experimentation on what is real and what is not

Using John Maynard Smith’s application of game theory to evolution,Â

different strategies for coping with the natural world can be set against each other in simulations to see which approaches are fitter – in the sense of producing more offspring. […] we can study how “truthâ€? strategies, which see objective reality as it is, fare against “pay-offâ€? strategies, which see only survival value.Â

The objective truth I started seeing a decade ago, in simulations conducted together with my graduate students Justin Mark and Brian Marion at the University of California, Irvine, is that evolution ruthlessly selects against truth strategies and for pay-off strategies. An organism that sees objective reality is always less fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees fitness pay-offs. Seeing objective reality will make you extinct.

The means by which we interact with the environment and construct a universe of perceptions, they consider to be our space-time interface to whatever is really going on (creating space and time, inter alia). They say that theyÂ

are currently trying to solve the hard problem of consciousness by building a theory in which the underlying reality emerges from a vast network of interacting conscious agents and their experiences. Our space-time interface – together with shapes, colours and other sensory pproperties – is as a visualisation tool that some agents, like us, uuse to simplify and interact with this network.

Our hypothesis, of course, is probably wrong. But the point of science is to be precise, so we can find out precisely what is wrong with the idea. Our theory of interacting conscious agents fails if its predictions don’t square with well-tested results of classical physics, quantum theory, general relativity, evolution by natural selection and so on in our space-time interface.

And the argument turns on itself. We used the theory of evolution by natural selection to discover that what we perceive isn’t objective reality, but an interface with it. Now we realise that evolution itself may be just an interface projection of deeper dynamics stemming from a network of conscious agents. The goal ahead is to work out those dynamics in detail, and figure out how, precisely, they map onto our space-time interface. This will allow us to make empirical predictions testable by experiments within our subjective reality.

Science so far has focused its search on this immediate reality. What it has found can guide our theories and test our predictions as we try to look beyond it, to find the nature of objective reality. Can we do it? Just like I take out life insurance, I’m betting we can.

References to:

Mark, Justin T.; Brian B.Marion; Donald D.Hoffman. 2010. Natural selection and veridical perceptions. Journal of Theoretical Biology 266.4:504-515. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jtbi.2010.07.020

Above quotations are from a recent summary in NS available from my Dropbox folder:

···

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ymyammz5qjb3x0r/Real.Reality.pdf?dl=0

[Rick Marken 2019-08-02_17:24:41]

BN: Using John Maynard Smith’s application of game theory to evolution,Â

different strategies for coping with the natural world can be set against each other in simulations to see which approaches are fitter – in the sense of producing mmore offspring. […] we can study how “truthâ€? strategies, which see objective reality as it is, fare against “pay-offâ€? strategies, which see only survival value.Â

Â

RM: If humans evolved to see only in terms of “survival value” then how to do these researchers, who are presumably human, know what its like to see objective reality?Â

Â

BN: The means by which we interact with the environment and construct a universe of perceptions, they consider to be our space-time interface to whatever is really going on (creating space and time, inter alia).

RM: So our universe of perception isn’t what’s really going on? Â

BN: They say that theyÂ

are currently trying to solve the hard problem of consciousness by building a theory in which the underlying reality emerges from a vast network of interacting conscious agents and their experiences.

RM: I think they would be better off first trying to solve the “soft” problem of unconscious purposefulness (control) by determining the perceptual variables organisms actually control and how these variables relate to what physical science models tells us is the reality that is the basis of our perceptions.Â

Our hypothesis, of course, is probably wrong. But the point of science is to be precise, so we can find out precisely what is wrong with the idea. Our theory of interacting conscious agents fails if its predictions don’t square with well-tested results of classical physics, quantum theory, general relativity, evolution by natural selection and so on in our space-time interface.

RM: Well, they are right about that! But they should also square their results with the well established facts of the controlling done by living systems.Â

Â

Science so far has focused its search on this immediate reality. What it has found can guide our theories and test our predictions as we try to look beyond it, to find the nature of objective reality. Can we do it? Just like I take out life insurance, I’m betting we can.

RM: I have no idea what they are talking about. So I won’t take the bet, though it’s tempting!Â

BestÂ

Rick

···

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[From Bruce Nevin (20190803.08:45 ET]

Rick Marken 2019-08-02_17:24:41 –

RM: If humans evolved to see only in terms of “survival value” then how to do these researchers, who are presumably human, know what its like to see objective reality?Â

Their reference to a ‘truth strategy’ vs. a ‘survival strategy’ is not a claim that they “know what it’s like to see objective reality”.

RM: I have no idea what they are talking about.Â

Â

Those few quotes snipped from their context are not a summary. They’re part of an invitation to read the articles. I’d have done better to identify a certain recurring topic of discussion on CSGnet, and simply say (to those who are interested in that topic) that this appears to be relevant to it.

When we move to a modern discussion platform this sort of confusion will be avoidable.

···

/Bruce

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:38 PM Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[Rick Marken 2019-08-02_17:24:41]

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:01 AM Bruce Nevin csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

BN: Using John Maynard Smith’s application of game theory to evolution,Â

different strategies for coping with the natural world can be set against each other in simulations to see which approaches are fitter – in the sense of producing more offspring. […] we can study how “truthâ€? strategies, which see objective reality as it is, fare against “pay-offâ€? strategies, which see only survival value.Â

Â

RM: If humans evolved to see only in terms of “survival value” then how to do these researchers, who are presumably human, know what its like to see objective reality?Â

Â

BN: The means by which we interact with the environment and construct a universe of perceptions, they consider to be our space-time interface to whatever is really going on (creating space and time, inter alia).

RM: So our universe of perception isn’t what’s really going on? Â

BN: They say that theyÂ

are currently trying to solve the hard problem of consciousness by building a theory in which the underlying reality emerges from a vast network of interacting conscious agents and their experiences.

RM: I think they would be better off first trying to solve the “soft” problem of unconscious purposefulness (control) by determining the perceptual variables organisms actually control and how these variables relate to what physical science models tells us is the reality that is the basis of our perceptions.Â

Our hypothesis, of course, is probably wrong. But the point of science is to be precise, so we can find out precisely what is wrong with the idea. Our theory of interacting conscious agents fails if its predictions don’t square with well-tested results of classical physics, quantum theory, general relativity, evolution by natural selection and so on in our space-time interface.

RM: Well, they are right about that! But they should also square their results with the well established facts of the controlling done by living systems.Â

Â

Science so far has focused its search on this immediate reality. What it has found can guide our theories and test our predictions as we try to look beyond it, to find the nature of objective reality. Can we do it? Just like I take out life insurance, I’m betting we can.

RM: I have no idea what they are talking about. So I won’t take the bet, though it’s tempting!Â

BestÂ

Rick

References to:

Mark, Justin T.; Brian B.Marion; Donald D.Hoffman. 2010. Natural selection and veridical perceptions. Journal of Theoretical Biology 266.4:504-515. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jtbi.2010.07.020

Above quotations are from a recent summary in NS available from my Dropbox folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ymyammz5qjb3x0r/Real.Reality.pdf?dl=0


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery