding elementary economic concepts.

I'm not demanding anything from you. I do think it would be nice if you
could explain what you think is wrong with my model if you think there is
something wrong. A flow diagram of the model is on p. 166 of _More Mind
Readings_. I also sent the spreadsheet implementation of the model to you
some time ago. I think you can glean the basics of the model from the
diagram and you can see how it actually works (dynamically) using the
spreadsheet. Bill Powers made specific criticisms/suggestions based on my
description of the model in the paper. Some of his criticisms/suggestions
were actually incorrect (he thought that my finding of a lack of effect of
leakage on growth rate was a result of the fact that I had a constant
intrinsic growth rate built into the model -- in other words, that I was
building my conclusions in as an assumption -- which in fact is not what I
did; indeed, my model shows that that is what TCP did with his equations
that show an effect of leakage on growth rate) but some of his criticisms
are correct and will be the basis of a revised model. If you have specific
criticisms regarding the model I would definitely like to hear them.

> The problem with TCP's stuff as I have repeated endlessly is that it is

an

> expression of the underconsumptionist doctrine. We've been through this
> before-- you don't pay attention.

I presume that the "underconsumptionist doctrine" says that the aggregate
consumer receives more in payment for what it produces that what it uses

to

consume what is produced? H. economicus model is not based on this

doctrine.

The model just shows what _would_ happen (assuming that the functional
organization of the economy is as described in the model) if the aggregate
producer/consumer did not return all it was paid for what it produced. If
you run the model with leakage set to zero then it is not an "expression

of

the underconsumptionist doctrine".

OK. Here is a suspecific criticism. There is no possiblity of a leakage of
the sort that Bill Powers' dad supposed was happening in the macro, or
aggreegate economy. In the macro context income equals expenditure. this
must have been what I noticed in you paper-- that the explaination depended
upon a difference between sales and purchases or income and expenditure.

If you start from first principles and a definition of a transaction
between two parties, then it should be apparent that sales are equal to
purchases. Add up sales and add up purchases and you get total sales equal
to total purchases. This rules out explalinations of aggreegate econmic
phenomena by the process that Bill Powers' dad thought was opperative.

Now, if you don't think that it is important to maintain the equality
between two sides of an equation, it is possible, certainly enough people do
it, to think that somehow purchasing power is somehow leaking away.

All this, however, got straightened out nearly seventy years ago-- by
Keynes.

> There really isn't any point to a discussion of what is wrong with

TCP's,

> Bill Powers' talk, or your efforts to model the economy if you don't
> understand the concept of an aggregate economy.

I agree. My model (which is an implementation of TCP's model) deals with

the

economy at the aggregate level.

TCP's model may attempt to do so but the use of the concept of leakage
demonstrates that Bill Powers' dad never understood the process.

It assumes that, at any instant, aggregate

GNP is both payment for what is produced and income that is used to pay

for

what is consumed. This view is based on the idea that, at the individual
level, production, payment and consumption occur sequentially in time.

Actually this sequential business is where TCP, Bill Powers and you all get
into trouble.

But

at the aggregate level, production, payment and consumption are all
occurring simultaneously in a closed loop relationship. Some individuals

are

producing while some are getting paid while others are consuming. At the
aggregate level, production (the output of the control loop) occurs while
payment (output of aggregate producer/input to aggregate consumer) occurs
while consumption (input to aggregate producer/consumer) occurs. The loops
in my H. economicus model implement this view of the behavior of aggregate
economic variables. If you think there is something wrong with this view

of

the aggregate economy (and I think it's certainly a possibility that there
is something wrong with it) then it would be helpful if you could explain
what the problem is and, even better, explain the proper way to implement

a

model of the aggregate economy.

Why don't you consider my explaination why leakages are always zero ?
And, why it is important that if you are going to use an equation that the
two sides be treated as being equal.

Actually, I think Bill Powers really did understand how the investment and
savings accounts work.

But, then he goes back to grumbling about Keynes.

Bill Williams

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.19.1708 MST)]

Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1020)--

The main criticism [by Bill P.] was that the model controlled GNP, rather
than the aspects of GNP that people most likely control: Q (goods and
services) and PQ (the cost of producing/consuming those goods and services).

It was also that growth rate of GNP was determined by making the reference
level for GNP increase continuously. In "More Mind Readings" on p. 167 you say

"In fact, most of the composite GNP controller's efforts (in terms of
production of Q') are aimed at keeping perceived GNP, P'Q', equal to an
ever increasing reference level."

Since P'Q' is a controlled variable, it will be made to follow the rise in
the reference level regardless of disturbances acting on it. The composite
controller will alter the output of goods and services to counteract the
effect of leakage on P'Q'(as shown in Fig. 2). It can do this because there
are no conditions placed on the GNP controller's output of Q', so whatever
happens to P', Q' can be adjusted to make up for it and keep the product
P'Q' the same. Variations in P will change the loop gain of the GNP control
system, but if it is high enough to begin with, this will not materially
alter P'Q'.

Notice that if the price decreases, the response of the GNP controller will
be to increase production of goods and services. There is no proof that
this would be possible, and in fact, with less producer income due to the
price drop, it would not be possible to pay for increased production -- the
prevailing wage would have to be reduced, too, so more workers could be
hired to provide the increased output. As in TCP's analysis, there is no
bookkeeping in this model, and without bookkeeping it's impossible to know
if the asserted actions could actually take place.

TCP obtained growth simply by asserting that productivity and population
grow exponentially, and that GNP grows as the product of these
exponentially-increasing numbers. He then added leakage as another
growth-determining factor, from which the rest of his thesis evolves. The
existence and effect of leakage did not come out of his analysis as logical
conclusions; they went into it as premises (he took leakage, which he said
was the difference between income and expenditures as given in the
Statistical Abstracts, as a fact). This is why, even as I tried to explain
his reasoning, I never considered leakage to have been satisfactorily
accounted for. However, I couldn't prove otherwise so I accepted it pro tem.

It may still prove to be important. The final conclusions remain to be
drawn. Your model, which is designed to resist any effects of leakage on
growth, naturally shows that leakage has little if any effect on growth.
You set it up that way, so this proves nothing about leakage. TCP also set
up his analysis so that leakage was important, but because he failed to
explain where the money comes from and where it goes -- it just appears as
needed -- he did not _demonstrate_ that leakage is important. He simply
_made_ it important by the way he set up his equations.

I think we can see ahead to a quite different story. When the origins and
fates of money are taken into consideration, leakage becomes a rather minor
effect -- money is destroyed every time a debtor makes a payment on a loan,
which is a far larger amount every year than the paltry 7% average leakage
that TCP thought he had discovered. We're talking about a difference
between two very large numbers, the rate at which new loans are created
(creation of new money) and the rate at which old ones are repaid
(destruction of money). And we mustn't forget about defaults on loans,
which leave money in circulation that the lender can't get back.
Furthermore, interest on loans is a mysterious quantity. Almost by
definition, banks that charge interest on loans expect to get back all the
money created by making the loan -- and a little more. That "little more"
has to come from somewhere, but in fact banks don't create enough money to
cover the interest! So where do the interest payments come from?

It's perfectly possible that the answers to all these questions lie in
writings by economists, at least some economists. But they might also be
found by carefully constructing a model that is as complete as possible
(within reason) and seeing how it behaves. The latter would be preferable,
in that it doesn't depend on anyone's reputation or beliefs, and can be
recreated from first principles. With that kind of model, its correctness
doesn't depend on who thought it up.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2004.05.19.2034 MST)]

Bill Williams 19 May 2004 7:20 PM CST--

OK. Here is a suspecific criticism. There is no possiblity of a leakage of
the sort that Bill Powers' dad supposed was happening in the macro, or
aggreegate economy. In the macro context income equals expenditure. this
must have been what I noticed in you paper-- that the explaination depended
upon a difference between sales and purchases or income and expenditure.

I think this is too restricted a view of transactions. There may be no
difference between sales and purchases (a sale and purchase is a single
transaction), and there may be no difference between payment for productive
labor and reception of wage income for work done, which is another kind of
transaction, but these two kinds of transaction are not the same. A
consumer can hold part of his wages and spend the rest on consumer goods,
and a producer can hold part of his income and spend the rest on labor and
capital goods. A producer can pay workers to produce goods which are held
in inventory and not sold. A consumer can buy goods which are held and not
used up. If cash reserves and inventories are either increasing or
decreasing, the wage/cost end of the process need not be numerically equal
to the sales/purchase end. There is equality only if the system is in a
steady state -- and if loans are not being repaid faster than they are
being created. The problem with the static macro view you express is that
there is no way for the economy either to grow or to shrink.

As to the savings/investment problem, this turned out to be merely a matter
of definition. Keynes included unspent cash in what he called capital
equipment, so of course there could be no difference between investment as
represented in the value of capital equipment, and investment which goes
into savings -- that is, into capital equipment. The equality of savings
and investment follows by definition.

However, if we treat "unspent income," separately from "capital goods other
than money," the model can work without preventing anyone from adding up
these two quantities. Perhaps when computing wealth, the distinction is not
necessary, but when modeling the system, it is necessary. We have to keep
track of the money separately from the physical goods and machinery that
move in the other direction from money and have properties and importance
beyond their prices. The accountant measures everything in dollars, but
that does not work in a model. Your analysis of the Giffen effect depends
completely on measures of value that are not monetary -- calories, for
example..

Econ004 will, before too much longer, evolve in two ways: money now simply
set aside for capital goods will start to be spent with corresponding
effects on productivity; in that same connection, capital goods will
depreciate, faster if used for production but still at some rate even when
not used. And at least one bank will appear which can create money by
lending it out, and which charges interest for that money.

I say that econ004 is on the back burner while I try to get some old Turbo
Pascal programs working in Delphi before I can't even compile them any
more, but that's not the whole story. I'm really waiting for some ideas to
show up. I don't quite see how to get a motivation for expansion into the
model, and I need to consider your proposal that the human control systems
are working in a state of chronic large error (in the present model errors
remain small). In part that latter problem is mainly a matter of choosing
the values of parameters -- the structure of the model won't change, though
its behavior might. The biggest problem is simply getting the basic
structure right so the model has the same components the real system has.

I've put in a request for the necessary ideas, but right now all I'm
getting is hold music.

Best,

Bill P.

···

If you start from first principles and a definition of a transaction
between two parties, then it should be apparent that sales are equal to
purchases. Add up sales and add up purchases and you get total sales equal
to total purchases. This rules out explalinations of aggreegate econmic
phenomena by the process that Bill Powers' dad thought was opperative.

Now, if you don't think that it is important to maintain the equality
between two sides of an equation, it is possible, certainly enough people do
it, to think that somehow purchasing power is somehow leaking away.

All this, however, got straightened out nearly seventy years ago-- by
Keynes.

>
> > There really isn't any point to a discussion of what is wrong with
TCP's,
> > Bill Powers' talk, or your efforts to model the economy if you don't
> > understand the concept of an aggregate economy.
>
> I agree. My model (which is an implementation of TCP's model) deals with
the
> economy at the aggregate level.

TCP's model may attempt to do so but the use of the concept of leakage
demonstrates that Bill Powers' dad never understood the process.

It assumes that, at any instant, aggregate
> GNP is both payment for what is produced and income that is used to pay
for
> what is consumed. This view is based on the idea that, at the individual
> level, production, payment and consumption occur sequentially in time.

Actually this sequential business is where TCP, Bill Powers and you all get
into trouble.

But
> at the aggregate level, production, payment and consumption are all
> occurring simultaneously in a closed loop relationship. Some individuals
are
> producing while some are getting paid while others are consuming. At the
> aggregate level, production (the output of the control loop) occurs while
> payment (output of aggregate producer/input to aggregate consumer) occurs
> while consumption (input to aggregate producer/consumer) occurs. The loops
> in my H. economicus model implement this view of the behavior of aggregate
> economic variables. If you think there is something wrong with this view
of
> the aggregate economy (and I think it's certainly a possibility that there
> is something wrong with it) then it would be helpful if you could explain
> what the problem is and, even better, explain the proper way to implement
a
> model of the aggregate economy.

Why don't you consider my explaination why leakages are always zero ?
And, why it is important that if you are going to use an equation that the
two sides be treated as being equal.

Actually, I think Bill Powers really did understand how the investment and
savings accounts work.

But, then he goes back to grumbling about Keynes.

Bill Williams

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.2100)]

Bill Williams (19 May 2004 7:20 PM CST)

Me:

I think this because, like all other
behavioral scientists, they never talk about possible _controlled
variables_.

You say "like all other
behavioral scientists, they never talk about possible _controled
variables_." However, I had a professor who discussed at length the
question of the conrol of behavior in what he called difficult
circumstances. He was for this reason a critic of behaviorism.

Controlled variables are controlled _by_ behavior (actions). Your
professor was not talking about controlled variables as we understand
them in PCT. I believe that you will not be able to find an economist
who talks about _controlled variables_. But if you do, let me know.

OK. Here is a suspecific criticism. There is no possiblity of a
leakage of
the sort that Bill Powers' dad supposed was happening in the macro, or
aggreegate economy. In the macro context income equals expenditure.

If that's true then all it means is that there is no leakage in the
model. To make the model consistent with reality all that is needed is
to set the leakage term to zero. The model simply says that leakage
_could be_ non-zero. But I don't really see why you say there is no
possibility of leakage. If everyone stuffed a portion of their income
into a mattress and left it there, this money would not be used for
expenditure. So aggregate income would be greater than aggregate
expenditure. Thus may not happen in reality but it is a _possibility_.

this
must have been what I noticed in you paper-- that the explaination
depended
upon a difference between sales and purchases or income and
expenditure.

Sales and purchases must indeed match. If $x of goods and services is
sold then $x was used to purchase it. I think you wrote this out as S
= P, where S is the amount sold (in $) and P is the amount spent to
purchase what was sold (also in $). These is no question that S = P and
it does so in my model. If PQ goods and services are sold then PQ
dollars goes from the purchaser to the seller.

The situation is not the same with income and expenditure. Aggregate
income can be more or less than aggregate expenditure because the
aggregate consumer need not expend all its income. The consumer can put
some income in a mattress, for example.

Why don't you consider my explaination why leakages are always zero ?

I have considered it and rejected it for the reasons given above and
below. Here is your explanation of why leakages are always zero:

If you start from first principles and a definition of a transaction
between two parties, then it should be apparent that sales are equal to
purchases. Add up sales and add up purchases and you get total sales
equal
to total purchases. This rules out explalinations of aggreegate
econmic
phenomena by the process that Bill Powers' dad thought was opperative.

First, you don't even have to do an aggregate analysis to see that
sales must equal purchases. A sale _is_ a purchase from the
perspective of the buyer. A purchase _is_ a sale from the perspective
of the seller. If I sell something for S dollars, then the purchaser
has spent P dollars on it and S = P. The goods and services available
for purchase in any time interval, GNP, have not yet been sold. The
income consumers have received in the same time period to make these
purchases, I, has not yet been used for purchasing.

Assume that aggregate income, I, equals the dollar value of the goods
and services available for purchase, GNP. So I = GNP. It is perfectly
possible to use less that all of I to purchase the goods and services
that are for sale. So the I that is used to purchase GNP can be less
than GNP, in which case all of GNP is not purchased. The goods and
services that are not purchased are called inventory. For the goods and
services that are purchased, S = P holds, with S = I - k (k being
unspent income) and P being the portion of GNP that is purchased, so P
= S = I - k. The constant k is, of course, leakage. It's certainly
possible for k to be 0, but it is certainly not necessary.

Regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Rick Marken (2004.05.19.2130)]

Bill Powers (2004.05.19.1708 MST)--

Rick Marken (2004.05.19.1020)--

The main criticism [by Bill P.] was that the model controlled GNP,
rather
than the aspects of GNP that people most likely control: Q (goods and
services) and PQ (the cost of producing/consuming those goods and
services).

It was also that growth rate of GNP was determined by making the
reference
level for GNP increase continuously.

This was how I included TCP's intrinsic growth rate. It's the growth
rate that results from population growth. An increase in population
corresponds to an increase in the reference for goods and services.

Since P'Q' is a controlled variable, it will be made to follow the
rise in
the reference level regardless of disturbances acting on it. The
composite
controller will alter the output of goods and services to counteract
the
effect of leakage on P'Q'(as shown in Fig. 2). It can do this because
there
are no conditions placed on the GNP controller's output of Q', so
whatever
happens to P', Q' can be adjusted to make up for it and keep the
product
P'Q' the same. Variations in P will change the loop gain of the GNP
control
system, but if it is high enough to begin with, this will not
materially
alter P'Q'.

This is how TCP's model worked as well. He assumed that P would change
to make up for leakage. This was his autoinflation.

As in TCP's analysis, there is no
bookkeeping in this model, and without bookkeeping it's impossible to
know
if the asserted actions could actually take place.

I don't know what you mean by bookkeeping. The model certainly does
keep track of the total dollars and goods in the economy at any time.
Money does come into the economy as needed; so there is no bookkeeping
regarding the source of money. But all the other transactions are kept
straight. The dollar value of goods in inventory, for example, as well
as the amounts of money paid by the aggregate producer and the amount
available to the aggregate consumer for purchase of all goods and
services (currently produced as well as whatever is in inventory) are
certainly kept straight.

TCP obtained growth simply by asserting that productivity and
population
grow exponentially, and that GNP grows as the product of these
exponentially-increasing numbers. He then added leakage as another
growth-determining factor, from which the rest of his thesis evolves.

Yes. This should have been obvious from reading the book but the
modeling helped me understand that the effect of leakage on growth rate
was assumed rather than derived.

Your model, which is designed to resist any effects of leakage on
growth, naturally shows that leakage has little if any effect on
growth.

Actually, _changes_ in leakage affect the growth rate produced by the
model. I think I could find a time varying set of values for leakage
that could predict observed time changes in growth with pretty good
accuracy. That might be an interesting exercise. Once the leakage
variations that gave the best fit to the growth variations were found,
you could check to see how well the variations in other variables that
are affected by leakage (inventory and inflation, for example) fit the
actual data as well. That's the way I would like to test the model
eventually.

Best regards

Rick

Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bill Powers 92004.05.20.0711 MST)]

Rick Marken (2004.05.19.2130) --

This was how I included TCP's intrinsic growth rate. It's the growth
rate that results from population growth. An increase in population
corresponds to an increase in the reference for goods and services.

There was also an intrinsic growth rate in productivity, so even with a
constant population, the economy would grow.

The composite controller will alter the output of goods and services to
counteract the effect of leakage on P'Q'(as shown in Fig. 2). It can do
this because there are no conditions placed on the GNP controller's
output of Q', so whatever happens to P', Q' can be adjusted to make up
for it and keep the
product P'Q' the same.

This is how TCP's model worked as well. He assumed that P would change

to make up for leakage. This was his autoinflation.

Are you sure that's the same? TCP said that if there is leakage, the price
P will increase; your model of the GNP controller says that if there is
leakage, the quantity of goods Q will increase. Price can be freely
manipulated, but production of goods costs money and can't simply be
increased without increasing costs. Since your model doesn't keep track of
costs it allows quantity of production to be raised as freely as prices,
but is that realistic? (I'm not saying that prices can be changed freely in
the long run).

I don't know what you mean by bookkeeping. The model certainly does
keep track of the total dollars and goods in the economy at any time.

But it doesn't contain any relationship saying that the quantity of goods
produced depends on the prevailing wage, the number of workers willing to
work at that wage, and the productivity of the workers. That is why the GNP
controller can simply raise production as an answer to leakage or to a
change in prices. There is nothing in the model that says increasing
production requires that additional wages be paid prior to the sale of the
new goods. Neither your model nor TCPs was complete in that respect. When
econ004 finally reaches the point of having a bank, this will be where
borrowing will be required. It will be interesting to see what the effect
will be of the requirement that loans be repaid with interest.

Money does come into the economy as needed; so there is no bookkeeping
regarding the source of money.

But that money has to be repaid -- it's not just printed and given away.
And the borrower must repay not only the principal, but a little more, the
interest. Where in your model, or in TCP's analysis, is the provision for
repaying the money that providentially shows up, not to mention the interest?

But all the other transactions are kept
straight. The dollar value of goods in inventory, for example, as well
as the amounts of money paid by the aggregate producer and the amount
available to the aggregate consumer for purchase of all goods and
services (currently produced as well as whatever is in inventory) are
certainly kept straight.

I don't know how your model handles this, but TCP's analysis simply added
whatever amount of money was lost by leakage, from an unnamed source. Since
this money didn't cost anyone anything, its effect should simply have been
to cancel the effect of leakage, restoring the circular flow to exactly the
level that would have existed if there had been no leakage. He asserted
that the producer raised the price to make up for leakage, thus causing
autoinflation, but he never explained why, if the leakage were replaced by
new money, there was any need to raise prices as well. That part of his
analysis involved some arm-waving. Either injecting new money or raising
prices could maintain income in the presence of leakage, but it is not
necessary that _both_ be done.

I think TCP's model was a bit ragged at this point, because of not dealing
squarely with the sources of money. He admitted as much -- he said he hoped
that future economists would recognize the deficiencies in his analysis and
help to correct them. Of course any suggested corrections were violently
rejected, but at least his principles were theoretically laudable. He liked
to use one of Bill Williams' favorite terms when presented with an idea
that contradicted his conclusions: "absurd."

TCP obtained growth simply by asserting that productivity and
population
grow exponentially, and that GNP grows as the product of these
exponentially-increasing numbers. He then added leakage as another
growth-determining factor, from which the rest of his thesis evolves.

Yes. This should have been obvious from reading the book but the
modeling helped me understand that the effect of leakage on growth rate
was assumed rather than derived.

As is the failure of leakage to affect growth rate in your model. Control
of GNP is assumed, not derived, and that is what keeps leakage from having
any serious effect on growth.

Your model, which is designed to resist any effects of leakage on
growth, naturally shows that leakage has little if any effect on
growth.

Actually, _changes_ in leakage affect the growth rate produced by the
model. I think I could find a time varying set of values for leakage
that could predict observed time changes in growth with pretty good
accuracy.

That's because of the slowing factor you put into the GNP controller. The
more you slow the action of the system, the greater will be the effect of
the rate of change of any disturbance (leakage or prices) on the controlled
variable, P'Q'. The steady-state effect of disturbances will be reduced by
a factor of (1 + G), G being the loop gain you choose for the controller.
If you want the steady-state effect of leakage to be small, you pick a high
gain for the GNP controller. I don't mean that's why you did it; if you
gave the GNP controller a high gain, it was probably to assure that the
actual P'Q' followed the rise in the reference level P'Q'r, faithfully. But
the same choice that assures that actual growth follows intended growth
also results in a small effect from leakage. Your assumption is that GNP
is under control.

But all this becomes moot when you ask about constraints on changes in Q',
the production of goods and services. The changes in Q' are not independent
of changes in P', because changes of P' affect income which determines how
much production can be paid for. It is simply not realistic to use Q' as an
independent means of counteracting changes in price or leakage, the way you
have done in your model.

My highest-level objection to your model is that I simply don't believe
that there is any GNP-controlling entity. I think that GNP is an emergent
quantity, a dependent variable influenced by the actions of many control
systems, very few of which have GNP as the reference level or the object of
control. I think growth arises as technology improves and population
increases, and as individuals cope with disturbances and take advantage of
new methods and ideas. But nobody controls it (though some have tried).

Best,

Bill P.