Failure Repot

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.27.1100)]

Some of you will be happy to hear that I have failed once again to make a dent in the “gates to the kingdom” of scientific psychology. I submitted a comment on an article that appeared in the January issue of American Psychologist (the journal that was the first to reject my “Revolution” paper, which was finally published in Review of General Psychology) and I just found out that even that little comment – basically a letter to the editor – was rejected. But I love the reason given for rejection: “insufficient interest” on the part of reviewers. So rather than have my efforts be a total waste of time I’ve put the letter up at my website. (it’s the first pick at http://www.mindreadings.com/articles.htm) for the amusement of my critics (and, hopefully, for the enjoyment of my colleagues). I don’t think you need to read the original AP article to get what the letter is about. Any comments on the letter (especially nice ones) would welcome.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1120 MST)]

Rick:

Why would anyone on this list be happy to hear of your failure?
I find no joy in it.

As for that “failure” (if it can truly be called
that), I have a hunch as to why they rejected it. In blunt terms you were
mainly tooting your own horn (lots of references to your own publications).
Add to that my observation that your comments were only obliquely related to
Rodgers’ article; you were instead using Rodgers’ paper to mount an
attack. Were I one of the editors I probably would have rejected it, too.

On the upside, your letter was very well-written (as usual) and
the arguments are still compelling.

As an old military man, I don’t believe in frontal assaults
unless I have far superior forces at my disposal and the costs of dislodging an
entrenched enemy are far less than the benefits of doing so. Absent that
superior force and compelling advantage, I prefer guerrilla warfare – or at
least some kind of flanking movement. Or, I might pass them by on the
first assault and come back and get them later once they’re surrounded
and ready to surrender. A siege might work, too, if I can control supply
lanes and possess a great deal of patience.

It seems to me that the only strategy being employed in relation
to PCT vs conventional psychology is a frontal assault. That doesn’t
seem to be working.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

www.nickols.us

fred@nickols.us

···

From: Control Systems
Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard
Marken
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:00 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Failure Repot

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.27.1100)]

Some of you will be happy to hear that I have failed once again to make a dent
in the “gates to the kingdom” of scientific psychology. I submitted a
comment on an article that appeared in the January issue of American
Psychologist
(the journal that was the first to reject my
“Revolution” paper, which was finally published in Review of General
Psychology
) and I just found out that even that little comment – basically a
letter to the editor – was rejected. But I love the reason given for
rejection: “insufficient interest” on the part of reviewers. So
rather than have my efforts be a total waste of time I’ve put the letter up at
my website. (it’s the first pick at http://www.mindreadings.com/articles.htm)
for the amusement of my critics (and, hopefully, for the enjoyment of my
colleagues). I don’t think you need to read the original AP article to get what
the letter is about. Any comments on the letter (especially nice ones) would
welcome.

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.27.1605 EDT)]

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1120 MST)]

It seems to me that the only strategy being employed in relation to PCT vs conventional psychology is a frontal assault. That doesn�t seem to be working.

BG: I had a similar reaction. For some time now I have felt that PCT represents a solution to a problem that conventional psychologists do not know they have. Until they realize this, they are unlikely to be interested.

One approach would be to suggest that there might be something lost in treating the organism simply as a black box. Rick does this when he says, "tones do not ordinarily cause key presses. Participants press the key when the tone comes on only if they have adopted this as a goal." I would go so far as to make this the central point of attack. Most people (even psychologists) would not take exception to the claim that organisms are goal-oriented. When that is acknowledged, it is possible to raise questions as to how we can know what those goals are and how the organism might go about achieving them. This approach would treat control a mechanism and not an end in itself. For this reason alone, it is unlikely to be met with enthusiasm by PCT practitioners.

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.27.1320)]

Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1120 MST) --

Why would anyone on this list be happy to hear of your failure?� I find no
joy in it.

Thanks for the quick reply, Fred. And for the nice words. Just a bit
of paranoia on my part;-)

As for that �failure� (if it can truly be called that), I have a hunch as to
why they rejected it.� In blunt terms you were mainly tooting your own horn
(lots of references to your own publications).

I don't really think that's the reason. I just looked at the Letters
to the Editor for the January issue of _American Psychologist_ and
every comment (except one) cites at least one -- in one case three --
references to a paper by the author of the comment. The author of
every comment is, indeed, "tooting their own horn". That's pretty much
what the comments are about. (Note that I also tooted the horn of
Powers and Runkel).

Add to that my observation
that your comments were only obliquely related to Rodgers� article; you were
instead using Rodgers� paper to mount an attack.� Were I one of the editors
I probably would have rejected it, too.

Most of the comments published in AP are criticisms of (which could be
seen as "attacks" on) the target article. But I think you may have
something here because I did use Rodgers article to "mount an attack".
The problem for the editor (and reviewers) may have been that the
"attack" was not on Rodgers' paper per se (which I praised) but on
conventional psychological methodology. But since Rodgers' paper was
ostensibly on a "methodological revolution in psychology" (it's in the
title of his paper) I thought it would be appropriate to "criticize"
the paper by showing what a real methodological revolution in
psychology might look like.

On the upside, your letter was very well-written (as usual) and the
arguments are still compelling.

Thanks!

As an old military man, I don�t believe in frontal assaults unless I have
far superior forces at my disposal and the costs of dislodging an entrenched
enemy are far less than the benefits of doing so...

It seems to me that the only strategy being employed in relation to PCT vs
conventional psychology is a frontal assault.� That doesn�t seem to be
working.

I guess I betrayed my ignorance of military theory (not surprising
given my wimpy, pacifist, non-violent inclinations) but I thought that
I _was_ doing a "flanking" guerrilla attack. My frontal assault was
submission of the "Revolution" paper to AP (back in 2007 or so). This
assault was, as you would expect, easily repelled (though I did manage
to get a minor victory by pushing it through one of the more poorly
defended gates of the citadel of conventional psychology). This AP
comment was basically a guerrilla maneuver, trying to get behind enemy
lines using the Rodgers article as camouflage. Obviously, my rouse was
easily detected and, again, repelled.

I think of my submission of the "Revolution" paper to _American
Psychologist_ as my first major frontal assault on conventional
psychology since I joined the PCT revolution back in 1980. I think of
all my other publications as flanking actions. But you say that the
only strategy employed in the PCT battle against conventional
psychology is a frontal attack. And you are the expert in military
strategy. So I would really appreciate it -- really -- if you could
suggest some strategies that might be successful. Lord knows whatever
I've been doing hasn't been.

Thanks again Fred.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1312 MST)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.04.27.1605 EDT)]

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1120 MST)]
  
It seems to me that the only strategy being employed in relation to PCT

vs conventional psychology is a frontal assault. That doesn't seem to be
working.

BG: I had a similar reaction. For some time now I have felt that PCT
represents a solution to a problem that conventional psychologists do not
know they have. Until they realize this, they are unlikely to be interested.

FN: I like that way of putting it and I tend to agree; conventional
psychologists don't see themselves or their field as having a problem of the
kind PCTers see.

BG: One approach would be to suggest that there might be something lost in
treating the organism simply as a black box. Rick does this when he says,
"tones do not ordinarily cause key presses. Participants press the key when
the tone comes on only if they have adopted this as a goal." I would go so
far as to make this the central point of attack.

FN: If memory serves, it was B.F. Skinner who argued that behaviorists had
to view the human being as a black box because we can't observe things like
goals and purposes, etc); hence the focus on observable stimuli and
responses. (Personally, I think treating people as a black box flies in the
face of formulating and testing hypotheses but what do I know?)
  
BG: Most people (even psychologists) would not take exception to the claim
that organisms are goal-oriented. When that is acknowledged, it is possible
to raise questions as to how we can know what those goals are and how the
organism might go about achieving them. This approach would treat control a
mechanism and not an end in itself.

FN: I think I agree. If there is agreement regarding humans being
goal-oriented, then that is certainly a leverage point. One key issue is
how the organism "knows" the goal has been achieved, that the specified
condition has been satisfied. Enter perception, I think.

BG: For this reason alone, it is unlikely to be met with enthusiasm by PCT
practitioners.

FN: Why? I don't see PCTers as viewing control as an end unto itself. I
think they very much view control as a mechanism, a process; in particular,
a closed-loop, feedback-governed process.

Fred Nickols
fred@nickols.us

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.27.1340)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.04.27.1605 EDT)–

Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1120 MST)]

It seems to me that the only strategy being employed in relation to PCT vs

conventional psychology is a frontal assault. That doesn’t seem to be working.

BG: I had a similar reaction. For some time now I have felt that PCT represents a solution to a problem that conventional psychologists do not know they have. Until they realize this, they are unlikely to be interested.

One approach would be to suggest that there might be something lost in treating the organism simply as a black box. Rick does this when he says, “tones do not ordinarily cause key presses. Participants press the key when the tone comes on only if they have adopted this as a goal.” I would go so far as to make this the central point of attack. Most people (even psychologists) would not take exception to the claim that organisms are goal-oriented. When that is acknowledged, it is possible to raise questions as to how we can know what those goals are and how the organism might go about achieving them. This approach would treat control a mechanism and not an end in itself. For this reason alone, it is unlikely to be met with enthusiasm by PCT practitioners.
Thanks, Bruce. This is very helpful. And I agree completely. I thought my point about the fact that “tones do not ordinarily cause key presses” does get at what is being overlooked in conventional psychology. In fact, that little revelation is the basis of the talk I’m planning to give at the Manchester CSG conference. The idea is to show the goal-oriented (purposeful) nature of the behavior in several “classic” psychological experiments, explain what the participant is being required to control (the likely controlled variable), the state in which this variable is to be maintained, and how this control is achieved. I might try to turn that into another paper then take whatever advice Fred gives me on how best to attack the citadel.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1345 MST)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.04.27.1320)]

RM: I think of my submission of the "Revolution" paper to _American
Psychologist_ as my first major frontal assault on conventional
psychology since I joined the PCT revolution back in 1980. I think of
all my other publications as flanking actions. But you say that the
only strategy employed in the PCT battle against conventional
psychology is a frontal attack. And you are the expert in military
strategy. So I would really appreciate it -- really -- if you could
suggest some strategies that might be successful. Lord knows whatever
I've been doing hasn't been.

FN: Let's not get carried away with me as expert on strategy. I was an
enlisted man - in the Navy, not a general or chief of staff (although to
"toot my own horn" Admiral Zumwalt did tell me once that I would have made a
good chief of staff).

The first piece of advice I'd offer is to change the metaphor; stop viewing
"them" as "the enemy." Maybe they're "infidels" who need to be "converted"
(although I don't like that one either). Maybe they're potential allies who
need to join us in combating some common enemy. Or, maybe they're just
folks like us who have their own blinders and lenses and see everything
through those. I don't know but I do know that combat is the last resort.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
www.nickols.us
fred@nickols.us

[From Fred Nickols (2010.04.27.1352)]

In terms of my earlier comment about changing the metaphor and
Bruce G’s observation about most conventional psychologists accepting the
notion that people are goal oriented, perhaps a useful metaphor would be that
of jiu-jitsu (i.e., of using your opponent’s energy as leverage).

Regards,

Fred Nickols

www.nickols.us

fred@nickols.us