Feedforward and Feedback

[From Bruce Abbott (2015.09.29.11:00 EDT)]

Last night I watched a talk on YouTube by Charles Gilbert of the McGovern Institute for Brain Research at MIT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwrwa4Sx4-U ) that summarized some of his and his collaborators’ work on the neuroscience of vision. At one point Gilbert said the following: “For every area [of the cerebral cortex] where there is a feedforward connection, there is also a feedback connection.” Bill Powers suggested long ago that this would prove to be the case, based on his theoretical view (HPCT) that the nervous system is organized as a hierarchy of control systems, with the outputs of higher levels of the hierarchy setting the reference levels for the control systems immediately below them in the hierarchy. However, although Gilbert’s statement could be taken as support for HPCT, his analysis of the role played by these feedback loops does not necessarily conform to their role as envisioned in HPCT.

Before I describe how Gilbert’s analysis differs from HPCT, it might be worth spending a bit of time talking about those two terms, “feedforward” and “feedback.” In neuroscience these terms usually (always?) refer to the processing of neural signals within specific areas of the cerebral cortex (or other brain structures, but here we are concerned with the cortex). In the visual system, neural impulses arrive first in area V1 of the occipital lobes at the very backs or the cerebral hemispheres. Adjacent areas of V1 receive input from adjacent areas of the retinas of the eyes (topographic organization). Many years ago Hubel and Wiesel identified columns of cortical neurons in V1 that respond best to lines of particular orientations that have been projected onto the corresponding areas of the retina from which the signals come. Thus, some cells respond best to vertical lines, some to a horizontal lines, and others to lines of various orientations between those two values. Thus, line orientation at a given location on the retina is indicated in cortical area V1 by which of the corresponding line-orientation cells is most active.

In the language of neuroscience, information from the retina is being “fed forward” to the thalamus and from there to cortical area V1, where analyzers signal the presence of lines of particular orientations falling across the corresponding areas of the retina. Presumably, these orientation signals are then “fed forward” to other cortical structures that become active when particular combinations of line angle are present (perhaps defining the edges of an object, for example). The idea is that there is a sequence of stages of processing that build up the perception of objects with their various visual properties, from the bottom level up. This is called “bottom up” processing. The perceptual hierarchy of HPCT defines a kind of bottom-up processing in which higher-level variables are built up from combinations of lower-level variables.

Gilbert notes that each higher-level mechanism involved in bottom-up processing has neural connections that go back to the lower-level structures, thus “feeding back” information from the higher structures to the lower ones. In HPCT these feedback loops are assumed to provide reference values from levels higher in the perceptual hierarchy to the levels immediately below. Gilbert suggests that these feedback connections provide the means through which processing can occur in “top down” fashion. For example, imagine that you are scanning a set of photographs looking for a particular person. Because you know what that person looks like, you have a kind of template that can be used in that search. Gilbert imagines that the signals feeding back from the high level in which you perceive that person to the lower levels set those lower levels to be differentially sensitive to those lower-level features that more or less match the template [my interpretation of Gilbert’s view; I could have it wrong]. In fact, Gilbert suggests that this is accomplished by setting the gains of the relevant feature detectors.

Not that, as used here, the term “feedback” does not necessarily refer to a variable’s value being fed back onto itself, as it does in PCT. Instead, it usually refers to signals being sent to earlier-level structures in the processing of the information. These “top down” influences set the lower-level processes to respond better to certain features present in their inputs than to others, so that, for example, when the image of that person you were looking for is present on a photograph, you immediately see it.

Gilbert illustrates this top-down process with one of those photos that seem to offer nothing more than black and white blobs when first examined. However, when you are shown a more detailed version of the image, reexamination of the original photo now produces instant recognition of the object in the picture. Seeing the more detailed photo told your perceptual mechanisms what to look for.

Bill Powers suggested that in some cases reorganization might involve altering the loop gain of a control system rather than changing the connections among components, so the idea of manipulating gains is not entirely foreign to PCT. However, Gilbert’s use of gains is to tune the appropriate lower-level filters to more easily detect features that match the template, should the be present in the input. Thus you become more likely to see what you expect to see, (or have learned to see), even if the match is somewhat sketchy.

Bruce

[Bruce Nevin 20151001.21:21 ET]

If I understand you correctly, Bruce, it suggests that in neuroscience literature ‘feedforward’ means afferent perceptual signals ascending the hierarchy and ‘feedback’ means efferent reference signals descending the hierarchy, and neither term has anything to do with negative-feedback control.

I see what appears to be the same usage by Jeff Hawkins (On Intelligence, 2004) as quoted in Madden’s ‘worldview’ book (Chapter 1, fn. 3). Writing of structures in the neocortex (75% of brain volume), Madden says it "sends information both up and down its hierarchical organization so that feedback can compare prediction to actual results. In Hawkins’s words (2004, p. 113):

For many years most scientists ignored these feedback connections. If your understanding of the brain focused on how the cortex took input, processed it, and then acted on it, you didn’t need feedback. All you needed were feedforward connections leading from sensory to motor sections of the cortex. But when you begin to realize that the cortex’s core function is to make predictions, then you have to put feedback into the model; the brain has to send information flowing back toward the region that first receives the inputs. Prediction requires a comparison between what is happening and what you expect to happen. What is actually happening flows up, and what you expect to happen flows down.

This is rather a bedevilment to communication! Kind of like “generative model” in statistics vs. in PCT or in linguistics, or “distribution” in statistics vs. in linguistics, anthropology, or ecology. It is important to realize that the sciences cluster around different sides of the Tower of Babel, be aware of other usages and the assumption-bombs that they carry, and purposefully disarm them.

BA:

Gilbert’s use of gains is to tune the appropriate lower-level filters to more easily detect features that match the template, should the be present in the input. Thus you become more likely to see what you expect to see, (or have learned to see), even if the match is somewhat sketchy.

BN: My work outlining how language might (eventually) be modeled depends strongly on this kind of process.

···

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2015.09.29.11:00 EDT)]

Last night I watched a talk on YouTube by Charles Gilbert of the McGovern Institute for Brain Research at MIT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwrwa4Sx4-U ) that summarized some of his and his collaborators’ work on the neuroscience of vision. At one point Gilbert said the following: “For every area [of the cerebral cortex] where there is a feedforward connection, there is also a feedback connection.� Bill Powers suggested long ago that this would prove to be the case, based on his theoretical view (HPCT) that the nervous system is organized as a hierarchy of control systems, with the outputs of higher levels of the hierarchy setting the reference levels for the control systems immediately below them in the hierarchy. However, although Gilbert’s statement could be taken as support for HPCT, his analysis of the role played by these feedback loops does not necessarily conform to their role as envisioned in HPCT.

Before I describe how Gilbert’s analysis differs from HPCT, it might be worth spending a bit of time talking about those two terms, “feedforward� and “feedback.� In neuroscience these terms usually (always?) refer to the processing of neural signals within specific areas of the cerebral cortex (or other brain structures, but here we are concerned with the cortex). In the visual system, neural impulses arrive first in area V1 of the occipital lobes at the very backs or the cerebral hemispheres. Adjacent areas of V1 receive input from adjacent areas of the retinas of the eyes (topographic organization). Many years ago Hubel and Wiesel identified columns of cortical neurons in V1 that respond best to lines of particular orientations that have been projected onto the corresponding areas of the retina from which the signals come. Thus, some cells respond best to vertical lines, some to a horizontal lines, and others to lines of various orientations between those two values. Thus, line orientation at a given location on the retina is indicated in cortical area V1 by which of the corresponding line-orientation cells is most active.

In the language of neuroscience, information from the retina is being “fed forward� to the thalamus and from there to cortical area V1, where analyzers signal the presence of lines of particular orientations falling across the corresponding areas of the retina. Presumably, these orientation signals are then “fed forward� to other cortical structures that become active when particular combinations of line angle are present (perhaps defining the edges of an object, for example). The idea is that there is a sequence of stages of processing that build up the perception of objects with their various visual properties, from the bottom level up. This is called “bottom up� processing. The perceptual hierarchy of HPCT defines a kind of bottom-up processing in which higher-level variables are built up from combinations of lower-level variables.

Gilbert notes that each higher-level mechanism involved in bottom-up processing has neural connections that go back to the lower-level structures, thus “feeding back� information from the higher structures to the lower ones. In HPCT these feedback loops are assumed to provide reference values from levels higher in the perceptual hierarchy to the levels immediately below. Gilbert suggests that these feedback connections provide the means through which processing can occur in “top down� fashion. For example, imagine that you are scanning a set of photographs looking for a particular person. Because you know what that person looks like, you have a kind of template that can be used in that search. Gilbert imagines that the signals feeding back from the high level in which you perceive that person to the lower levels set those lower levels to be differentially sensitive to those lower-level features that more or less match the template [my interpretation of Gilbert’s view; I could have it wrong]. In fact, Gilbert suggests that this is accomplished by setting the gains of the relevant feature detectors.

Not that, as used here, the term “feedback� does not necessarily refer to a variable’s value being fed back onto itself, as it does in PCT. Instead, it usually refers to signals being sent to earlier-level structures in the processing of the information. These “top down� influences set the lower-level processes to respond better to certain features present in their inputs than to others, so that, for example, when the image of that person you were looking for is present on a photograph, you immediately see it.

Gilbert illustrates this top-down process with one of those photos that seem to offer nothing more than black and white blobs when first examined. However, when you are shown a more detailed version of the image, reexamination of the original photo now produces instant recognition of the object in the picture. Seeing the more detailed photo told your perceptual mechanisms what to look for.

Bill Powers suggested that in some cases reorganization might involve altering the loop gain of a control system rather than changing the connections among components, so the idea of manipulating gains is not entirely foreign to PCT. However, Gilbert’s use of gains is to tune the appropriate lower-level filters to more easily detect features that match the template, should the be present in the input. Thus you become more likely to see what you expect to see, (or have learned to see), even if the match is somewhat sketchy.

Bruce

Â

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)]

···

Bruce Abbott (2015.09.29.11:00 EDT)–

BA: In the visual system, neural impulses arrive first in area V1 of the occipital lobes at the very backs or the cerebral hemispheres. Adjacent areas of V1 receive input from adjacent areas of the retinas of the eyes (topographic organization). Many years ago Hubel and Wiesel identified columns of cortical neurons in V1 that respond best to lines of particular orientations that have been projected onto the corresponding areas of the retina from which the signals come. Thus, some cells respond best to vertical lines, some to a horizontal lines, and others to lines of various orientations between those two values. Thus, line orientation at a given location on the retina is indicated in cortical area V1 by which of the corresponding line-orientation cells is most active.

RM: Thanks for bringing up the work of Hubel-Wiesel. I think it’s some of the best physiological psychology work ever done. And I’m not alone in this judgment; Hubel and Weisel won a Nobel for this work. And I also like this work because I think it is comfortably consistent with the PCT model of perception, not only because they discovered hierarchical levels of perception in the optical tract (retina to occipital lobe) but also because they show that the firing rate of afferent neurons at the different levels varies depending on the pattern of stimulation at the sensory surface, in regions called receptive fields – areas of the retina which are connected to specific optical neurons. Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies just as described in PCT:

p = f(v.1,v.2…vn).

where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2…v.n are the environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron. The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of the receptive field. Some neurons are connected to receptive fields that produce maximum p when the receptive field is stimulated with a vertical line; and minimum p when stimulated with a horizontal line. Some neurons, higher up in the visual system, produce maximum p to a moving line and minimum p to a stationary line, for example.

RM: The Hubel-Weisel work seemed to me like some of the best physiological support for the model of perception used in PCT. So I’m surprised that Bill didn’t refer to it in B:CP (I just looked in the Index and couldn’t find them).Perhaps it had to do with the way Hubel and Weisel interpreted their results. They looked at their single cell responses to stimulation of their receptive fields as “detectors” – vertical line detectors, motion detectors, etc.So, for example, a vertical line is “detected” when the cell is producing maximal output. But one could also interpret the result in a more PCT way. For example, the variation in firing rate of what Hubel and Weisel thought of as a vertical line detector could be seen as a measure of the angle of the line in the visual field; a low firing rate meaning a horizontal line, a moderate firing rate being a line at a 45% angle anda maximum firing rate being a vertical line.

RM: What do you think? Did Bill refer to Hubel and Weisel in any of his writings? Do you agree that their single cell recording work produced results that are consistent with the PCT model of perception?

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From MK (2015.10.07.1730 CET)]

Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)--

Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in
an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what
Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies
just as described in PCT:

p = f(v.1,v.2...vn).

where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2..v.n are the
environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive
field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that
transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron.
The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of
the receptive field.

This is an input-output approach to the understanding of a LCS -- a
neuron. Why is an approach that is deemed to be incorrect on the level
of organisms considered to be correct when the unit being analyzed is
an individual neuron or a collection ("network") of such neurons?

M

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.07.12.18]


[From MK (2015.10.07.1730 CET)]
Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)--

Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in
an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what
Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies
just as described in PCT:
p = f(v.1,v.2...vn).
where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2..v.n are the
environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive
field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that
transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron.
The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of
the receptive field.

This is an input-output approach to the understanding of a LCS -- a
neuron. Why is an approach that is deemed to be incorrect on the level
of organisms considered to be correct when the unit being analyzed is
an individual neuron or a collection ("network") of such neurons?
M
Because each individual segment of a loop is precisely an

input-output device, whether it’s a wire, a function, or a series of
functions.

![ctrl5.logo.gif|120x80](upload://oYl245TTONQVLjA7EyF5k1iPlA5.gif)

The value at P is entirely determined by the value at S if the

function in the yellow box (the perceptual function) is
single-valued and doesn’t change. The value at E is entirely
determined by the values at S and R under the same conditions.
Considered individually, they are not control loops. The control
loop is an “emergent property” of the connected structure, not of
any of its parts. A neuron might contain a control system
internally, but the assumption in defining a neural current is that
the summed output of the set of neurons is a function of their
inputs. You can challenge that assumption if you want, but that’s a
different issue from whether the parts of a control loop should be
treated differently when they are incorporated in a loop versus when
they are not.

Martin
···

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.07.0945)]

···

MK (2015.10.07.1730 CET)–

Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)–

RM: Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in

an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what

Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies

just as described in PCT:

p = f(v.1,v.2…vn).

RM: where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2…v.n are the

environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive

field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that

transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron.

The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of

the receptive field.

MK: This is an input-output approach to the understanding of a LCS –
a neuron.

RM: Actually, it’s an input-output approach to understanding one functional component of an LCS: the perceptual or input function component of the LCS. The perceptual function is an input-output component of the closed loop LCS, it is not a closed-loop system itself (although there are likely to be feedback loops within the neural net that implements the perceptual function but they can be ignored when all we want to do is show the functional relationship between environmental stimulation, v.1,v.2…vn, and neural current rate, p).

MK: Why is an approach that is deemed to be incorrect on the level

of organisms considered to be correct when the unit being analyzed is

an individual neuron or a collection (“network”) of such neurons?

RM: Because the components of a closed loop LCS are input-output transfer functions, in theory and in fact. Here are the set of equations that make up a closed loop LCS:

p = f(v.1,v.2…vn, h(o))

o = g (r-p)

RM: So the perceptual function, f(), transforms environmental input (which now explicitly includes the environmental effect of the system’s own output, h(o), as one of the environment variables) into a perceptual signal and the output function, g(), transforms the error signal, r-p, into the output that effects the input. Since v.1,v.2…vn are independent effects of the environment on p so that they constitute the disturbance, d, and assuming the simplest functions for f, h and g (linear) we usually write these equations as:

p = o + d

o = k (r-p)

RM: So what we have here are two simultaneous input-output functions that define a closed loop of causality; p caused by o (and d) and o caused by p (and r). When we solve these simultaneously (assuming high gain – large k – and dynamic stability) we get the equations that describe the behavior of a closed loop LCS (or any CS for that matter):

(1) p = r

(2) o = r - 1/k(d)

Equation 1 says that a control system controls its perception and equation 2 says it does it by acting to compensate for disturbances to the controlled perception.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.07.0950)]

ctrl5.logo.gif

···

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.07.12.18]


[From MK (2015.10.07.1730 CET)]
Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)--

Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in
an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what
Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies
just as described in PCT:
p = f(v.1,v.2...vn).
where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2..v.n are the
environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive
field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that
transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron.
The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of
the receptive field.

This is an input-output approach to the understanding of a LCS -- a
neuron. Why is an approach that is deemed to be incorrect on the level
of organisms considered to be correct when the unit being analyzed is
an individual neuron or a collection ("network") of such neurons?
M
MT: Because each individual segment of a loop is precisely an

input-output device, whether it’s a wire, a function, or a series of
functions.

RM: You beat me to it and did a better job to boot. Brave.

Best

Rick

The value at P is entirely determined by the value at S if the

function in the yellow box (the perceptual function) is
single-valued and doesn’t change. The value at E is entirely
determined by the values at S and R under the same conditions.
Considered individually, they are not control loops. The control
loop is an “emergent property” of the connected structure, not of
any of its parts. A neuron might contain a control system
internally, but the assumption in defining a neural current is that
the summed output of the set of neurons is a function of their
inputs. You can challenge that assumption if you want, but that’s a
different issue from whether the parts of a control loop should be
treated differently when they are incorporated in a loop versus when
they are not.

Martin

Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.07.1000)]

MT: Because each individual segment of a loop is precisely an input-output device, whether it's a wire, a function, or a series of functions.

RM: You beat me to it and did a better job to boot. Brave.

RM: I meant to type "Bravo" but your reply was brave too;-)
Best
Rick

--
Richard S. Marken

<Mind Readings.com

Author of <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=I7E8pgR7aOy78WcgsSKtz7vrKedbOX9zaH6agMdMLuk&s=PufDuF9vVM-oL8RATUlGNcNzyK7W5MGzsFM_zHLV3nA&e=&gt;Doing Research on Purpose.

Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

···

--
Richard S. Marken
<Mind Readings.com
Author of <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=I7E8pgR7aOy78WcgsSKtz7vrKedbOX9zaH6agMdMLuk&s=PufDuF9vVM-oL8RATUlGNcNzyK7W5MGzsFM_zHLV3nA&e=&gt;Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

Bear in mind that the rate of firing of the neuron is not a variable that the neuron controls, and cannot be, because it is a variable that the organism controls. If the cell tried to control its rate of firing, conflict with the organism of which it is part would result. I suppose it would be reorganized out of the loop.

Perhaps there is such a thing as ‘sociopathic’ neurons initiating some neuropathologies. Cancercells can be thought of as sociopathic.

···

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.07.1000)]

MT: Because each individual segment of a loop is precisely an input-output device, whether it’s a wire, a function, or a series of functions.

RM: I meant to type “Bravo” but your reply was brave too;-)

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

RM: You beat me to it and did a better job to boot. Brave.


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

This time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

ctrl5.logo.gif

I think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

I never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term »computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I appologize.

I didn’t want to interfere in Rick’s »brave« analyses of »p=firing rate of afferent neuron«. But I come in because of Matti and Martin and others who were probbaly misleaded by Rick.

So why Bill didn’t think of Comparator as a function ? It is the only place where control is going on. All other »functions« show some transformations of matter and energy. What is then comparator ?

Best,

Boris

P.S. I don’t mind if you want to think of Bill’s work as something that is not worth of »reall mening« as Rick thinks or something that Bill’s work is »guide« as Martin thinks. There will be always problems when you’ll want to simplify his work with abstractions. He didn’t put my observations about PCT just like that to show complexity of PCT. We knew what it means.

It’s obviously that sometimes is good to stick to Bill’s knowledge because he was a scientist and PCT is based on many physiological »facts« and other scientific knowledge. So it’s hard to tell where can you include your imagination and/or abstractions where you want.

When his statements or knowledge are supported with physiological or other evidences you can’t include your imgination, because you can violate »real knowledge« from other sciences. So I think  it’s good to citate Bill, as I did for example many times. Or you may look for other evidences for yourself. But pure »abstracting« can be misleading.

Barb please forgive me. I don’t know why I’m coming back to clear the mess Rick made as I’m always saying to me : »This is the last time«. But here it is. I just couldn’t watch the »deviation« of PCT to behaviorism (input-output). I hope you start to study PCT… II need to rest.

image00333.jpg

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:47 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Feedforward and Feedback

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.07.0950)]

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.07.12.18]

[From MK (2015.10.07.1730 CET)]
Rick Marken (2015.10.03.1400)--
Since, according to PCT, the firing rate, p, in
an afferent neuron corresponds to the value of a perceptual signal, what
Hubel and Weisel found is that the value of the perceptual signal varies
just as described in PCT:
p = f(v.1,v.2...vn).
where p is the firing rate of an afferent neuron, v.1, v.2..v.n are the
environmental variables stimulating different receptors in the receptive
field that is connected to that neuron and f() is the neural network that
transforms the receptive field input into the firing rate, p, of the neuron.
The nature of f() determines how p will vary as a function of stimulation of
the receptive field.
This is an input-output approach to the understanding of a LCS -- a
neuron. Why is an approach that is deemed to be incorrect on the level
of organisms considered to be correct when the unit being analyzed is
an individual neuron or a collection ("network") of such neurons?
M

MT: Because each individual segment of a loop is precisely an input-output device, whether it’s a wire, a function, or a series of functions.
cid:image001.gif@01D101EC.0DDCD160

RM: You beat me to it and did a better job to boot. Brave.

Best

Rick

The value at P is entirely determined by the value at S if the function in the yellow box (the perceptual function) is single-valued and doesn’t change. The value at E is entirely determined by the values at S and R under the same conditions. Considered individually, they are not control loops. The control loop is an “emergent property” of the connected structure, not of any of its parts. A neuron might contain a control system internally, but the assumption in defining a neural current is that the summed output of the set of neurons is a function of their inputs. You can challenge that assumption if you want, but that’s a different issue from whether the parts of a control loop should be treated differently when they are incorporated in a loop versus when they are not.

Martin

Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.

Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.08.12.35]

Maybe there's a language problem here. I hope that's all it is. A

“function” is something that computes a “result” when it is provided
with “arguments” if you are thinking of the abstraction, or an
“output” when provided with “inputs” if you are thinking of a
physical embodiment such as hardware or “wetware”.
A comparator can be written in abstract as e = C(r, p) where C(x, y)
≡ x-y.
A comparator can be shown as pseudo-hardware in the functional
diagram below. The only reason not to say “function” explicitly for
the comparator is that the function is fixed, always the same, so it
can be represented explicitly in the diagram as “e = r - p” without
taking up too much space and complicating the diagram, whereas the
other functions in the diagram differ for different control
situations and are either unknown or take up appreciable space to
write down.
When you get into more advanced versions of PCT, the comparator
function may not be a simple subtraction, but could have other
inputs/arguments. For example in some of my simulations I use a
“tolerance zone width” argument in the comparator function, just as
the output function in most of Bill’s simulations has arguments for
gain and leak rate (“slowing factor”). When you have these other
arguments, it becomes inconvenient to write out the function
explicitly in the diagram. It’s unnecessary, just as it is
unnecessary to write out a subroutine or an object method in the
main line of a program.
In fact, if you want to be precise, each of the “wires” in the
diagram represents a function for which output = f(input) where f(x)
= x. The little circle labelled qo is the same, but the circle at qi
is different. It is a summing function output = f(Env(qo), Dist(d))
where f(x, y) = x + y and “Env(qo)” is the output of the environment
function acting on qo and Dist(d) is the result of the Disturbance
function acting on d.
The take-home…just because something isn’t called a function
doesn’t mean it isn’t one.
Martin

image00333.jpg

···

On 2015/10/8 11:58 AM, Boris Hartman
wrote:

        This

time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

Â

        I

think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you
are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

Â

        I

never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term
»computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill
anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I
appologize.

Â

Â

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.08.1020)]

image00333.jpg

···

Martin Taylor (2015.10.08.12.35)–

  On 2015/10/8 11:58 AM, Boris Hartman

wrote:

        This

time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

        I

think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you
are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

        I

never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term
»computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill
anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I
appologize.

MT: Maybe there's a language problem here. I hope that's all it is. A

“function” is something that computes a “result” when it is provided
with “arguments” if you are thinking of the abstraction, or an
“output” when provided with “inputs” if you are thinking of a
physical embodiment such as hardware or “wetware”.

RM: Very nice and clear Martin!

MT: A comparator can be written in abstract as e = C(r, p) where C(x, y)

≡ x-y.

A comparator can be shown as pseudo-hardware in the functional

diagram below. The only reason not to say “function” explicitly for
the comparator is that the function is fixed, always the same, so it
can be represented explicitly in the diagram as “e = r - p” without
taking up too much space and complicating the diagram, whereas the
other functions in the diagram differ for different control
situations and are either unknown or take up appreciable space to
write down.

RM: Another way to represent the comparator function in the diagram is to add “r-p” to the box labeled “Comparator” and just have the line leaving the comparator box labeled e. This might make it clearer that, like the perceptual and output boxes in the diagram, the comparator box computes a function of its inputs (r and p) that results in the output e.

Best

Rick

When you get into more advanced versions of PCT, the comparator

function may not be a simple subtraction, but could have other
inputs/arguments. For example in some of my simulations I use a
“tolerance zone width” argument in the comparator function, just as
the output function in most of Bill’s simulations has arguments for
gain and leak rate (“slowing factor”). When you have these other
arguments, it becomes inconvenient to write out the function
explicitly in the diagram. It’s unnecessary, just as it is
unnecessary to write out a subroutine or an object method in the
main line of a program.

In fact, if you want to be precise, each of the "wires" in the

diagram represents a function for which output = f(input) where f(x)
= x. The little circle labelled qo is the same, but the circle at qi
is different. It is a summing function output = f(Env(qo), Dist(d))
where f(x, y) = x + y and “Env(qo)” is the output of the environment
function acting on qo and Dist(d) is the result of the Disturbance
function acting on d.

The take-home...just because something isn't called a function

doesn’t mean it isn’t one.

Martin


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Bruce Abbott (2015.10.08.1805 EDT)]

image00333.jpg

···

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 11:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Feedforward and Feedback

BH: This time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

BH: I think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

BH: I never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term »computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I appologize.

BA: In the nervous system a comparator is a structure that carries out the function of comparing the perceptual signal to the reference signal. Although these signals are carried in the form of neural impulses, Bill Powers maintained that they are analog rather than digital signals. That is, the value of a signal at any given moment is represented by the rate of firing of those neurons, or in the case of multiple parallel nerve fibers, the total neural current. Rate and neural current are continuous quantities as opposed to the discrete values with which a digital computer works.

Analog signals may be added, subtracted, differentiated, summed, etc. These manipulations produce an output whose value depends on the input signal values and the function being applied to them. In the case of a simple comparator, the function is subtraction; the rate of firing of the output neurons is proportional to the difference between the rates of firing of the neural pathways carrying the reference signal and those carrying the perceptual signal. Mathematically we can represent this function as e = rp,< where e is the output of the function, which we call the error signal.

In addition to the comparator, a control system includes other mechanisms that work in a similar fashion. For example, inputs to the perceptual mechanism generate a stream of neural impulses whose rate represents the strength of the perceptual signal. The way in which the inputs to the perceptual mechanism relate to the perceptual signal p is the perceptual function, which can be represented as a mathematical formula.  Thus a comparator is no different a perceptual mechanism, an output mechanism, etc. They all are embodied as physical structures that impose certain relationships between their inputs and outputs, which we call functions and represent mathematically.

In our digital computer simulations the signals are represented as real numbers and the functions relating inputs to outputs as mathematical formulas. If done with care, the numbers computed during each iteration of the control loop behave much like the analog signals of the system being modeled. The digital computer is being used to simulate these analog processes.

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.08.12.35]

This time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

image00333.jpg

I think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

I never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term »computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I appologize.

Maybe there’s a language problem here. I hope that’s all it is. A “function” is something that computes a “result” when it is provided with “arguments” if you are thinking of the abstraction, or an “output” when provided with “inputs” if you are thinking of a physical embodiment such as hardware or “wetware”.

HB :

Maybe it’s a language problem here, but as I see the nterpretation of what is happening in comparator (neruon) and in the loop consequently, has to be in accordance ti other scienes. . I don’t know how you make interpretatin of »mismatch« or »compute«, because Bill didn’t define it, but I’m sure we don’t understand terms the same.

But I’m quite sure that you will not find anywhere in the loop nothing such as »compute«, only in comparator, because it’s physiologically operatng differently as other »functions« in the loop. I think it has special meaning becasue it’s supported with physiological evidences.

A comparator can be written in abstract as e = C(r, p) where C(x, y) ≡ x-y.
A comparator can be shown as pseudo-hardware in the functional diagram below. The only reason not to say “function” explicitly for the comparator is that the function is fixed, always the same, so it can be represented explicitly in the diagram as “e = r - p” without taking up too much space and complicating the diagram, whereas the other functions in the diagram differ for different control situations and are either unknown or take up appreciable space to write down.

HB :

I don’t beleive that only »taking to much space« is a problem.

I think that Bill simplifyed a little by subtraction of »r-p« to represent »mismatch« in neuron. But I’m sure there is much more behind it as you can present it with manipulating simbols.

Nervous system is not workinjng that simple. But if you think it does, you are free to beleive. Anyway PCT explores how nervous system function, it doesn’t determine how »reality« function. My oppinion is, if we want to understand events in nervous system, which is mostly presented by comparator, we have to understand some main physiological principles which are explained in Bill’s book »B:CP«.

When you get into more advanced versions of PCT, the comparator function may not be a simple subtraction, but could have other inputs/arguments. For example in some of my simulations I use a “tolerance zone width” argument in the comparator function, just as the output function in most of Bill’s simulations has arguments for gain and leak rate (“slowing factor”). When you have these other arguments, it becomes inconvenient to write out the function explicitly in the diagram. It’s unnecessary, just as it is unnecessary to write out a subroutine or an object method in the main line of a program.

HB : Well Martin this is probably your intepretation, as we haven’t see Bill’s interpretation I can’t comment. But as I said you are free to beleive waht you want. On the end we have to be in accordandce with the evidence that other sciences offer.

In fact, if you want to be precise, each of the “wires” in the diagram represents a function for which output = f(input) where f(x) = x. The little circle labelled qo is the same, but the circle at qi is different. It is a summing function output = f(Env(qo), Dist(d)) where f(x, y) = x + y and “Env(qo)” is the output of the environment function acting on qo and Dist(d) is the result of the Disturbance function acting on d.

HB : Please translate it into qualitative form…

<

The take-home…just because something isn’t called a function doesn’t mean it isn’t one.

HB : As I said Martin. You are free to beleive what you want.

Boris

Martin

···

From: Martin Taylor [mailto:mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:00 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Feedforward and Feedback

On 2015/10/8 11:58 AM, Boris Hartman wrote:

Nice explantion Bruce, but we are still exploring how nervous system works. Do you understand from your explanation ?

Best,

Boris

image00333.jpg

···

From: Bruce Abbott [mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:06 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Feedforward and Feedback

[From Bruce Abbott (2015.10.08.1805 EDT)]

From: Boris Hartman [mailto:boris.hartman@masicom.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 11:59 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Feedforward and Feedback

BH: This time my assumtpion is that Matti is right.

BH: I think the problem is not so simple, as by my oppinion you are driving problem out of physiological evidences.

BH: I never so Bill saying that »comparator« is a »function«. Term »computes« is for me not equal to »function«. If Bill anywhere mentioned that comparator is a function, I appologize.

BA: In the nervous system a comparator is a structure that carries out the function of comparing the perceptual signal to the reference signal. Although these signals are carried in the form of neural impulses, Bill Powers maintained that they are analog rather than digital signals. That is, the value of a signal at any given moment is represented by the rate of firing of those neurons, or in the case of multiple parallel nerve fibers, the total neural current. Rate and neural current are continuous quantities as opposed to the discrete values with which a digital computer works.

Analog signals may be added, subtracted, differentiated, summed, etc. These manipulations produce an output whose value depends on the input signal values and the function being applied to them. In the case of a simple comparator, the function is subtraction; the rate of firing of the output neurons is proportional to the difference between the rates of firing of the neural pathways carrying the reference signal and those carrying the perceptual signal. Mathematically we can represent this function as e = rp, where e is the output of tthe function, which we call the error signal.

In addition to the comparator, a control system includes other mechanisms that work in a similar fashion. For example, inputs to the perceptual mechanism generate a stream of neural impulses whose rate represents the strength of the perceptual signal. The way in which the inputs to the perceptual mechanism relate to the perceptual signal p is the perceptual function, which can be represented as a mathematical formula. Thus a comparator is no different a perceptual mechanism, an output mechanism, etc. They all are embodied as physical structures that impose certain relationships between their inputs and outputs, which we call functions and represent mathematically.

In our digital computer simulations the signals are represented as real numbers and the functions relating inputs to outputs as mathematical formulas. If done with care, the numbers computed during each iteration of the control loop behave much like the analog signals of the system being modeled. The digital computer is being used to simulate these analog processes.

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.09.11.00]

As are you, I suppose. But so are all the people who believe in

invisible rabbits.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that there is a difference of
kind between describing what something does and describing how it
does what it does. Dismissing either because it isn’t the other is
hardly helpful. Combining them into a mutually supportive pair of
descriptions is.
Martin

···

On 2015/10/9 10:39 AM, Boris Hartman
wrote:

        HB

: As I said Martin. You are free to beleive what you want.

Boris

MT: One thing to keep in mind, however, is that there is a difference of kind between describing what something does and describing how it does what it does.

PY: Yes, the separation of implementation and interface, known to programmers as “information hiding”.

“In computer science,information hiding is the principle of segregation of the design decisions in a computer program that are most likely to change, thus protecting other parts of the program from extensive modification if the design decision is changed.”

PY: In reference to a specific function, a programmer is more likely to modify the “how it does it” versus the “what it does”.

PY: Can you please expand upon the significance of information hiding in PCT?

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.09.11.00]

···

From: Martin Taylor [mailto:mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:05 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Feedforward and Feedback

On 2015/10/9 10:39 AM, Boris Hartman wrote:

HB : As I said Martin. You are free to beleive what you want.

Boris

As are you, I suppose. But so are all the people who believe in invisible rabbits.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that there is a difference of kind between describing what something does and describing how it does what it does. Dismissing either because it isn’t the other is hardly helpful. Combining them into a mutually supportive pair of descriptions is.

Martin

HB:

I agree

Boris