[From Rupert Young (2017.06.16 15.45)]
There are various PCT texts on emotion, but seem to be limited to
the perception of emotion, as related to physiological
changes. I am interested in the expression of emotions,
such as shouting in pain, crying, smiling etc, but haven’t seen
any explanations of their purpose and how they fit into PCT.
Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
–
Regards,
Rupert
[Martin Taylor 2017.06.16.10.48]
[From Rupert Young (2017.06.16 15.45)]
There are various PCT texts on emotion, but seem to be limitedto the perception of emotion, as related to
physiological changes. I am interested in the expression
of emotions, such as shouting in pain, crying, smiling etc, but
haven’t seen any explanations of their purpose and how they fit
into PCT.
Good point.
Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
My first thought is that they are all aspects of communication. In
other words they are primarily used as disturbances to perceptions
someone else might be controlling, as a form of language. That kind
of language is used by many species, as is the accompanying body
language. We express sadness by a kind of postural drooping and
facial expression, for example, and joy by a kind of bouncing step,
upright posture, and smiles.
Why does a baby cry? There's presumably no individual personal
learning involved at first, but evolutionarily, mothers usually do
something to or with the baby to stop it crying, There are quite a
few conditions in which a baby may cry, and baby and mother can
learn together that baby cries differently for, say, being pricked
by a diaper pin and for being hungry. The mother is quite likely to
act to reduce the error in whichever perception baby is controlling
that differs from its reference value, and to learn which cry is
associated with which discomfort. Different cries become “words” of
a mother-baby language, a language not used by mother, but
understood by her. It is an early protocol that might be labelled
“Baby Mother Need”, where the cry type identifies the need.
Baby will quite probably cry when nobody is around to do anything
about it. We adults may shout in pain or cry and smile when nobody
is around. But I suspect that the action is nevertheless based on
communication, such as looking for solace or sharing joy, because
they work often enough when someone is around, and do not conflict
with other controlled perceptions when nobody is there (unless one
is a saboteur trying to avoid the notice of guards on a dark night).
Why, as Darwin noted, particular emotions are signified by the same
body language in all communities, and as he thought also by
different primate species, is another question. There presumably is
something genetically determined about that commonality.
The primary reason they have not been much considered in PCT is
presumably the emphasis in PCT studies on individual control,
controls within one hierarchy – for example the “search for the
controlled variable” that Rick always promotes as the only true PCT
research.
Martin
Hi Rupert, I remember that a few years ago Kent was doing some computer modelling on this?
Warren
–
Regards,
Rupert
[From Rupert Young (2017.06.17 12.30)]
(Martin Taylor 2017.06.16.10.48]
Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
My first thought is that they are all aspects of communication.
Baby will quite probably cry when nobody is around to do anything about it. We adults may shout in pain or cry and smile when nobody is around. But I suspect that the action is nevertheless based on communication, such as looking for solace or sharing joy, because they work often enough when someone is around, and do not conflict with other controlled perceptions when nobody is there (unless one is a saboteur trying to avoid the notice of guards on a dark night).
Yep, I was thinking along the communication lines, but was also considering, as you say here, that we express when alone. However, I understand that when babies are neglected they stop crying even though they are still in discomfort. Is that true? It would support the communication hypothesis.
So, I was thinking about whether expression is a controlled perception or an output function. Perhaps both with a higher level perceiving general error and setting (output) a lower level "expression" variable. If the error is persistent the expression variable will build up along a scale from sad to anger etc. Maybe the single variable could represent a scale of both good to bad expressions.
Why, as Darwin noted, particular emotions are signified by the same body language in all communities, and as he thought also by different primate species, is another question. There presumably is something genetically determined about that commonality.
Yep, I was looking for his book online this week, I'll have to get a copy.
Rupert
[Frans Plooij (2017.06.18)]
Rupert, have a look a the following book:
Eibl-Eibesfeldt, I. (1989). Human Ethology. Hawthorne, New-York: Aldine de Gruyter.
He filmed in various cultures and claimed that the expression of facial expressions is universal. His films are stored in a database, I believe.
Frans
Dr. Frans X. Plooij
Zijpendaalseweg 73
6814 CE Arnhem
The Netherlands
Mobile: +31 6 460 888 20
Email: fplooij@kiddygroup.com
Tel.: +31 26 389 4494
Fax: +31 26 389 4493
Op 17 jun. 2017, om 12:34 heeft Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com het volgende geschreven:
[From Rupert Young (2017.06.17 12.30)]
(Martin Taylor 2017.06.16.10.48]
Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
My first thought is that they are all aspects of communication.
Baby will quite probably cry when nobody is around to do anything about it. We adults may shout in pain or cry and smile when nobody is around. But I suspect that the action is nevertheless based on communication, such as looking for solace or sharing joy, because they work often enough when someone is around, and do not conflict with other controlled perceptions when nobody is there (unless one is a saboteur trying to avoid the notice of guards on a dark night).Yep, I was thinking along the communication lines, but was also considering, as you say here, that we express when alone. However, I understand that when babies are neglected they stop crying even though they are still in discomfort. Is that true? It would support the communication hypothesis.
So, I was thinking about whether expression is a controlled perception or an output function. Perhaps both with a higher level perceiving general error and setting (output) a lower level “expression” variable. If the error is persistent the expression variable will build up along a scale from sad to anger etc. Maybe the single variable could represent a scale of both good to bad expressions.
Why, as Darwin noted, particular emotions are signified by the same body language in all communities, and as he thought also by different primate species, is another question. There presumably is something genetically determined about that commonality.
Yep, I was looking for his book online this week, I’ll have to get a copy.
Rupert
[From Rick Marken (2017.06.20.1100)]
Rupert Young (2017.06.16 15.45)–
RY: There are various PCT texts on emotion, but seem to be limited tothe perception of emotion, as related to physiological
changes. I am interested in the expression of emotions,
such as shouting in pain, crying, smiling etc, but haven’t seen
any explanations of their purpose and how they fit into PCT.
RY: Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
RM: I don’t know if it’s an insight but I think it’s important to distinguish intentional from unintentional expressions of emotion. I think the first expression of emotion – the crying and mewling of the infant, for example – are surely unintentional. But these expressions surely evolved to communicate distress (error in PCT terms) to their caregivers. One test of this is to see whether these expressions are seen in the newborns of organisms who don’t need to nurture helpless young.Â
RM: Eventually, these expressions are intentionally produced, as is evidenced by my three year old granddaughter’s occasional use of fake moaning to try to get what she wants. Of course, humans can become very sophisticated in their intentional use of emotional expression. The humans who are best at this get Academy Awards.Â
RM: I think the expression of emotion occurs both intentionally and unintentionally in adults. Indeed, the same expression can occur unintentionally (as when you smile at something you read) or intentionally (when you smile to communicate to someone that you like what they are saying, when you don’t). So these once unintentional expressions of emotion can become intentionally produced components of the process of controlling other perceptions, as the “bearing teeth in anger” that is done by bears to scare away competitors for mates.
BesT
ALAIA (typed for Rick)
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.â?
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
[From Rick Marken (2017.06.20.2005)]
Martin Taylor (2017.06.16.10.48)–
MT: The primary reason they [expression of emotions, I presume--RM] have not been much considered in PCT ispresumably the emphasis in PCT studies on individual control,
controls within one hierarchy – for example the “search for the
controlled variable” that Rick always promotes as the only true PCT
research.
RM: Sorry, I’ve been busy being led around by the nose by a 3 1/2 year old little girl so I haven’t had time to man the barricades to prevent new ideas from getting through the gates of PCT. But you’ll be happy to know that I I’ll be back as soon as she leaves. In the meantime, I would like to take a moment to point out that the “emphasis in PCT studies on individual control” using some version of the TCV does not preclude studies of interactions between two or more control systems. Bill did it in his CROWD simulation; Tom Bourbon did it in his two person interaction studies (derived from my two hand coordination studies), Kent did it in his modeling studies of conflict and I did it in modeling the results of some studies of personal space (done by students of Warren Mansell), where the space maintained between two people was derived from data on the space maintained by each of those people in interaction with others. But I am very sorry if, over the last 25+ years that you have been on CSGNet, I have single-handedly prevented you from doing research on the expression of emotion due to my emphasis on studies of individual control using the TCV. If only you have asked Bill Powers for permission.Â
Best
Rick (with permission from Alaia)
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.â?
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
[Martin Taylor 2017.06.20.23.30]
Sommer is ycummin in! (Northern Hemisphere only -- sorry).
[From Rick Marken (2017.06.20.2005)]
What a nice situation to be in. My two grandchildren are boys who
tower over me!
Yes, I am well aware of that and of those studies, but recently it
has seemed that you had forgotten it. I’m glad you haven’t.
Incidentally, I’ve been writing that cooperative interaction (and
some uncooperative interaction) between and among individuals can be
seen as a mutual use of the TCV on each other. Here’s the start of a
sentence from the introduction to the book I’m writing: “Since we
will argue later that a General Protocol Grammar (GPG) implements
the TCV in interpersonal interaction, …”
That's something I didn't know, or if I did, I had forgotten. I'd
like to know more, because it ties in with some studies I had to
evaluate many years ago when I was on the National Science and
Engineering Research Committee on Psychology, which was responsible
for funding much of the psychological research in Canada. I never
found out what that research led to, if anything, but if there has
been PCT research on it, I’m interested. Was it published?
I actually haven't had any interest in doing emotion research, nor
have I ever agreed that the TCV is the basic tool of PCT research,
so your proclamation of it hasn’t affected my work. But it has
disturbed my perception of what PCT novices might believe about PCT
research, and how it might well lead people who might do good PCT
research in a variety of areas to turn away, thinking PCT would be
of no use to them, being so restricted in its compass.
Martin
Martin Taylor (2017.06.16.10.48)–
MT: The primary reason they [expression of emotions, Ipresume–RM] have not been much considered in PCT is
presumably the emphasis in PCT studies on individual
control, controls within one hierarchy – for example
the “search for the controlled variable” that Rick
always promotes as the only true PCT research.
RM: Sorry, I've been busy being led around by the nose by
a 3 1/2 year old little girl so I haven’t had time to man
the barricades to prevent new ideas from getting through the
gates of PCT. But you’ll be happy to know that I I’ll be
back as soon as she leaves.
In the meantime, I would like to take a moment to point
out that the “emphasis in PCT studies on individual control”
using some version of the TCV does not preclude studies of
interactions between two or more control systems. Bill did
it in his CROWD simulation; Tom Bourbon did it in his two
person interaction studies (derived from my two hand
coordination studies), Kent did it in his modeling studies
of conflict
and I did it in modeling the results of some studies of
personal space (done by students of Warren Mansell), where
the space maintained between two people was derived from
data on the space maintained by each of those people in
interaction with others.
But I am very sorry if, over the last 25+ years that
you have been on CSGNet, I have single-handedly prevented
you from doing research on the expression of emotion due to
my emphasis on studies of individual control using the TCV.
If only you have asked Bill Powers for permission.
Hi Rupert,
I’m still reading past mesages and I found yours.
From: Rupert Young [mailto:rupert@perceptualrobots.com]
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2017 4:44 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Expression of emotions
[From Rupert Young (2017.06.16 15.45)]
There are various PCT texts on emotion, but seem to be limited to the perception of emotion, as related to physiological changes. I am interested in the expression of emotions, such as shouting in pain, crying, smiling etc, but haven’t seen any explanations of their purpose and how they fit into PCT.
Anyone have any insight into the expression of emotions?
HB : Emotions are part of control functioning of organism but are not yet appropriatelly placed into model on p.191 (B:CP, 2005).
This is one of the problems that is consequence of unfinnished diagram which I tried to solve. But it get stuck. If emotions could be appropriatelly placed into diagram you could easiliy understand all »behaviors« you mentioned, although »shouting in pain« you could explain with actual »relation« to physiological functioning of organism. Others are a little more complex.
So maybe you Rupert could organize a project about »upgrading« PCT model. You proved to be efficient. Specialy through talkings to Rick. I’m just guessing that you could be a person who could move PCT from »dead point«.
Best,
Boris
–
Regards,
Rupert
[From Rick Marken (2017.06.21.1630)]
Martin Taylor (2017.06.20.23.30)–
MT: I'm glad you haven't.Incidentally, I’ve been writing that cooperative interaction (and
some uncooperative interaction) between and among individuals can be
seen as a mutual use of the TCV on each other.Â
RM: It can also be viewed as a stimulus-response sequence. What is the evidence that these interactions involve mutual use of the TCV? The only evidence I could imagine is data showing that the members of the cooperative interaction are controlling for doing the TCV. How you would obtain such evidence, I don’t know, but it would be an example of using the TCV to determine whether people are controlling for a program perception; the program “carrying out the TCV”. That is, it would be  using the TCV to test for control of the TCV. That would be a fantastic demonstration if you could do it!
MT: That's something I didn't know, or if I did, I had forgotten. I'dlike to know more… Was it published?
 RM: I think so. You’d have to ask Warren.
MT: I actually haven't had any interest in doing emotion research, norhave I ever agreed that the TCV is the basic tool of PCT research,
so your proclamation of it hasn’t affected my work. But it has
disturbed my perception of what PCT novices might believe about PCT
research, and how it might well lead people who might do good PCT
research in a variety of areas to turn away, thinking PCT would be
of no use to them, being so restricted in its compass.
RM: If these novices don’t see that PCT research must center around testing to determine the variables around which behavior is organized – controlled variables – then they would be absolutely correct to think that PCT Is of no use to them because it’s not. PCT is not a tool to be used; it’s a tentative explanation of how the purposive behavior of organisms works. So PCT Is of no use to people doing conventional research, which is mistakenly aimed at studying the non-purposive behavior of organisms. And the TCV is by no means restricted in compass. Once you have some degree of confidence that a controlled variable has been identified you can then do all kinds of studies aimed at understanding how it is controlled – studies aimed at understanding the things that you seem most interested in, such as the order, gain and transport lag of the system(s) involved in controlling that variable. But all PCT research is centered around understanding what perceptions organisms control and how they control them.Â
BestÂ
Rick
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
RM: and I did it in modeling the results of some studies of
personal space (done by students of Warren Mansell), where
the space maintained between two people was derived from
data on the space maintained by each of those people in
interaction with others.