First example of MOL on Mirabilis ICQ

[David1]

I am attaching the transcript of a MOL conversation I had on the
Mirabilis ICQ.

The person is called Inky. She gave permission for me to share it, as
you will note at the end of the conversation.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome. I am hoping we can use
examples such as these to learn more about the MOL and improve our
skills.

By the way, when I signed off, there were two more people who wanted
to give it a try.

Enjoy.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: First example of MOL on Mirabilis ICQ
Date: 1/3/98

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       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sat Jan 03 19:30:47 1998

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<David> Hello. Thanks for trying this.
<David> We can start with any subject or topic you want and see where it takes us.
<Inky> Is this for real?
<Inky> You want me to pick a topic?
<David> Yes. I am a licensed Psychologist in NJ. Yes.
<Inky> Ok, what about children?
<David> Fine. Tell me your experience when you think about children.
<Inky> I love children and I get very excited about their potential - I like working with them
<David> Tell me more about the work you do with them.
<David> Still there?
<Inky> I am a youth worker at my church and I spend a lot of time with kids - teaching them spiritual principles and just listening to them
<David> What is it like to do what you just described?
<Inky> yes, I can see you even when I am not in the chat - I am busy downloading something
<Inky> Meaning?
<Inky> You want to know how I feel or the details of what I do?
<David> Can you compare it to any other experiences which would help me understand what it is like for you when you work with children.
<Inky> It is like mining for gold, I think, and striking a vein every so often - thrilling but hard work - with just a promise and hope to keep you going
<David> Very beutifully said. What happens after you strike the gold?
<Inky> Hallelujah - mostly! But then the hard work really start - you have to make sure that it is purified and moulded properly
<David> Tell me how you know when it is purified and moulded properly.
<Inky> You never do, really. Time tells, but you are not around to see the results most of the time. It is a question of faith.
<David> What would be a desireable outcome for you?
<Inky> A child that grows up to become a responsible,mature Christian with a solid understanding of Scripture and a personal relationship with the Lord - eventually seeing him/her in heaven
<Inky>
<Inky> Does that make sense to you?
<David> I am thinking about it.
<David> So, by the work you do with children, you are helping them go to heaven if you are successful.
<Inky>
<Inky> that is my ultimate aim, yes.
<David> What approaches seem to work best for you?
<Inky> I spend time with them, give of myself and share what Jesus means to me. I try not to preach, ever, but to live a life that personifies what I believe in - and I have fun!!!
<Inky> Are you still there?
<Inky>
<David> Yes. I think I am in the wrong style. I can't see you when you are typing.
<Inky> Can you see what I type afterwards?
<David> Yes.
<David> You must receive a very warm reception by the children.
<Inky> We get on well.
<David> How do you handle discipline problems, if they occur.
<Inky> I spank. With parents' approval, of course, and depending on the problem. Otherwise I handle it according to the situation and depending on the child's age.
<Inky>
<David> When you have to do this, what are your experiences?
<Inky> I am not emotional about discipline. It is essential if you want results - children are born without consciences. I do it because I know that I will have to do it only once to achieve results.
<Inky>
<David> Only once?
<Inky> I discipline only for direct disobedience and I never do it unexpectedly - I try to be consistent.
<Inky>
<Inky> Yes. You discipline properly and the child learns fast.
<David> Can you give me a specific, recent example?
<Inky>
<David> Still there?
<Inky> Ok, I was working with a group of pre-schoolers and I explained to them the rules applicable - made sure that they understood how, why etc. One little boy then punched another in the face and stole his tuckshop money. I asked the little boy (guilty paty) to tell me waht he did - not accepting lies or excuses - and he confessed all. I smacked him on the bottom and then held him while he cried and told him that he was forgiven and that I loved him. He was the most obedient child there for the rest of the week. His mother was astounded.
<Inky>
<David> What moment in this example had the strongest feeling linked to it, for you?
<Inky> When I held him on my lap and he kissed me. I knew that I managed to get through to him.
<David> At this moment, what thoughts/feelings did you notice within yourself?
<Inky>
<Inky> Do you mean right now or when it happened?
<David> When it happened?
<Inky> I felt loving and maternal. No anger.
<David> And now?
<Inky> relieved that I do not have to look after him all the time!!!!
<Inky>
<Inky> Ok, tell me what this is about???
<David> Maybe this is a good place to stop. What did you think about the experience?
<Inky> I am still trying to work out what you are doing.
<David> Ok. But how did you experience it? I will explain in a moment.
<Inky> It felt weird to tell a stranger about this, but it was not a bad experience. I am perhaps not the best study-material!!
<Inky>
<David> You did fine. Did you feel that you learned anything about yourself?
<Inky> Not really. I knew all that already. Did you learn anything about me?
<Inky> I just felt that it was too one-sided. I cannot even go to my gyneacologist and just talk about myself!
<David> Yes. I feel as though I got to know you a little. You might be interested in looking up Ed Ford on the internet search engines. He has some interesting ideas about discipline.
<David> I am acting only as a guide.
<David> It is designed to help a person increase self-awareness.
<Inky> Have you ever heard of Dr James Dobson?
<Inky>
<David> yes
<David> Dare to Discipline, I think.
<Inky> That's it. I learned a lot from him. What do you think of his attitude?
<David> I don't really know his work all that well. If you are following his approach, it sounds pretty good.
<Inky>
<Inky> I am. My kids were brought up like that.
<David> Do I have your permission to save this file in order to share it with others who are exploring this method?
<Inky> If you promise not to get the vigilantes onto me for spanking - it is very controversial. Understand that I do NOT ABUSE CHILDREN.
<David> I promise. It never crossed my mind. You are loving and maternal. I am sure that the spanking part does not cause any physical damage. It just gets the attention.
<Inky> We are on the same wavelength then. OK - save it with my blessing.
<David> If you would like to give this a second try some time, my IRQ # is 6644895
<David> Thanks. I will say goodbye and thanks.
<Inky> I will add you to my contact list, ok?
<Inky>
<Inky> Goodbye and God bless you.
<Inky> cheers vir eers (Afrikaans for bye)
<David> Thanks.
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[R_Marken]

[From Rick Marken (980103.1855)]

David Goldstein (1/3/98) --

I am attaching the transcript of a MOL conversation I had on the
Mirabilis ICQ.

Thanks David.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

It seems like you were often trying to guide the "tourist"
up a level before the she gave you any opportunities. For
example, you said:

What is it like to do what you just described?

before she had said much about what she had described.
I think at this early point in the session it would be better
to just ask the tourist to describe what she does in more
detail; get her "working the level" of consciousness that
she's at -- the one that happened to be concerned with
her activities involved in shaping the kids up for heaven.

Also. I didn't see you taking advantage of all the "up a level"
opportunities provided by the tourist. Actually, there didn't
seem to be very many such opportunities; the one that was clearest
to me actually happened when the session was officially ended --
when your tourist said:

It felt weird to tell a stranger about this, but it was not a
bad experience. I am perhaps not the best study-material!!

Here's where you might have asked something like "how do you
feel about being study material?" or something like that.

Anyway, nice work. I can see that the net lags can be a problem.
Good start.

Best

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[Bill_Powers1]

[From Bill Powers (980104.0726 MST)]

January 4th already! Where has 1998 gone?

From: David Goldstein
Subject: First example of MOL on Mirabilis ICQ
Date: 1/3/98

I am attaching the transcript of a MOL conversation I had on the
Mirabilis ICQ.

The person is called Inky. She gave permission for me to share it, as
you will note at the end of the conversation.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome. I am hoping we can use
examples such as these to learn more about the MOL and improve our
skills.

By the way, when I signed off, there were two more people who wanted
to give it a try.

This was a tricky one, wasn't it? Most people don't start right out with
their religious convictions, and I don't blame you for sidestepping that
issue when it was presented. I think you showed considerable
self-discipline during this session. And I'm not at all clear about what I
would have done.

The basic problem here is that this person is not asking for help in
clarifying attitudes toward raising children or concerning religion. In
fact, it never became clear why this person wanted to try the MOL, other
than curiosity. The only possible hint of a problem came toward the end,
after the spanking description:

<Inky> If you promise not to get the vigilantes onto me for spanking - it

is very controversial. Understand that I do NOT ABUSE CHILDREN.

It's too bad this couldn't have come up much earlier -- maybe you'll get a
second chance. This is clearly a concern _about_ what she has been telling
you, and about what other people might think about it. In her capitalized
denial that she abuses children, she is saying that thoughts about abusing
children are in the back of her mind. This would be a clear lead into the
subject about her thoughts on abusing children, what others think, fear of
vigilantes -- really a whole lot of things. It's hard -- no, useless -- to
predict where she would go with this, but it would clearly be up a level.

I wonder what might have happened if you had responded differently here:

<David> You must receive a very warm reception by the children.
<Inky> We get on well.
<David> How do you handle discipline problems, if they occur.

That's clearly fishing for something. I'd just ask her to tell me more
about getting on well with the children. I'm sure that after a bit of this,
the spanking would have come up (when she finished telling you about how
wonderful her relationships with the children are).

I think the following sort of exchange gets the conversation off the track:

<David> Very beutifully said. What happens after you strike the gold?
<Inky> Hallelujah - mostly! But then the hard work really start - you

have to make sure that it is purified and moulded properly

<David> Tell me how you know when it is purified and moulded properly.
<Inky> You never do, really. Time tells, but you are not around to see the

results most of the time. It is a question of faith.

<David> What would be a desireable outcome for you?

These questions and answers are not about the here and now, but about
generalizations and metaphors. I would ask more about what "striking gold"
means -- what's an example, how she feels about it when it happens, what
thoughts go through her mind when it happens. Then there's "purifying and
moulding" -- there are actually too many ways this thing could go even to
guess what the next level up would be about.

There's one trap you fell into there: you ask how she knows when it is
purified and moulded properly, but you don't ask her what she means by
purified and moulded. I would go for that first. What is purified? What is
moulded? Examples of purifying? Examples of moulding? I think that might
have led directly to the spanking without your having to bring up the
subject of discipline.

Of course she presents you with a big neon sign about background ideas:
"it's a matter of faith." I think that like you I would have avoided this.
But I'm not sure that the MOL can really work if we avoid getting into such
things. It's not as though we're going to argue about it or invalidate it
-- but even asking questions about it seems like a risky business.

I think maybe the best course of action is simply to wait for some kind of
hint about a higher level to appear. Maybe wait for some sign of a problem,
and until something shows up just get the person to expand on the same
subject. My hunch is that if you had just kept asking about how she gets
along with the children in more and more detail, you wouldn't have had to
ask about discipline. The spanking would have come up.

One thought is in the back of my mind: who are these "Mirabilis" people? Is
there some sort of evangelical Christian thing behind it? If so, you may
get a somewhat biased sample of volunteers. I am extrapolating from one
case, of course -- dumb.

Best,

Bill P.